Humidifiers

[mike93lx]

I need to add some moisture in my house. We are in the 30's this time of year and everyone has dry skin and coughs. Not sure how low it is going to get, but I do know it will get worse.

My old hvac had an aprilaire that was similar to the current 400, but it was a moldy mess, so it all came out when we replaced the systems in October.

I'd like to start with a unit on the second floor so that the bedrooms are covered. I'd likely do both the 1st and 2nd floor so that the hardwoods on the first get some love, but I care about them a little less than my kids.

Is preventing mold as "simple" as a UV system? Are steam systems vastly superior to evaporative?

I already have aprilaire thermostats, so control is covered. I have a call into my hvac guy, but I could see doing this myself if it's not way more complicated than I am thinking.

 

[PoorUB]

The Aprilaire 400 is the water saver model. It fills a trough in the bottom and the water is supposed to wick up the pad. They don't work! The pad gets dirty and scaled up and it doesn't wick water any longer and you end up with a quart of moldy water. I used to sell them and any time a contractor wanted to buy one I would tell him there short comings and end up selling something else.

I have an Aprilaire 500 in my home. I just trickles water down the pad and the excess goes down the drain. They work great, don't get moldy, but they use a lot of water. So if you are on a sewer an well water you might not want to use the 500. I am on city water and water is pretty cheap here so no worries.

An other choice would be an Aprilaire 800 steam humidifier, they have water in a plastic container, but it gets boiled to produce steam, so no mold. The downside is you need to replace the canister maybe once a year, more or less depending on how much use it gets and how hard is your water.

 

[mike93lx]

The Aprilaire 400 is the water saver model. It fills a trough in the bottom and the water is supposed to wick up the pad. They don't work! The pad gets dirty and scaled up and it doesn't wick water any longer and you end up with a quart of moldy water. I used to sell them and any time a contractor wanted to buy one I would tell him there short comings and end up selling something else.

I have an Aprilaire 500 in my home. I just trickles water down the pad and the excess goes down the drain. They work great, don't get moldy, but they use a lot of water. So if you are on a sewer an well water you might not want to use the 500. I am on city water and water is pretty cheap here so no worries.

An other choice would be an Aprilaire 800 steam humidifier, they have water in a plastic container, but it gets boiled to produce steam, so no mold. The downside is you need to replace the canister maybe once a year, more or less depending on how much use it gets and how hard is your water.

Thanks. We have county water with septic and water is cheap. I'd drain it with the condensate, which is piped to the edge of my property.

I don't love the energy requirements of the 800, but if it has better mold control, it might be worth it. The upfront and running costs on tbe 500 are a lot less

 

[PoorUB]

Thanks. We have county water with septic and water is cheap. I'd drain it with the condensate, which is piped to the edge of my property.

I don't love the energy requirements of the 800, but if it has better mold control, it might be worth it. The upfront and running costs on tbe 500 are a lot less

If you have a way to drain water other than your sewer the 500 is a good choice. Tear it a part and clean it and replace the pad once a year and they work.

 

[mike93lx]

If you have a way to drain water other than your sewer the 500 is a good choice. Tear it a part and clean it and replace the pad once a year and they work.

The 500 has basically the same casing and installation setup as the one I used to have and looking at the grid, I think it's the current equivalent.

It was absolutely covered in mold when I bought the house. No idea how long it had been ignored, but it was wildly disgusting. How long have you had your 500 for? What are you doing for maintaining/cleaning it?

 

[mike93lx]

I may just grab a larger Air care unit to try out and locate it centrally. If I place in in the entryway area, it should be a decent job of getting the air around the returns for both floors humidified. I'd have to deal with filling the reservoir, but at under $200 and no installation/plumbing complexity, it may be worth seeing how much it helps, then go for an integrated solution later

 

[PoorUB]

The 500 has basically the same casing and installation setup as the one I used to have and looking at the grid, I think it's the current equivalent.

It was absolutely covered in mold when I bought the house. No idea how long it had been ignored, but it was wildly disgusting. How long have you had your 500 for? What are you doing for maintaining/cleaning it?

Once a year, maybe....I tear it a part, toss the parts in the sink and wash them off and change the pad. It doesn't need much cleaning. it gets some hard water scale, a bit of dust. There is a tiny orifice on the water supply that will plug up every few years, but seriously, very trouble free.
I haven't serviced it in over a year and it is working.

 

[PoorUB]

I may just grab a larger Air care unit to try out and locate it centrally. If I place in in the entryway area, it should be a decent job of getting the air around the returns for both floors humidified. I'd have to deal with filling the reservoir, but at under $200 and no installation/plumbing complexity, it may be worth seeing how much it helps, then go for an integrated solution later

We had a water wheel style humidifier for a couple years. I would never go back to one, never. The Aprilaire 500 takes a tiny fraction of the maintenance.

