HUG Hydronics Radiant In-Floor Heating System???

[whitecarrera]

I'm looking at different radiant heat systems for my new garage, where I've already installed the pex loops in my new concrete.

Does anyone have experience or know about Hug Hydronics (Hunt Utilities Group)? It's a different, simpler kind of system. Seems very innovative, but I'm looking for experience or thoughts. Thanks.

https://hughydronics.com/

 

[whitecarrera]

The more I learn about this system, the more I think I'm going to go with it. I'm hoping someone with some experience or opinions will chime in to help me with the decision.

 

[fitter30]

Look at a couple of YouTube under 5 minutes. Tried to read about it that didn't work out. Need to look at the other videos hour long. I'm old school primary/ secondary loops, field piped manifolds and pumps picked for head and gpm. With a taco controller for zone and boiler control. Things that i did see expansion tank, air device/ micro bubbler. First impression easy to connect to loops and control to thermostat easy. Gas fired 95% efficiency boilers have high pressure drop as the flow goes up verses electric.

 

[whitecarrera]

I never got much reply on this, which makes sense as I don't think anyone has much experience with these systems. According to their social media, they just shipped their 500th system a few months ago, so now it's at least 501. I pulled the trigger and my system just arrived today (within a week of placing my order).

It's supposed to be incredibly simple to install, but I'm in no big hurry, so I'll get updates as I get to it.

It's got no pressure tank or manifolds, or anything complicated because it's not a sealed system. No copper anywhere. Imagine an insulated tank with submersible pumps and a water heater above. One pump circulates water through the heater, pulling from the cool end of the tank and returning to the other. Three other pumps draw from the hot side and circulate through three floor loops. That water returns to the cool end of the tank where it's sent back through the heater (rinse & repeat). A control board and thermostats (two in my case) control the system and turn the correct pumps on and off as needed.

 

[fitter30]

State boiler 12.2 kW 41602 btu's. Any info on the pumps being used? Pex size, length of loops and number of them?

 

[whitecarrera]

Hi Fitter - my loops are pretty standard - 1/2” Pex with each loop between 250’ and 300’. My building is 1050 sq ft inside so spacing was about 15 inches.

Two loops will be in the garage side with one on the pool house. Each side with its own thermostat.

Not sure of pump brands but the three circulation pumps are DC50, max of 5 gpm. The larger pump to the heater is DV60 at 13 gpm.

I’m in central Indiana and planning to use straight water.

 

[Firebrick43]

Good luck, That system is a terrible idea.

Its proprietary submerged pumps, controllers, valves, and fittings. If they go out of business you cant swap it out for a taco or grundfos or half a dozen other manufactures like you can with a standard system.

The biggest problem is its an open system instead of closed. Introducing oxygen accelerates corrosion in the systems components especially in the boiler. And evaporation must have make up water introduced which not only brings in more oxygen, but adds minerals to plug up your boilers heat exchanger when those mineral precip out. A closed system with a good micro bubbler air remover and no leaks doesn't have these problems. This is why things like oxygen barrier pex are the standard now.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

OK……. I gotta ask the big question: How much did the HUG equipment cost?

 

[whitecarrera]

Firebrick - I’m inclined to disagree, but time will tell. The pumps are easily accessible and can be swapped out in minutes. Other than the internals of a $300 water heater (no boiler, no heat exchanger, no valves, no manifolds, no fittings, no pressure tank or relief) there’s nothing to corrode.

The floor is pex and all the tubing is silicone, attached with removable plastic clamps. HUG advises to check the system for evaporation every six months, but I’ll only use it about 4 months a year. If I have to open the lid and dump in some more distilled water every now and then, that’s easy.

The way I see it, this is as straightforward as any system can be. One pump circulates to the heater. Three pumps draw from the tank and circulate through the floor. Other than the control board, this could exist in a blue plastic drum.

I’m not promoting the company as much as trying to pay it back to this board for all the things I’ve learned from everyone else. Whether this system is a win, lose, or draw, I’ll share.

Total cost was about $4000, shipped and delivered in 7 days. I could have bought the water heater locally and saved some $$ but might’ve sacrificed some warranty.

 

[larry4406]

Following along.

I would love to have a hydronic floor heat in a garage.

@whitecarrera I assume the heat source is electric?

