To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

HVAC kit for mini-split install?

MushCreek

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
9,938
Location
Upstate South Carolina
I'm getting ready to install a mini split in an outbuilding. I plan to do all of the work my self, as cost is a factor. I'm looking at vacuum pump/manifold kits, and wondering what to get. There are lots of them in the $100 range on ebay, and for a one or two time usage, they should be fine. Any pointers on what to get? I'm not going to go out and buy 'pro' stuff, so don't waste your breath. Do most of these kits come with the right fittings for a mini split? It's really hard to tell from the descriptions. Thanks for any input.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Terry D

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 25, 2015
Messages
2,202
Location
St. Louis, MO.
Mini splits ports are 5/16. The hoses on you gauges are 1/4. If the kit doesnt come with a adapter, you will have to buy it separately.
 
Last edited:

kelpaso1

MEMBER EMERITUS
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Messages
3,962
Location
New Brunswick
Why would you even spend the money for gauges? What are you going to do if the mini doesn't work right after installation? I paid a guy $150 to get mine working and I didn't have to buy the gauges. Besides, do you even know what you are seeing on the gauges is even right and what to do if they are not? Some things are best left to a pro and not a DIY'er. Besides, how are you really saving anything when you have to buy gauges for a one time use?
 

Terry D

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 25, 2015
Messages
2,202
Location
St. Louis, MO.
Why would you even spend the money for gauges? What are you going to do if the mini doesn't work right after installation? I paid a guy $150 to get mine working and I didn't have to buy the gauges. Besides, do you even know what you are seeing on the gauges is even right and what to do if they are not? Some things are best left to a pro and not a DIY'er. Besides, how are you really saving anything when you have to buy gauges for a one time use?
I would have to agree with this. How are you planning to leak check it. Using a vacuum pump is not the proper way to leak check. Pressuring with nitrogen is the way to do it. You really dont want to release the refrigerant untill you know there is no leaks. The only way to properly charge a mini split is to weight in the charge.
 

Git

Well-known member
Joined
May 18, 2008
Messages
6,894
Location
S Cal
I did just about everything myself and then paid a contractor to come out, check everything over and start it up. If your only going to install one mini split, I suggest you look into it, otherwise, 'Syberia' recently made a very good post including what was needed to start one up

 

Jackfre

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 26, 2010
Messages
4,425
Location
N CA
going the low end limited route equipment route is the very definition of “hit and hope”. You need the 600# of nitrogen for leak check. I understand the dollar side of this, but with limited equipment/knowledge if things go sideways, it is an invitation to your own personal twilight zone. You then have to source the 410a, etc to fix it. The advise of doing all the labor on the install and hiring a pro to do the flares and start-up is the right road to follow.
 
OP
M

MushCreek

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
9,938
Location
Upstate South Carolina
The last time I had a guy come out to leak test and commission a mini-split, it was $650, and that was seven years ago. A lot of places won't even touch a DIY system. The Mr. Cool DIY is $400 more than the non-DIY, and you still have to be sure it doesn't leak. All of the mini-splits I'm looking at come pre-charged for up to 25' of lines. I know how to do proper flares. In fact, one of the complaints about cheap mini-splits is the poor quality of the flares. Most people advise cutting off the factory flares and re-doing them. About the only thing I can't do (easily) is a high pressure nitrogen leak test. BTW- The guy I got to do mine didn't do a nitrogen test, either. He pumped it down, and watched it for an hour to see if it lost vacuum. Same for another guy I had come out when I was having trouble with the system. I know that vacuum isn't the same as pressure. With the poor results I got from hiring local guys, I bought a stop-leak kit, re-charged the system as best I could, and it's been running for two years without issue. I figured it was on its last legs anyway.
 

