HTP mig2400 wiring question

[93fs]

Trying to troubleshoot my mig, I’ve had it for a year or so and used it on and off for mostly exhaust and body work application and so far I love it, it has a voltage/amperage readout, and I decided to see what it would put out on some heavier gauge metal, so I grabbed some 1/8” steel and cranked the voltage settings up and though it seems to be welding decent, the highest amperage I saw on .030 wire was 160 amps, after watching a couple others on YouTube with the same machine, similar settings, were around 200 amps. So today I decided to throw some .035 in it, same result, wide open on the settings only got me to 172 amps.
So just for fun I looked over the wiring in the garage. I’m far from an electrician, but the main breaker in the garage is a 100amp, and the welder is on a 30amp breaker with 10-2 wire run to the plug. I’d think if the garage wiring was the problem it’d just pop the breaker, but is that not the case? Is it possible I’m not “flowing” enough current to get the full potential from the machine? I plan on calling HTP at some point to pick their brain as well, but I figured someone on here may have the answer. I have no problem putting a bigger breaker and wire in, but I don’t want to waste the money if it’s not needed. It looks like the plug on the welder itself is labeled 10-2 as well for what it’s worth, also the receptacle is roughly 40ft from the breaker box.


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[dnschmidt]

I think you're on the right track. Confirm what you see on the machine with an amp clamp in the breaker box if you can. This machine is transformer based and is not an inverter which are much more power efficient. HTP makes fantastic stuff but I think you're getting voltage drop using only 10 gauge wire. Measuring the voltage drop is likely much easier than getting an amp clamp on one of the hot legs.

 

[sberry]

What wire does it call for in the manual? 10 is not a problem, if it was you would be tripping the breaker. Check if the ground clamp gets hot.

 

[sberry]

You changed wire and ran it on the same settings,,,, they will need to be changed along with the wire. This is an adjustment problem. You should be able to turn it up far enough to trip that breaker with a bit of run. It could use a 50 with the same 10 wire. It's rated in is only 40 at rated output which is well above your 170. Probably pulling 35 or so. It's just big enough to have a 10 cord, 40 ft is really not much. Especially at low settings.'

 

[LXCam]

I'd confirm the voltage drop. If you have the ability or maybe a buddy does. Confirm the voltage at the breaker with no load. Then get a reading with you running it WFO. If you see greater then a ~5% drop do the same test at the buss (bypassing the breaker). If the value of voltage drop reduces you've either got a issue with the connections or the breaker. If you don't see anything at the panel open up the machine and perform the same test at the termination points. If you get almost identical readings at the machine as you did at the panel something's up with the machine. If you see a major discrepancy then start checking the receptacle, cord end and cord to the machine.


Edit; A down and dirty voltage drop calc relative to your stated output current based upon a true applied 30 volt output at full load amps (rated 240A) and actual 172. You'd see the input voltage at the machine around 172 volts based on a true 240V input.

That's assuming that Venus and mars have aligned with Uranus and you've got your tongue clamped tightly between your cheek and gums and you're not cross eyed. But it gives you something for consideration. That calc BTW only applied to a transformer based machine and not a inverter unit.

One last thing. Most breakers will not instantaneously trip once max or excess current rating is reached. They'll handle an moderate overload for a wee bit of time before opening.

 

[93fs]

thanks for the responses, the piece of scrap i was using also wasn't in the greatest shape, i still plan on doing some more dialing in. but i am correct in thinking that if the machine was attempting to pull more than the breaker allowed it would trip it? and if the welders cord is a 10-2 that switching to 8-2 wouldn't be much of a benefit? as far as welder specs, i found after this post that it has a 40amp draw. but even in the manual couldn't find any wiring recommendations. also comparing to others, it seems that my wire speed typacally has to be cranked way above the door chart, and above what others have experienced. which also could be explained by not having the correct settings on my part, but with all of it together it made me wonder if something in the welder isnt happy.

 

[LXCam]

Read my edited post. Don't go changing anything on the machine just yet if you have the ability to do the voltage drop tests.