 

[larry4406]

In our new homes, our standard humidifier offering is the Aprilaire 500. This is a bypass style unit meaning non-fan powered. It mounts on the return trunk, has a "high pressure" connection to the supply trunk, and the differential pressure causes air flow across the membrane. We plumb these to hot water.

The Aprilaire 500's seem to work well, are easily installed, and I have near zero service complaints with them. The few complaints I have chased are leaks, and these are almost always due to the membrane's drain ****** not properly registering into the drain hole (installation error). The membrane loads up pretty bad when there is poor water quality. The wetted membrane (water panel/filter they call it) is cheap and runs $10-12.

The Aprilaire 500 has a pretty decent footprint and not all HVAC installations have the real estate to accommodate. My prior house was like this. As a result, I had a similar Aprilaire unit (forgot the model number) but it has a built-in 120V fan and is connected directly to the supply plenum. We had that unit for near 10 years and then sold the house. House was on a well, hard water treated with a softener, and had a Little Giant condensate pump to discharge on the lawn vs going down the septic. Some years I would clean the filter/panel in CLR others just replace it.

Some of our customers upgrade to the Aprilaire 800 steam humidifier. We set these up as 240V and flip the internal DIP switch to the 16A mode as our houses are large. Honestly, I am not a fan of these. I think my dislike is 90% due to the inability of the crews to install them correctly and wire them properly. Common installation errors are:

• Incorrect slope for the steam emitter
• Wrongly supplied with hot water (you want cold to increase solubility of minerals which improves water conductivity)
• Inadvertent steam generation without fan operation creating flooded duct work which then leaks creating moldy drywall. This is a wiring error and our contractor now uses a sail switch for proving air flow prior to enabling steam generation
• Missing roughin wiring for the outdoor sensor and/or omission of the sensor altogether. If you have regular AC (not heat pump) you can sometimes get lucky and use the spare conductors in the low voltage wire to the outdoor unit and use a pair for the outdoor sensor.
• The internal canister is a consumable. The translucent canister impedes visual inspection somewhat but these crude up real bad depending on water quality, depleating the electrode, and they burn out. Replacement canisters are currently running around $95, so plan on one per season.

When the Aprilaire 800 steam unit is installed and operating properly, they seem to do a good job. For the upfront cost, complexity of proper installation, and recurring maintenance costs, I would stick with the Aprilaire 500 or its fan assist brother.

 

[danski0224]

Bypass style humidifiers ****. You are adding the humidified air before the heat exchanger, making it less effective.

Then there's the damper that is open when it should be closed... or closed when it should be open.

The steam models need extreme attention to detail during installation.

A powered fan model should be sufficient for most installations.

Either get the 700A model and use the Aprilaire system to enable humidity without a call for heat, or get a thermostat that does it. Humidifier needs hot water supply for this.

Use an all metal ball valve for the compression connection. The Brass Craft 1/4 turn valves at most box stores have plastic parts inside.

The aftermarket paper based water panels can work better than the OE metal style, but the paper ones can collapse or support mold issues.

Generally speaking, mold issues in the humidifier point to other stuff. Like the solenoid valve not shutting off completely.

 

[mike93lx]

Bypass style humidifiers ****. You are adding the humidified air before the heat exchanger, making it less effective.

Then there's the damper that is open when it should be closed... or closed when it should be open.

The steam models need extreme attention to detail during installation.

A powered fan model should be sufficient for most installations.

Either get the 700A model and use the Aprilaire system to enable humidity without a call for heat, or get a thermostat that does it. Humidifier needs hot water supply for this.

Use an all metal ball valve for the compression connection. The Brass Craft 1/4 turn valves at most box stores have plastic parts inside.

The aftermarket paper based water panels can work better than the OE metal style, but the paper ones can collapse or support mold issues.

Generally speaking, mold issues in the humidifier point to other stuff. Like the solenoid valve not shutting off completely.

Thanks.

Have to say, I do miss all the air conditioning and heating that my old bypass setup leaked into the garage...

I have a hot tap near the 2nd floor air handler, but it's in the 3rd floor, so actually getting hot water up there takes a bit. I don't know how warm the water will really be. If getting hot water is critical I can put a point of use heater in that bathroom

 

[danski0224]

Yes, hot water is important if the humidifier is set up to humidify without a call for heat.

 

[larry4406]

The bypass style units have a manually operated butterfly/damper to shut the bypass air flow off during the non-use AC season. Sadly many folks forget to seasonally change the position.