 

[whitecarrera]

Yes - any heat source would work, but I didn’t bring gas to this building, so it’s a tankless electric. The sticker on the box projects $98 annual costs, and with this use, and for only about four months, it should be significantly less.

 

[Firebrick43]

Firebrick - I’m inclined to disagree, but time will tell. The pumps are easily accessible and can be swapped out in minutes.

I didn’t make the point that it wasn’t easy????

I made the point that it was proprietary and where would you get parts if they went belly up.

Other than the internals of a $300 water heater (no boiler, no heat exchanger, no valves, no manifolds, no fittings, no pressure tank or relief) there’s nothing to corrode.

Can you link a 300 dollar water heater that is appropriate?

Yes - any heat source would work, but I didn’t bring gas to this building, so it’s a tankless electric. The sticker on the box projects $98 annual costs, and with this use, and for only about four months, it should be significantly less.

The yellow EPA sticker is for domestic hot water not heating a building.

That number is highly dubious for resistance heat in any form. You don’t mention your location, building size, and construction methods/insulation levels.

 

[PoorUB]

Yes - any heat source would work, but I didn’t bring gas to this building, so it’s a tankless electric. The sticker on the box projects $98 annual costs, and with this use, and for only about four months, it should be significantly less.

I thing you will be darned lucky to heat for an average of $100 a month!

How can a equipment supplier give you a guestimate on energy consumption without knowing what you are heating, the type of construction and insulation and the area of the country you live in? If that 12.2 KW heater runs six hours a day it will run about $2 a day for heat. If it runs 12 hours a day that is $4 a day, or $60 to $120 a month and probably more when it gets below zero outside.

I don't know about the HUGS deal, but it sounds like a lot of proprietary parts. Not a good deal if your heat stops in the dead of winter.

I have built many floor heat hydronic systems and it really isn't that hard to do, especially with three loops. and easier yet if you run them all as one zone.

 

[fitter30]

Hi Fitter - my loops are pretty standard - 1/2” Pex with each loop between 250’ and 300’. My building is 1050 sq ft inside so spacing was about 15 inches.

Two loops will be in the garage side with one on the pool house. Each side with its own thermostat.

Not sure of pump brands but the three circulation pumps are DC50, max of 5 gpm. The larger pump to the heater is DV60 at 13 gpm.

I’m in central Indiana and planning to use straight water.

Straight water at least put in rectorseal 8 way boiler treatment. Is the system piping sealed. 300' 1/2" Pex design is 1 gpm.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

Yes - any heat source would work, but I didn’t bring gas to this building, so it’s a tankless electric. The sticker on the box projects $98 annual costs, and with this use, and for only about four months, it should be significantly less.

$98 annual costs?…… Is that for Florida or New Hampshire?

BTW! I hope this works out for you but "too new" and costly for me to experiment with.

 

[whitecarrera]

Firebrick - I’m not going to argue with you. I don’t know how the system puts those stickers on the boxes, but they’re on every appliance you buy these days. I’m heating a 1000 sq ft garage, very well insulated, to 50-60 degrees in Indiana.

If I can sit out here and smoke cigars or do an oil change in January, I’m happy to pay whatever. I’ll let you know once the snow starts to fall.

 

[American Locomotive]

It looks like the pumps are pretty generic 24v brushless DC pumps, readily available online. But also likely not as durable as something like a Taco or Grundfos.

With plastic piping, plastic pumps, and no valves, corrosion due to open air will be reduced. It will probably be okay with an electric boiler, but I'd anticipate long term issues with a gas boiler.

After watching the installation video - I don't hate the system. It seems relatively well thought out. But realistically you're just trading a manifold and an expansion tank for a big tank and a bunch of pumps.

 

[fitter30]

My concern is that it's not a sealed system. Sealed systems uses a air devise to remove any free air which oxygen will cause corrosion that is why pex b has a oxygen barrier and boiler treatment has a oxygen scavenger in it. Expansion tank is just for expansion of the heated water.

 

[Sumboodie]

Yes - any heat source would work, but I didn’t bring gas to this building, so it’s a tankless electric. The sticker on the box projects $98 annual costs, and with this use, and for only about four months, it should be significantly less.

$98 to run the pumps maybe.

To run a water heater, no way.

My place is about $1400 a year for gas. That'd be somewhere around that per month with electric heat.

 

[whitecarrera]

Like I said, if I can sit out there, have friends over, and smoke a few cigars in January, I'd pay $98/week! The building is on its own electrical service, so once it gets cold, I'll report back.

 

[Jackfre]

Some of the brightest customers I have seen, across many different manuf are those who have a couple spare parts on the shelf from the beginning, especially with proprietary equipment. It seems the pumps are the primary possible issue. Parts on the shelf makes life with a newer product more comfortable and buys time should the manuf run into trouble.

 

[whitecarrera]

Good advice. And it appears that similar pumps are readily available, so should be pretty easy to source.

 

[HogDude]

Good advice. And it appears that similar pumps are readily available, so should be pretty easy to source.

I like the way you roll. Been following your build for a while and since I'm in Eastern Nebraska we have similar winters. Hope you'll post some numbers after they start coming in. BTW, nice building and a great concept with Cigars and Oil Changes. With a winter that is intent on killing us and a city who sees the forecast and screams "Add More Salt", I'd throw car washes in there too.

 

[whitecarrera]

HogDude - I've seen your posts and appreciate your profile pic. My wife was tired of me sitting on the front porch with my legs in a sleeping bag, so she was fully supportive of heating this place and adding exhaust fans. She used to hate my cigars, but now she's good so long as there's ventilation or she's upwind. In fact she had this custom humidor built for me when she redid some bookshelves.

Hope I can one day fill this garage as well as I've filled the humidor.

 

[NitroGarage]

My concern is that it's not a sealed system. Sealed systems uses a air devise to remove any free air which oxygen will cause corrosion that is why pex b has a oxygen barrier and boiler treatment has a oxygen scavenger in it. Expansion tank is just for expansion of the heated water.

I hear you on this, but how much dissolved oxygen is in the average domestic water supply that heater is built to endure? There's no cast iron boiler being used here.

 

[Mr onetwo]

I am skeptical about the overall concept of this system, but I am eager to see how this all works out. Open systems have tons of problems due mostly to the materials used in the past.I hope this works out for you and will be watching.

 

[kj_mustang]

My water supply has a ton of air injected into it. My Fleck 5600 injects air to help remove iron. All my radiant systems are filled from that supply but they are closed systems with air eliminators.

 

[whitecarrera]

I installed my new system last weekend, but had a couple glitches to work out this weekend. Everything is now up and running perfectly. Here are a couple pics. For reference, that black wallboard behind it is 44”W x 48”H.

I have two zones arranged, with one loop feeding the kitchen side and two loops in the garage. Out of curiosity, I checked the sound level, and it registered 55 decibels from about 24 inches. My regular talking voice was 65 decibels.

I’ll give some updates along the way as the building warms Up and I get some electrical bills.

 

[whitecarrera]

Just got back from a week in Florida -- left 84 degrees and returned to snow, but my garage was toasty warm. So far, the HUG system is working flawlessly. Very happy with it.

 

[bams50]

Very interested. I just came here today hoping for some education. I have a new pole barn with the tubing in the floor, but nothing else. I never heard of the system you’re using. I am very interested in learning more. Do you have any updates?

 

[whitecarrera]

Bams - I'm happy to help. The system has been connected and running for about six weeks now, and I'm 100% happy with it. The company has a youtube channel with several videos, and it was as easy to hook up as the videos show.

https://www.youtube.com/@HUGHydronics

I'm in Indianapolis, and so it hasn't been in single digits yet, but I don't think I'll have any trouble. I'm still finishing the insulation in my loft area, so I know it's been running a little more than normal. I've been keeping the garage side at 50 and the pool-house side at 60 degrees without any issue, and the system was really adaptable to what I needed, running three loops with two different zones and two basic, mechanical thermostats. I think the capacity for the system is nine loops and four zones.

Here's the link to my full project if you're interested.
Indianapolis - New 28X40 Garage/Pool house build

The building is on its own electrical service, so once I get the insulation finished, I'll be able see exactly what the cost is. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask.

 

[bams50]

Thank you for the reply! I read what you said, then I went to research this approach. Today I pulled the trigger and ordered one for my building.