 

[93fs]

I'd confirm the voltage drop. If you have the ability or maybe a buddy does. Confirm the voltage at the breaker with no load. Then get a reading with you running it WFO. If you see greater then a ~5% drop do the same test at the buss (bypassing the breaker). If the value of voltage drop reduces you've either got a issue with the connections or the breaker. If you don't see anything at the panel open up the machine and perform the same test at the termination points. If you get almost identical readings at the machine as you did at the panel something's up with the machine. If you see a major discrepancy then start checking the receptacle, cord end and cord to the machine.


Edit; A down and dirty voltage drop calc relative to your stated output current based upon a true applied 30 volt output at full load amps (rated 240A) and actual 172. You'd see the input voltage at the machine around 172 volts based on a true 240V input.

That's assuming that Venus and mars have aligned with Uranus and you've got your tongue clamped tightly between your cheek and gums and you're not cross eyed. But it gives you something for consideration. That calc BTW only applied to a transformer based machine and not a inverter unit.

One last thing. Most breakers will not instantaneously trip once max or excess current rating is reached. They'll handle an moderate overload for a wee bit of time before opening.

so basically you're saying if the welder is truly only putting out 172, then all its probably being supplied is 172? (in a perfect world)

 

[sberry]

This machine is not suffering from too small of a wire unless there is a bad connection. This is a setting problem or operator error. Inhave a little Linc that the door charts are terrible on.
Turning up wire speed increases output amps. You then need to turn up voltage to get it to sizzle it off. Both settings need to increase with 035 wire.
Increasing the input wire to 8 would only help drop a volt, maybe 2, even if it was 5 it would be moot.

 

[LXCam]

so basically you're saying if the welder is truly only putting out 172, then all its probably being supplied is 172? (in a perfect world)

Ya. I know the values come across as odd but that's what it calcs out too.

Rated output: 240A @ 30V = 7200 watts
Actual. 172A @ 30V = 5160W.

5160 / 7200 = ~28% loss

240V X .72 = 172V.

Like I said, that's down and dirty with a whole bunch of assumptions. And if you have a substantial voltage drop and you're total wiring length isn't a couple hundred feet for the 10ga, you got a connection (conductivity) problem

 

[sberry]

Ya. I know the values come across as odd but that's what it calcs out too.

Rated output: 240A @ 30V = 7200 watts
Actual. 172A @ 30V = 5160W.

5160 / 7200 = ~28% loss

240V X .72 = 172V.

Like I said, that's down and dirty with a whole bunch of assumptions. And if you have a substantial voltage drop and you're total wiring length isn't a couple hundred feet for the 10ga, you got a connection (conductivity) problem

This is confused at way best.

 

[LXCam]

One other thing after reading the spec of this machine. This unit is rated 3/8-1/2". You'd blow right thru that 1/8" if you had her set for wide open throttle.

 

[LXCam]

This is confused at way best.

Let's not go there berry, I make a living at this.

 

[sberry]

At what? Because it putting out 172 doesn't mean it's lost, only that it's only putting this out which is a function of machine setting.

 

[93fs]

The 172 number itself isn’t what’s really bothering me, from what I’ve read 172 should be enough for 1/8”. My main concern is I’ve seen identical welders, on lower settings and thinner wire go to 200-210. So I’m wondering what’s making mine different, it very well could be the meter on the welder just isn’t accurate. Which I should be able to verify that once I test a few things


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[LXCam]

The 172 number itself isn’t what’s really bothering me, from what I’ve read 172 should be enough for 1/8”. My main concern is I’ve seen identical welders, on lower settings and thinner wire go to 200-210. So I’m wondering what’s making mine different, it very well could be the meter on the welder just isn’t accurate. Which I should be able to verify that once I test a few things


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Then you might consider editing your first post. You stated you opened her up all the way and hit the ceiling at 172 amps, least that's how I read it which is why I went down that road.