 

[mike93lx]

The bypass style units have a manually operated butterfly/damper to shut the bypass air flow off during the non-use AC season. Sadly many folks forget to seasonally change the position.

Mine had one, it was still wildly leaky.

 

[mike93lx]

Either get the 700A model and use the Aprilaire system to enable humidity without a call for heat, or get a thermostat that does it. Humidifier needs hot water supply for this.

Any idea if the aprilaire 8620W can do that control?

The 700 automatic is only $400 at supplyhouse. Guessing my hvac guy will want 1500-2000 installed, which I don't fault him for at all, but this feels like something I can do.

 

[WisJim]

A bit off the subject, but I have found that if a house needs humidification in the winter, it is most likely not well sealed or weathertight and maybe not adequately insulated. The reason for dry air in the house is excessive leakage of dry outside air into the heated space. We find that we run our dehumidifier year around after doing weatherization and insulation projects.
I'm in western Wisconsin where we get some real winter weather every year.

 

[danski0224]

Any idea if the aprilaire 8620W can do that control?

The 700 automatic is only $400 at supplyhouse. Guessing my hvac guy will want 1500-2000 installed, which I don't fault him for at all, but this feels like something I can do.

The AA 700A control will do it, just follow the instructions.

 

[fitter30]

4" angle grinder with a thin cut off wheel will making the sheet metal both flat and round easy. Eye and ear and gloves protection. RH flows from high to low, from warm to cold. Heat pump or electric furnace use hot water.

 

[mike93lx]

4" angle grinder with a thin cut off wheel will making the sheet metal both flat and round easy. Eye and ear and gloves protection. RH flows from high to low, from warm to cold. Heat pump or electric furnace use hot water.

Heat pump with gas furnaces here.

An angle ginder on hvac sheet metal? Snips are a lot less messy

 

[larry4406]

An angle ginder on hvac sheet metal? Snips are a lot less messy

Yeah I had a service guy cut in a register in an unfinished space using a grinder and cutoff wheel and I was mortified with all the sparks.

Large slot screw driver, hammer, and create hole. Snips then for the win.

 

[mike93lx]

The AA 700A control will do it, just follow the instructions.

But I have these fancy thermostats already...

 

[danski0224]

Doesn't matter. Aprilaire control is designed to mount to the duct.

Instructions should be on Supplyhouse website.

You have to read the instructions. Part of it depends on whether there are enough wires in the wall, or not.

I didn't look up that thermostat model.

 

[PoorUB]

Any idea if the aprilaire 8620W can do that control?

I have never used that 'stat. I guess you will have to RTFM!

It looks like it will run a humidifier of dehumidifier, I can not help but think it would run the fan too. If it doesn't a relay with the coil wired across the humidifier solenoid valve and the relay contacts wired across the R and F terminals in the furnace control board will take care of it.

 

[mike93lx]

My hvac guy told me to go steam and put it on the first floor. He also told me.to go ahead and DIY and pull them in if I need any help. His estimate was $2-3k all in. I already having the cold supply right there and I'd do the electrical, so I'd expect on the lower end if I hired it out. @danski0224 what are you thinking with your comment of requiring extreme attention to detail?

 

[danski0224]

Download the installation manual, read it, see if your system can have a steam humidifier installed and then see if the actual installation and setup is within your wheelhouse.

 

[Denwood]

Just another vote for the 500. I've had one working for about 10 years now. You can order a maintenance kit for them that comes with a new orifice, tubing, and evaporator matrix. Zero issues, no mold.

 

[PoorUB]

Water flows down hill, steam likes to go up hill. RTFM and have at it.

If you are anywhere near handy and can read an install manual you can do it.

I have said it before, with HVAC equipment if you read the install manual and have a general understanding anyone can install equipment. Just RTFM, it is all in there.

It is when people don't read or understand, or just get sloppy there is problems.

When I ran the service department I told the guys I will never give you hell for reading the manual, but i will give you hell for asking me a question that is clearly in the manual! If they didn't understand I have no issues.

A steam humidifier will need a dedicated circuit. The Aprilaire 800 will run on 115 or 230 volt, just twice the capacity on 230 volt so figure out how much humidity you need and wire it appropriately. You can not go wrong wiring it on 230 volt.

 

[larry4406]

The Aprilaire steam unit can be set up a couple ways.

One method is it only runs IF the furnace is running.

Another is it will create its own fan demand and create steam which is circulated independent of a heat demand. This is where our hvac contractor now uses a sail switch to only enable steam generation if the airflow is proven; mold and duct flooding occurs if the fan doesn’t run but steam generation is occurring.

There is also an outdoor temperature sensor. I’m not exactly sure how this comes into play with operation.