Just for others’ info, they told me the system would work sufficiently for up to 5400 ft.²; which is more than double my pole barn. It is 40 x 64, eight loops of a little over 300 feet per loop, 2500-ish total. They told me 4 pumps would be plenty, two loops per pump. Ultimately what made the deal was being able to talk to an actual person that was an expert on the system. and from what others have said, they are very good at customer support if you need it.

They told me it should arrive in about a week and a half. We’ll get it installed and i’ll start a new thread. In meantime, please keep us updated on yours! Much appreciated.

 

[whitecarrera]

Bams - good to hear. Hope you'll be as pleased as I am. The installation instructions were very specific and clear. Adjusting the little jumper pins was new to me, but once I understood the circuit board it was easy.

I had two small glitches, both easily resolved:

First, the pump for my second zone wouldn't activate. One of the pins for Zone 2 was broken, but since I'm only running two zones, I just switched my thermostat wires to Zone 4 and used that zone instead. So instead of Zones 1 and 2, I'm running 1 and 4.



Second, after purging the water heater (a tankless State Water Heater bought with the system), the tank wouldn't sense water flow and turn on. I'm sure someone can give a better explanation, but my understanding is that the flow sensor isn't a mechanical switch, but rather some kind of electronic sensor that reacts to the ions or whatever in the water. I'm reminded of the mass air flow sensors in a car engine. Anyway, my distilled water I was too pure, and so I added 2 tablespoons of baking soda to adjust the pH. All this was in the instructions, but I got anxious and tested the system before adjusting the pH.

Good luck.

 

[bams50]

Bams - good to hear. Hope you'll be as pleased as I am. The installation instructions were very specific and clear. Adjusting the little jumper pins was new to me, but once I understood the circuit board it was easy.

I had two small glitches, both easily resolved:

First, the pump for my second zone wouldn't activate. One of the pins for Zone 2 was broken, but since I'm only running two zones, I just switched my thermostat wires to Zone 4 and used that zone instead. So instead of Zones 1 and 2, I'm running 1 and 4.



Second, after purging the water heater (a tankless State Water Heater bought with the system), the tank wouldn't sense water flow and turn on. I'm sure someone can give a better explanation, but my understanding is that the flow sensor isn't a mechanical switch, but rather some kind of electronic sensor that reacts to the ions or whatever in the water. I'm reminded of the mass air flow sensors in a car engine. Anyway, my distilled water I was too pure, and so I added 2 tablespoons of baking soda to adjust the pH. All this was in the instructions, but I got anxious and tested the system before adjusting the pH.

Good luck.

So, you just went with straight (distilled) water?

 

[whitecarrera]

Yes. Distilled water will transfer more heat than an antifreeze mix, and I'm not too concerned about the system freezing. It would have to be a bad chain of events to create any of those problems for me.

 

[bams50]

They recommended I run 25% Hercules Cryo-Tek as a precaution.

 

[whitecarrera]

We discussed that as well, but I suspect the climate here is different enough that it was a toss-up for central Indiana. Also, I was limited in the size of water heater, because of the electric I already had in place, so wanted to be as efficient as possible.

 

[bams50]

Yeah, that's another issue, the heater they are sending says 80 amps so I will have to have the electrician back to address that.

 

[whitecarrera]

Yeah, I understand. I had already run a 60 amp circuit and looped the line above the brand new ceiling. By that point, it would’ve been way too much work to backtrack.

 

[American Locomotive]

We discussed that as well, but I suspect the climate here is different enough that it was a toss-up for central Indiana. Also, I was limited in the size of water heater, because of the electric I already had in place, so wanted to be as efficient as possible.

I mean there are other reasons to run anti-freeze, like corrosion protection, for example. But also the overall "efficiency" of the system really won't change much. Especially when you consider that the plastic pipe that' surrounding your water is a terrible thermal conductor, as is the concrete/wood/whatever the pipe is inside of.

For your type of system, really the only thing that would happen with an anti-freeze/water mixture is that at a given power input (say 10kW), the boiler outlet temperature would be slightly higher. On in other words, to maintain a certain temperature in the space with a given outdoor temperature, the water loop temperature would need to be slightly higher.

However, the total amount of energy going in/out of the system is still the same. A gas condensing boiler would have a small efficiency penalty with a higher loop temperature, but an electric boiler will not. So in your case, there really should be no consequence at all to adding anti-freeze.