Git

Well-known member
Joined
May 18, 2008
Messages
6,894
Location
S Cal
I never understood why a contractor wouldn't want to respond on a DIY installation. It's basically just a service call - they are going to earn their hourly rate no matter how good or bad the install is. I paid $300 in 2014 and used a Mitsubishi Diamond Contractor. Actually, I called around before I even purchased the system (from Comfort) and had them lined up to do it - they didn't have any problems with it.

I agree with you about the factory flares, I cut mine off and did them myself. I was looking into adding a 3rd indoor unit to my system, it is setup for 3 and I am currently using 2, but when I contacted Mitsubishi about it, they said it wouldn't handle 3. By that point, I had started lining up when I needed, and had one of my welding tanks refilled with nitrogen in preparation for doing the pressure test on the new unit. Ended up wasting the nitrogen around the house instead...
 

PoorUB

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 29, 2021
Messages
11,873
Location
Fargo, ND
I never understood why a contractor wouldn't want to respond on a DIY installation.
I worked a ad HVAC tech for years. We generally did not do any DIY start ups. We did for a while, but stopped.

First off about 90% were screwed up, or simply half *** install! Then the homeowner gets pissy with you when you tell them what needs to be done. Second, many homeowners think that if something it wrong with the unit, it now becomes the contractor's problem and we are obligated to fix it, under warranty, ahh, no! Also. these days any good HVAC shop is swamped with work. They can pick and choose the jobs.

There was not that much money in it, and the amount of hassle didn't justify the work when we had good paying customer's waiting for us. We turned away enough work that would have kept a small shop busy. And before you say hire more help, we ran help wanted ads constantly, all year around. It is tough to hire any body, and good people were about impossible to find. I remember interviewing guys a couple times a week and maybe hire one or two a year, they wouldn't stick around and it was a decent place to work.
 

Terry D

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 25, 2015
Messages
2,202
Location
St. Louis, MO.
The last time I had a guy come out to leak test and commission a mini-split, it was $650, and that was seven years ago. A lot of places won't even touch a DIY system. The Mr. Cool DIY is $400 more than the non-DIY, and you still have to be sure it doesn't leak. All of the mini-splits I'm looking at come pre-charged for up to 25' of lines. I know how to do proper flares. In fact, one of the complaints about cheap mini-splits is the poor quality of the flares. Most people advise cutting off the factory flares and re-doing them. About the only thing I can't do (easily) is a high pressure nitrogen leak test. BTW- The guy I got to do mine didn't do a nitrogen test, either. He pumped it down, and watched it for an hour to see if it lost vacuum. Same for another guy I had come out when I was having trouble with the system. I know that vacuum isn't the same as pressure. With the poor results I got from hiring local guys, I bought a stop-leak kit, re-charged the system as best I could, and it's been running for two years without issue. I figured it was on its last legs anyway.
You can not properly leak test with a vacuum pump. Period.
 
OP
M

MushCreek

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
9,938
Location
Upstate South Carolina
Around here, the small guys are mostly hacks, and the big guys won't touch it. When I first designed the system for our house, I got a turn-key quote from a Mitsubishi dealer. $7K. That's twice what I paid to buy the equipment and pay a guy to commission it. Since this is going in my barn, I'm buying a cheap ($900) unit, and would rather do it myself, or at least most of it.
 

Syberia

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Messages
1,451
Location
Perris, CA
There is so much FUD surrounding the HVAC industry and that seems to be by design for job protection. It's not rocket science, and that's precisely why they want to make it seem like it is.

I bought this gauge set, this vacuum pump, and this micron gauge (which seems to have gone up in price quite a bit) which I've used for two mini splits now. The vacuum pump came with a 5/16 to 1/4 adapter, so now I have an extra two-pack of them that I didn't actually use. Pump is capable of pulling down to at least 300 microns if given enough time, verified on the gauge.

I previously bought the $50 Harbor Freight gauges and a $50 "eBay special" vacuum pump with the thought process that I'd only be using them once for a compressor replacement in one of our old cars. That turned into 3 A/C jobs on 3 different vehicles and that's about all the cheap stuff was good for. Gauges started leaking and pump was completely seized up the next time I tried to use it.