 

[93fs]

Then you might consider editing your first post. You stated you opened her up all the way and hit the ceiling at 172 amps, least that's how I read it which is why I went down that road.

I hit the 172 with the voltage all the way up, and wire almost all the way (enough to get the proper sizzle) with the welder matching the settings as someone else I saw I was at about 135-145. And with the welder wide open on .030 wire the results were almost identical


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[dnschmidt]

HTP makes the best welders that exist in my opinion. Call HTP and have them connect you to Peter Zila (who is a welding savant) and he'll get to the bottom of this. This machine should burn holes through 1/8" material. I maintain my position that you're losing voltage somewhere. The recommendation of making absolutely certain that you've got a good ground is completely valid as well.

 

[sberry]

Wire speed is amps, volts is what make it sizzle. Changing voltage has only a small effect on current or amps. That machine should put out quite a little more with 035.
Is it on the right polarity? I just had one come in for service, no top end power, wrong polarity, not the first one. How are they shipped from the factory? The Hobarts and Lincs come straight with a roll of fc.

 

[93fs]

here’s a pic of the read out with the .035 not sure if showing the voltage matters much

edit: this is a screenshot from a video i took, welder only has a readout as you weld. this one actually wasnt wide open. coarse voltage on 4, fine voltage on 5 out of 6 , still has one step to go, and wire speed was 8 out of 10. when i maxed all settings out it remained about the same so i didnt bother taking the pic.

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[93fs]

small update, just spoke with HTP and the tech mentioned something i probably completly overlooked. theres an input adjustment thats supposed to be checked upon setting up the welder, i know i never checked this, i must of blown by that page in the manual. if thats set wrong it very well could explain the low output. i will check this when i get home and see what i find. and ill troubleshoot the garage wiring from there. also for what its worth the guy i spoke with was very thorough, ive yet to have any complaint with the HTP customer service. defiantly top notch

 

[Brand X]

HTP makes the best welders that exist in my opinion.

They don't make any of them.Italian imports. Good machines, but the best is quite a leap of faith. (IMO)

Like Cary said, run some .035 wire, and see what your amps are.. 23.7 volts might just flat out too much to get the amp reading you want.. Might be going a bit globular transfer on you, and just won't push amp reading you are seeing.. Play with the voltage taps, and push more wire to see if the amps jump up some.. I get 210 + amps at 430 ipm at full voltage on my little Esab 160 caddie mig.( Tektronix amp meter) Guessing abound 22 + volts. watching the burn off rate/puddle.

 

[doojus]

you're frying that 1/8" good with 172 amps, why do you want more? I wouldnt be surprised if that welder has some kind of auto sensing circuitry that's limiting it.

 

[sberry]

Yes, could have jumpers for 208 in. It's been a while since I meter machines and forget, I should write it down. A 225A buzzer will trip 30 usually right around 100A. A 10 wire will run it at 225 with a 50 breaker. This smaller mig isn't going to overheat or starve from this wire especially at today's nominal input voltages.
A 225A is listed for 12 wire @50A. No one thinks it's a great idea especially at 85 ft. It's over 10v and maybe 12 drop, 5 percent and still works, move to 10 wire and lose 3.5v, a third or 1/4 the drop, not noticeable to the user and tolerates duty cycle better. Move to 8 wire and only 2 volts or so drop, only 1.5 difference, moot and not noticeable and only a factor over 50 duty or more. Pluss distance factor,,,, 40 ft is 1/2 the distance with a size larger wire than the standard.
Point of all that is larger wire is moot here especially from a trouble shooting point,,, that ain't the reason. A hundred ft of 12 would start to cause some concern and even then would likely run ok at this output.
Scott knows way more about output of these than I do, my interest is in use and don't care much about the math beyond function.
I did meter one up the other day for a problem and found it in the door charts, pitiful. I set the machine by use and the math followed,, both in and out. Turned it up and it ran rated output, by the charts it wasn't even close. 6A or more in and close to 40 more out as I recall. On a 12 cord 3v drop, 14 cord about 8 or 9 and it messed with the setting just a pinch and only notice as I compared them side by side.
Also as Scott said, turn it up and eventually will go to glob. Untill you get there where the arc pukes it's not wide open.
I would think with that class machine 035 would raise it some. In my 180 it let's it output only about 10a or so and the arc starts to shate. Makes is more fussy at lower current,,, it's an 030 machine. I believe Dan said the 230 would crank up with 030, the machines can be a bit different but the 2400 is likely near the same class as the 230. I don't recall what kind of juice he could squeeze with bigger wire?