The 240V increases the gph compared to 120V. There is a DIP switch on the board to change the voltage setting. Obviously, you need a dpdt switch for the local power shutoff if wired 240V.

The canisters are not cheap to replace so your initial and recurring costs both go up.

Depending on your water mineral content, you may have to “jump start” the canister via addition of table salt. Pure water is not real conductive.

 

[mike93lx]

The Aprilaire steam unit can be set up a couple ways.

One method is it only runs IF the furnace is running.

Another is it will create its own fan demand and create steam which is circulated independent of a heat demand. This is where our hvac contractor now uses a sail switch to only enable steam generation if the airflow is proven; mold and duct flooding occurs if the fan doesn’t run but steam generation is occurring.

There is also an outdoor temperature sensor. I’m not exactly sure how this comes into play with operation.

The 240V increases the gph compared to 120V. There is a DIP switch on the board to change the voltage setting. Obviously, you need a dpdt switch for the local power shutoff if wired 240V.

The canisters are not cheap to replace so your initial and recurring costs both go up.

Depending on your water mineral content, you may have to “jump start” the canister via addition of table salt. Pure water is not real conductive.

The power consumption is part of what has me apprehensive. 16a at 240v is a lot of power to be pulling. May actually be able to justify some more air sealing work

The system would be within a few feet of the main panels, so a shutoff switch won't be necessary. I already have a water feed from the old humidifier (I replaced the saddle valve with a proper shutoff). I am on County water which I haven't tested, but I did have to add calcium to increase hardness on my pool that was filled this year, so that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[PoorUB]

There is also an outdoor temperature sensor. I’m not exactly sure how this comes into play with operation.

A humidifier controller with an outdoor sensor lowers the humidity level in the house when the outdoor temp drops to keep condensation on the windows to a minimum.

 

[BillK]

Mike,
I am in about the same climate as you and we have had the best luck with a 25 year old Sears console humidifier. The only power it uses is for the fan and I have to put a couple of gallons of water in it each evening but it keeps our house at about 35-40% all winter. I clean it out and change the pads every spring and it has worked fine for all that time. Ours is something similar to this:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F1H4AKS/?tag=atomicindus08-20

When we first moved in we had a unit that was mounted on the furnace duct work. We had problems with it a couple of times and I trashed it.

Just another option to think about.

 

[mike93lx]

After seeing multiple days in the high 20% area, I grabbed two large evaporative humidifiers this morning at home depot. At 119 each, it was cheap enough to not worry if I end up putting a unit on the furnace on my first floor, which I want to do, but it would be weeks before I could get to it.

They're incredibly simple, just a tub, a fan and a large wick.

I'll see how these do and maybe jump to a central unit for next year

 

[larry4406]

After seeing multiple days in the high 20% area, I grabbed two large evaporative humidifiers this morning at home depot. At 119 each, it was cheap enough to not worry if I end up putting a unit on the furnace on my first floor, which I want to do, but it would be weeks before I could get to it.

They're incredibly simple, just a tub, a fan and a large wick.

I'll see how these do and maybe jump to a central unit for next year

Those can get nasty mold in them. FYI.

 

[mike93lx]

Those can get nasty mold in them. FYI.

I'll watch them closely thanks. They're right in the living space and easy to monitor

If they get nasty quickly or don't seem to be getting it done, they'll go back to HD.

 

[PoorUB]

I'll watch them closely thanks. They're right in the living space and easy to monitor

If they get nasty quickly or don't seem to be getting it done, they'll go back to HD.

Wash them out often, like once a week.

 

[mike93lx]

Wash them out often, like once a week.

So far so good. I washed both last weekend and they were in good shape. The fan is a little annoying (my wife hates them and wants me to install central units, but that's not happening right now). They're keeping the house in the 40's, so I have to say I'm pretty happy for the low cost of entry

 

[NS68RT]

4" angle grinder with a thin cut off wheel will making the sheet metal both flat and round easy. Eye and ear and gloves protection. RH flows from high to low, from warm to cold. Heat pump or electric furnace use hot water.




Ha ha, this is how I would picture a fitter cutting a hole in sheet metal! Just kidding, but if you get some red and green offset snips, it's pretty easy and way less metal flying around.

 

[mike93lx]

Ha ha, this is how I would picture a fitter cutting a hole in sheet metal! Just kidding, but if you get some red and green offset snips, it's pretty easy and way less metal flying around.

?

 

[NS68RT]

Sorry, I was trying to quote Fitter30. Just a little friendly ribbing from a sheet metal worker!

 

[mike93lx]

Sorry, I was trying to quote Fitter30. Just a little friendly ribbing from a sheet metal worker!

Ahh, all good