With the difference in price between the DIY and non-DIY Mr. Cool units, the tools paid for themselves the first time I used them and I'm money ahead with the second mini-split I put on the wife's animal shed. Have plans for 2-3 more condensers and at least 5 indoor units on our house as well.

I would also recommend getting a cheap set of spring benders so you don't do what I did and kink the copper tubing trying to bend too sharp of a 90 in it. Also a tubing cutter and flaring tool if you don't already have them, since being able to shorten the lines is a huge advantage of the non-DIY units.

This goes against the "correct" process and I'm probably going to catch some flack for it, but you can do a quick "soap bubbles" test of your flares with compressed air. Just don't leave it in there longer than necessary, and vacuum to 500 microns afterwards. The way the systems are designed, until you open the valves and release the refrigerant, there is zero chance of air coming into contact with oil or anything that could absorb moisture from it. The TXV is in the outdoor unit and the indoor unit is a straight shot all the way through.

You don't need to add any refrigerant unless you exceed the maximum pre-charged length of lineset. Even the non-DIY condensers come pre-charged with 410a.

Also, square metal downspout makes a great line set cover if you don't want to use the plastic stuff Mr. Cool sells that will just deteriorate in the sun.
 
Last edited:

jjrbus

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2018
Messages
628
Location
Florida
Most mini split failures are due to improper installation. While not rocket science do require the proper tools. Really do not need a manifold set to install a mini1631879715415.png. What is needed is a micron gauge and nitrogen tank with gauge.
 

jjrbus

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2018
Messages
628
Location
Florida
Most mini split failures are due to improper installation. While not rocket science do require the proper tools. Really do not need a manifold set to install a mini1631879715415.png. What is needed is a micron gauge and nitrogen tank with gauge.
1631880108962.png
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

yeldogt

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
18,184
One nice thing about the DIY Mr. Cool is the warranty .... many of the other don't have coverage. Mr Cool will provide $$ if the fix requires outside service
 
OP
M

MushCreek

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
9,938
Location
Upstate South Carolina
And now for the rest of the story. Between waiting for tools and supplies, and a solid week of rain, I finally got good weather, and got the mini installed. I learned a lot, and now have a lot more tools to do the job right.

1) I agree that a high pressure test is a good idea. Although it appeared to hold vacuum, at 400 psi it leaked (more about that later). After pricing a nitrogen tank rental, it occurred to me that I have a 150 cu/ft tank of argon welding gas. I googled it, and it's fine to use for pressure testing, as welding gasses are dry. I bought a cheap nitrogen regulator. For some reason, the gauge on the nitrogen regulator does not agree with the HVAC gauges. I had to jack the regulator up to almost 500 psi to get 400 on the HVAC gauge. I'm not sure which one is wrong.
2) You need a micron gauge. The tiny little vacuum range on my cheap HVAC gauges was essentially useless. I bought a decent micron gauge.
3) You need a valve core removal tool. They make 'em specifically for the task, so you do a proper vacuum, release the refrigerant, and install the valve core.
4) I made up a vacuum manifold to hold the gauge with an additional shut-off to isolate the vacuum gauge prior to releasing the refrigerant.
5) Despite the warnings, I bought and attempted to use pre-made refrigerant lines. The flares were terrible. I could have done better with a hammer and a ball bearing. Of course, they leaked. I bought an eccentric flare tool which makes beautiful, perfect flares. I could have bought non-flared refrigerant tubes and the money I saved would have paid for the flaring tool, and then some.
6) The torque settings in the installation manual seem way too high. On the 1/4" line, it crushed the flare down to essentially foil. I used a little Nylog on the back of the flare as a lube. Looking up on-line, the torque for 1/4" tube should be 8-10 ft-lb, not the 14-15 the manual said. I don't know if it was my cheap torque wrench, the cheap tubing, or if the manual for the cheap mini-split was wrong. All three come from China, so who knows?
7) The cheap vacuum pump worked fine, but I found out that if you shut it off and leave it under vacuum, it will pull oil up into the hoses and gauge manifold. I know now to bleed off the residual vacuum in the hoses as soon as I shut it off. No more problems.