 

[finn]

Just call Jeff Noland at HTP. The website will have the number.

Jeff is the owner and a straight shooter.

Most likely he’ll personally walk you through your issues

 

[Brand X]

Cary,
my reason was input voltage to output with .030 wire..I wanted to know what a quality 6000 watt generator would do with a good inverter mig welder./plasma cutter. seen almost 230 amps top running CO2 gas .030 solid wire.. Some of the China wire (HTP comes from there)has a real funny burn off rate, and hard to get a real feel for what the output can be..

 

[93fs]

Just call Jeff Noland at HTP. The website will have the number.

Jeff is the owner and a straight shooter.

Most likely he’ll personally walk you through your issues

jeff is actually who i just talked to, and he was definitely a straight shooter, went over a handful of things to check in order. he even said i could call his cell when i get home and he could walk me through more testing. i dont plan on bothering him after hours, but hell of a guy to offer!

 

[93fs]

Yes, could have jumpers for 208 in. It's been a while since I meter machines and forget, I should write it down. A 225A buzzer will trip 30 usually right around 100A. A 10 wire will run it at 225 with a 50 breaker. This smaller mig isn't going to overheat or starve from this wire especially at today's nominal input voltages.
A 225A is listed for 12 wire @50A. No one thinks it's a great idea especially at 85 ft. It's over 10v and maybe 12 drop, 5 percent and still works, move to 10 wire and lose 3.5v, a third or 1/4 the drop, not noticeable to the user and tolerates duty cycle better. Move to 8 wire and only 2 volts or so drop, only 1.5 difference, moot and not noticeable and only a factor over 50 duty or more. Pluss distance factor,,,, 40 ft is 1/2 the distance with a size larger wire than the standard.
Point of all that is larger wire is moot here especially from a trouble shooting point,,, that ain't the reason. A hundred ft of 12 would start to cause some concern and even then would likely run ok at this output.
Scott knows way more about output of these than I do, my interest is in use and don't care much about the math beyond function.
I did meter one up the other day for a problem and found it in the door charts, pitiful. I set the machine by use and the math followed,, both in and out. Turned it up and it ran rated output, by the charts it wasn't even close. 6A or more in and close to 40 more out as I recall. On a 12 cord 3v drop, 14 cord about 8 or 9 and it messed with the setting just a pinch and only notice as I compared them side by side.
Also as Scott said, turn it up and eventually will go to glob. Untill you get there where the arc pukes it's not wide open.
I would think with that class machine 035 would raise it some. In my 180 it let's it output only about 10a or so and the arc starts to shate. Makes is more fussy at lower current,,, it's an 030 machine. I believe Dan said the 230 would crank up with 030, the machines can be a bit different but the 2400 is likely near the same class as the 230. I don't recall what kind of juice he could squeeze with bigger wire?

im gonna try all of HTPs troubleshooting first, i dont think the wire is the issue either at this point, but the voltage coming into the garage could be, depending on how it goes i may still do a 50a breaker and 8-2 wire just to keep it safe but even that my not be needed. jeff at htp said id need a 40a to get full potential, which are hard to come by. he said most just go with a 50a and 8-2 wire. but also agreed that he doubts thats the main issue right now.

 

[sberry]

It would have tripped the 30 if it was a problem. Some machines all ow 10 on a 60. A larger breaker does not give it more power, a larger wire helps do that but depends on load, obviously not a lot over 30 and it lists 40 . If it needed more it would list 50. The 40 is at 35 percent duty, 10 will handle that and it's only 40 ft. 10 will do it at 80 ft. Half the distance, half the V drop.
Did you check the polarity???

 

[93fs]

It would have tripped the 30 if it was a problem. Some machines all ow 10 on a 60. A larger breaker does not give it more power, a larger wire helps do that but depends on load, obviously not a lot over 30 and it lists 40 . If it needed more it would list 50. The 40 is at 35 percent duty, 10 will handle that and it's only 40 ft.

i agree, jeff up there did say that i could potentially just have a weak feed to the garage as well, the shop is detached but its still run from the same triplex as the house. theres a chance i could be sub 210v coming in i suppose

 

[sberry]

Couldn't hurt to measure it. Who wired the outlet?
We know a bit about trips on 30 due to people running them from dryer circuits. Trips are common. Yours isnt. If it isn't its not overloading that wire, it will carry 2x that at 20 percent.

 

[93fs]

Couldn't hurt to measure it. Who wired the outlet?

when i bought the house there was one 30a breaker and a 220v plug in, i had an electrician wire 2 more 30s in, ones hard wired to the compressor, and he left the other just as a line rolled up since i didnt have the welder yet, i then ran the wire over to the other side of the shop and wired the actual receptacle myself. i feel pretty confident i did that part right, but im gonna check both outlets to make sure they read the same.

 

[dnschmidt]

Brand X, I should have stated that they import the best welders in the world for the money. The STEL welders they sell from Italy, both the ProPulse 200 and Invertig 221 are far and away superior to anything else in their price range. To me there isn't anything anywhere that has the feature set of the ProPulse 200 at even twice the price. I LOVE MINE. I sort of wonder why the OP bought the transformer based 240 instead of the inverter synergic ProPulse 200. To me the ProPulse 200 was a no brainer.

 

[Brand X]

Fair enough.
Some people like a simple interface/Proven, dead simple transformer based mig machine.. Good value in them too.. I get what the pulse can do for you, but general steel welding C-25,solid wire,dual-shield MS/SS will get you there just fine without all the programing.I had, and used plenty of High-end pulse machines, and not for everyone's needs.. I also have a feeling the old school ****** based unit will prove to be the more reliable unit after 20 years of use. Generally not a throw away unit after the warranty is up. If there is a issue then.. Yes I have all inverters in my shop, and like them too..

 

[93fs]

Brand X, I should have stated that they import the best welders in the world for the money. The STEL welders they sell from Italy, both the ProPulse 200 and Invertig 221 are far and away superior to anything else in their price range. To me there isn't anything anywhere that has the feature set of the ProPulse 200 at even twice the price. I LOVE MINE. I sort of wonder why the OP bought the transformer based 240 instead of the inverter synergic ProPulse 200. To me the ProPulse 200 was a no brainer.

its been at least two years since i bought the 2400, but ive barely used it, money got tight and projects came to a stand still for awhile. i dont believe the pro pulse was available at that time or it would of defiantly been considered. when i bought it i was looking at the millermatic 211 originally, the inverter technology seemed nice, but im kind of oldschool and saw no need for the multiplug. the htp unit looked like it would stand the test of time, and with as little as i use it, will hopefully last me for years to come.

 

[93fs]

also for anyone following, i didnt get too far into testing voltage last night, but i did verify i have 239.9v at the welder, and the input voltage is set correctly on the machine. so now all i have left is to see if there is a big drop when its running, then go from there

 

[93fs]

well i had some time over the weekend to pick up some clean 1/8" steel, it appears that when it feels like its welding good, its putting roughly 145-160 amps down. i also ground down an old brushhog blade and cranked it wide open again and got 240 amps. i think it was just melting the wire more than it was welding but thats to be expected. so it seems like the garage wiring and the machine is capable of cranking it out. as to why i have to wind mine up a little higer than a couple others ive seen? still not sure but now that i know it will do it, im not as concerned. heres a couple pics on the 1/8" mind you im far from a professional welder. but i think these are starting to get there