I'm all set up now to install mini-splits. I'm putting another one in the shop next year, and the two in the house are almost ten years old, so I expect to have to replace them at some point. The main one we use every day has already had issues. I still can't do full sevice, though. To do that, I'd need refrigerant recovery equipment ($$$) and a weigh-in scale to re-charge the system. The instructions that came with the mini said to vacuum it down, and if it doesn't leak in 15 minutes, it's good. I pressure-tested at 400 psi for 24 hours. Using their method, it would have failed in short order. Next up, I'm going to use my new-found equipment and knowledge to upgrade and repair the A/C in my '92 Miata.
 
OP
M

MushCreek

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
9,938
Location
Upstate South Carolina
In rough numbers, about $375. If I could get someone to do it, it would be at least that much, but you can't get anyone unless they do the full install. Then it costs more than the mini split itself. Still, it's barely worth buying the tools to install just one unit. As I said, I'm putting in another one next year, and eventually replacing two more, so with 4 of them on the property, it was worth getting the tools.

When I put the two units in the house, I was able to find a guy to do the final hook-up and test, vacuum, and charge the system. It was $650, 8 years ago. He disappeared, and other guys I've called wont do it.
 

KenC

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 20, 2009
Messages
2,602
Location
oklahoma
Regarding the torque issues: I had similar experiences and suspect that the torque numbers are for clean and dry threads and mating surfaces.. Nylog is a great lube and sealant and probably greatly increases the crush force at the flare.

I shortened my line sets and my flares with an older, quality flaring tool were much better than the ones I cut off.
 

jjrbus

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2018
Messages
628
Location
Florida
I am retired and found the bulk of mini failures are due to improper installation so spent much time researching, much of what is out there is for R22 systems or done by people that are well intentioned but do not have a clue what they are doing. You tube is a wonderful resource but read the comments before taking it as gospel .

I purchased a Daikin mini split kit as it contained a flair gauge, very simple go no go gauge, no judgement involved! 3 out of 4 factory flairs failed the gauge! Plus the micron gauge. I had the nitrogen tank and gauge doing car work. I tested under vacuum and pressure for a couple days, not in a hurry. Pressure fluctuates a bit due to ambient tempature.

I also had trouble with the flairs, even using the specialized Daikin HVAC torgue wrench. I cannot explain this well but found I needed a solid support for the wrench or I would destroy the flairs by using too much pressure. Sorry I cannot explain it better.


I do not know wy the video shows as unavailable? Try The right way to install a ductless mini split on You tube by James Clover.
 

yeldogt

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
18,184
IMO -- The "flare" joint should be sent to the dust bin of HVAC history.

Industrial settings where they can be replicated with great precision -- fine. We had to make those ball joints type on a bunch of tubing to fix my old MB's hydraulic suspension ... the tool was slick. They would be much better .... The new O ring type I think are going to take over.
 
OP
M

MushCreek

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
9,938
Location
Upstate South Carolina
Just a follow-up- We've had overnight guests, and the cheap Blueridge unit is performing well. Due to the high (22') ceiling, I'm running a ceiling fan on low to pull the warm air down. On a 30 degree night, the room was 65 with the unit set to 70. The unit is about 10' off of the ground, so I assume it's 70 degrees up where the unit is. The room is 16 X 28 X 22, insulated to R-19. The mini is a 12K BTU unit. Time will tell how long the thing lasts, but it won't be used all that much.
 

Agp209

New member
Joined
Dec 5, 2021
Messages
2
I bought a pump/manifold combo off Amazon for $150. Came with the adapter for mini splits. Worked great. Did have to buy some compressor oil separately, as it didn’t come with any.
 
Joined
Sep 11, 2014
Messages
5
Blah... Blah... Blah... the sky is falling if you do this yourself...lol
Here is what I used:
VacPump
GaugeSet
The pump came with oil. I installed 2 24kbtu mini split heat pumps in my shop, both work perfectly despite being installed by an amateur using the factory flair fittings, no micron gauge, or nitrogen pressure test. Strangely after ignoring all the warnings on here the units seem to be working perfectly a year and a half later. Total cost for everything including the Units, Concrete for a pad, electrical, lineset covers & tools, I'm at just under $2500 all in. 16 Seer Minisplit Heat Pumps

your mileage may vary... don't be scared...
 
OP
M

MushCreek

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
9,938
Location
Upstate South Carolina
You got lucky. The factory flares I got were junk. The system held vacuum on a cheap gauge, but leaked under 500 psi pressure. It leaked slowly, but after 24 hours, it had lost 100 psi- too much.
 

motterpaul

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 25, 2020
Messages
99
Location
CA
I have been working on getting my mini-split as good as I can get it. I invested in the torque wrench (hint- grab it at the end handle). My flares are all solid although I hate my flare block (very hard to set up).

The only thing that is now holding me back is drawing a vacuum. Yeah, if I just wanted to go by the manifold gauge I would be done - but I got a CPS micron gauge and I can tell it is not getting close to spec. I highly suspect two things - 1) my cheap hoses. Every time I isolate the vacuum it creeps back like crazy, plus I can't get it down below even a 500 psi reading). also - (2) possibly a cheap ball valve RVAC and/or bad grommets.

It really pays to buy the quality stuff if you want to do it right.
 

jjrbus

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2018
Messages
628
Location
Florida
I have been working on getting my mini-split as good as I can get it. I invested in the torque wrench (hint- grab it at the end handle). My flares are all solid although I hate my flare block (very hard to set up).

The only thing that is now holding me back is drawing a vacuum. Yeah, if I just wanted to go by the manifold gauge I would be done - but I got a CPS micron gauge and I can tell it is not getting close to spec. I highly suspect two things - 1) my cheap hoses. Every time I isolate the vacuum it creeps back like crazy, plus I can't get it down below even a 500 psi reading). also - (2) possibly a cheap ball valve RVAC and/or bad grommets.

It really pays to buy the quality stuff if you want to do it right.
Even buying the quality tools is cheap compared to having it installed. Then hoping it is done right! I just added a ultrasonic leak detector to my tool box for less than someone posted for 2 service calls which did not find or fix the leak!
 

bonneyman

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Messages
8,857
Location
Desert SW
I could poo-poo companies who won't touch DIY installs, but I myself shied away from them. Once I touch the unit as a licensed contractor I was married to it, and the few "favors" I did for people came back to bite me in the ****. So I quit doing it.

If I walked up to a unit - and the customer was being coy - I'd read the label and deduce the age from the serial number. (I could usually tell from the welding and wiring anyhow, but a label check confirmed it). If it was less than 5 years I'd tell them to call the installer and have them come out - you might have a warranty call. Then they might admit they did it. I told them I chose not do work on DIY systems because of the liability concerns. But at least I came out, and I didn't shaft the customer with 2 or more service calls and then tell them.
 
Last edited:

Aileron

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 15, 2019
Messages
483
Location
outside
Sometimes the micron gauges gets a bit of oil or debris on the sensor and go flaky. Some you can clean with alcohol. Make sure your gauge hose gaskets are good. Maybe its just mine from different refrigerants and oils but they last like a snow cone in hell these days Make sure when you check your vacuum test the pump is shut down and isolated and not bleeding back thru. For bending your line, i haven't personally used these yet but checkout , https://rectorseal.com/easybend-full-kit.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom