I need a boiler dude!

[craigibc]

I just bought a new house and for the first time in my life I am dealing with a boiler. It was just installed in 2013 and seems to work great! Actually a little to great. Since moving in I have kept two of the 3 thermostats off in the house and the place is cooking like 75' and there is no way to adjust it or turn it off.

The only thermostat that seems to work is the kitchen and that one works great and responds all the rest are turned off but a ton of heat is coming out. We are opening the windows in Buffalo, NY in the middle of winter just to cool the place down so we can sleep at night.

I have attached a few pics of what I am working with I am hoping you can give me some advice. Tonight I shut the water off to all the zones but the kitchen to hope alleviate the heat till I can figure out how to adjust it.

Dunkirk Boiler installed in 2013
Taco 4 Zone Valve Control
Honeywell themostats

Any advice?

Thanks,

Craig

 

[ambenz]

With no call for heat at any zone, are any of the zone pumps running?
If they are you might have a stuck relay that runs the pumps.
It could also be the signal from the thermostat calling for heat if the thermocouple inside the thermostat is defective, check at the main board for a voltage.
If no pumps are running, you may have thermo energy rising up the pipes.
I would be nice to have a Outside Air Temp reset on the unit as I am sure it possibly maintains 180F no matter if the OAT is -5 or 50F.
Nice unit, I am guessing it's a stuck on relay, relays.

 

[pstnbly]

We need a lot more information, pictures of the system from a wider view, what kind of radiation, house configuration and such. You have some issues existing here, all the relays but 1 are removed from the Taco relay board, all but 1 zone valved off, and serious ghost flows.

I would suggest getting better pictures and heading over to HeatingHelp.com, enter the forum called "The Wall" and post your situation. Some of the best HVAC and boiler pros in the world hang out there, they also have a great referral network.

 

[craigibc]

Ok here are some more photos and hope this will give you some more insight.

The house was built in 1840 and it is two stories and most of the radiators are these giant old fashion ones that are cast iron.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

It looks to me like 3 of the zones are shut off according to the ball valves anyway.

 

[pstnbly]

Apparently a converted steam system. There is probably a connection where the zones are connected allowing thermo siphoning to take place. The ball valves being closed above the zone circs was a half assed attempt to keep the system under control. This system needs professional help, probably never worked from the day of conversion, maybe bad DIY. Some repiping will probably be needed.

 

[craigibc]

Well I can tell you that I was the one that turned off the ball valves off last night trying to control the temp in the house. With all the valves turned of I got the temp to 72' and much more manageable to sleep in last night.

The former owner paid a "pro" to do the just a few weeks ago and it did come with a 1 year warranty. When I called him about this issue he went dark most likely because he is way over his head on this work.

I guess I am going to get a second opinion this week and see what is really going on.

Craig

 

[pstnbly]

Try closing a couple of radiator valves and see if you can get 1 or more of the ghosting zones to get cool.

 

[pstnbly]

Unfortunately steam to hot water conversions rarely ever go well, some knowledge of steam is needed. It's unfortunate that this system was hacked because a good running steam system can be economical and very comfortable.

 

[dfiler2]

The thermo siphoning or ghost flow is the problem, assuming you have already ruled out what ambenz said above. You will need to have some 2-way zone valves installed. It looks like you have 007 Taco circulators, check to see if they might be priority pumps, pull the electrical cover off of one and see if there is a circuit board and switch inside. If there is controlling the system through some 2-way zone valves would be pretty simple. If you can sweat copper you could do it yourself.

You might also be able to use 4 flow/check valves which would be cheaper if you did it yourself.

 

[mygarageone]

Unfortunately steam to hot water conversions rarely ever go well, some knowledge of steam is needed. It's unfortunate that this system was hacked because a good running steam system can be economical and very comfortable.

Sorry but you don't know what the hell your talking about.
Not only have I seen many a converted systems but I have done my share of them.
Done correctly they work just fine .

I don't know enough about the po system but I sure am not going to condem it before all the info is posted.
But I suspect his problem is a simple issue not yet discovered.

 

[mygarageone]

I have a couple of questions,

Are those pumps on the supply or return piping ? Are they pumping to the boiler or away from it ?
Does the boiler have it's own circulator ?

Are all the pumps actualy off ? Something is stuck some where or your boiler would'nt fire up and if all the circ pumps are off and you have a boiler circ and the boiler is running , you will have run away heat , especially if your circ pumps are on the return piping .

 

[mygarageone]

After looking at pics again , those pumps sure appear to be on the return side of the boiler.
If so , they won't stop heat migration from boiler if there no flow control on piping.

But I'm guessing because I don't have enough info .

 

[dogdog]

I would start with that taco zone controller and figure out from there... to see if or any other pump is running if only one zone is activated. I believe you can just jump R and W wire of each zone to manually force the pumps to activate one at a time, that and then check if hot water is flowing into other zones if only one of the zone pump is activated ? Not sure, but most systems I help out friends with have this zoning controller, and zoning valve before the pump... and the pump is on the supply side not on the return side from the pic, the flow of the arrow flows into the boiler.... Maybe call the installer and ask why?

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywel...-closed-120v?gclid=CJv67sWG1coCFdQYHwodgKsIFw


https://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-389.pdf


as far as if it is a steam or hydronic..... The boiler can be both and doesn't seems to be set up as a steam boiler before even though those radiator can be both as well.
BTW those cast iron are the best radiators around for steam or hydronic.....


Maybe the installer cheap out on the zoning valves..... if not install 4 or 5 dependents on how many zone you have.

 

[dogdog]

This link...explains the zoning valve.

 

[roscoe2000]

I think what you have is no more than a setup issue. You would need a copy of the Owner and Maintenance manual from the manufacturer. Other wise you need to determine your zone layout. Then confirmed that the correct thermostat is controlling the correct zone. Next is where you need the O&M manual to confirm the proper wiring for the Boiler controller. Not having a wiring diagram handly and the O&M manual, I suspect that Zone pump 3 wiring or the lack of a priority zone. Try to post a link to the manufacturer's data.

 

[roscoe2000]

It is far less stressful for the pumps to be on the return side which would in theory have lower temps.

 

[roscoe2000]

Just saw the wire diagram, zone 3 has questionable wiring. I see two pairs (B & W) tied into that zone with one pair for the pump it look like the second pair may be tied into the main power supply.

I see 4 cable coming in to the the bottom of the controller, what is the second from the right feeding.

 

[pstnbly]

Sorry but you don't know what the hell your talking about.
Not only have I seen many a converted systems but I have done my share of them.
Done correctly they work just fine .

I don't know enough about the po system but I sure am not going to condem it before all the info is posted.
But I suspect his problem is a simple issue not yet discovered.

Despite the unnecessary attack I know a little about the subject at hand. I would prefer to have a reasonable discussion and assist the op instead of a **** swinging match. As to Roscoe's point, the circulators should be pumping away from the heat source and the expansion tank should be prior to the pumps at the POZPC ( point of zero pressure change) as recommended by Dan Hollohan in his book "Pumping away" and supported by Zegenthaller who is the recognized leading expert on hydronic design.

That being said systems have been working for 75 + years pumping towards the boiler. Without really seeing the system my impression from the pics is the system is way over pumped using those zone circulators. As has been mentioned it probably should have utilized zone valves and a properly sized circulator possibly an ECM circ such as a Grundfos Alpha, or a delta t Taco circ.

In any event a pro needs to look at the system, do a proper room by room heat loss and make changes based on sound baselines, anything else is wild speculation.

mygarageone, reread my post, I did not say steam to hot water systems do not work, my point was unless care is taken to use proper baselines to properly size circulators and zones many of these systems become hacked and lead to situations as we have here. If I were a betting man my money would be on the boiler being quite a bit oversize for the house and the house being broken up into too many zones leading to wild short cycling of the boiler and a shortened lifespan of the boiler and a lowered degree of comfort within the home.

Once again I recommend going to "The wall" and getting a referral to a qualified boiler pro. In the long run paying a pro will bring dividends in lower fuel consumption and increased comfort. Trying to get advice here on a system with these problems might not be the best solution.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I would start with that taco zone controller and figure out from there... to see if or any other pump is running if only one zone is activated. I believe you can just jump R and W wire of each zone to manually force the pumps to activate one at a time, that and then check if hot water is flowing into other zones if only one of the zone pump is activated ? Not sure, but most systems I help out friends with have this zoning controller, and zoning valve before the pump... and the pump is on the supply side not on the return side from the pic, the flow of the arrow flows into the boiler.... Maybe call the installer and ask why?

http://www.supplyhouse.com/Honeywel...-closed-120v?gclid=CJv67sWG1coCFdQYHwodgKsIFw

https://www.taco-hvac.com/uploads/FileLibrary/102-389.pdf


as far as if it is a steam or hydronic..... The boiler can be both and doesn't seems to be set up as a steam boiler before even though those radiator can be both as well.
BTW those cast iron are the best radiators around for steam or hydronic.....


Maybe the installer cheap out on the zoning valves..... if not install 4 or 5 dependents on how many zone you have.

 

[Doublet74]

Looking at your system from the pics above. I'd say your better off calling an electrician than a plumber. Although not the way I would pipe it. It SHOULD work. I'd say there is a wiring problem. Probably between the zone valve, the pump, and the thermostat. Good Luck.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

Unfortunately steam to hot water conversions rarely ever go well, some knowledge of steam is needed. It's unfortunate that this system was hacked because a good running steam system can be economical and very comfortable.

Seriously. How many steam-to-hot water systems have you done.

By the way. There is no evidence from the pix that this was ever a steam system.

I sounds like a control problem, which could put you in danger.

The OP should call a real boiler guy, this is a gear-head forum. God love 'em.

 

[whitespys]

If I were in your shoes, I would start with the controller with the relays.
I'd check the voltage across each screw pair with no thermostats calling for heat, then with all thermostats calling for heat.
If a particular relay does not change, then it is stuck.
0V AC = closed relay and calling for heat.
120V AC = open relay and not calling for heat.
If you don't feel confident working with electricity that may carry a large current DO NOT attempt this.
YMMV


Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

 

[mygarageone]

Seriously. How many steam-to-hot water systems have you done.

By the way. There is no evidence from the pix that this was ever a steam system.

I sounds like a control problem, which could put you in danger.

The OP should call a real boiler guy, this is a gear-head forum. God love 'em.

Kind of hard to deny it was steam at one time , the radiators alone kind of tells the story.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

Indeed. The radiator says I never was hooked up to steam. I speak radiator.

In fact there is no evidence of steam in any of the pictures, just a of over-pumping an over-sized expansion tank and some questionable PEX tubing hanging around.

 

[mygarageone]

Indeed. The radiator says I never was hooked up to steam. I speak radiator.

In fact there is no evidence of steam in any of the pictures, just a of over-pumping an over-sized expansion tank and some questionable PEX tubing hanging around.

Will you please elaborate , what you said makes no sense.

Just because you See no signs of steam piping , does mean it was not steam at one time . The Rads pretty much tell the story , and who would haul in the old rads to use in a hydronic system any way , no one I ever meet.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

This radiator has no steam vent, nor evidence of one. It does however have an air vent at the top right corner. Something absent from made-for-steam radiators. This models can be used for both but since the rad elbow on the right and the valve on the left appear to be original, your opinion is just that.

 

[mygarageone]

If they converted to hot water they would have eliminated the steam vert , yes.
I repeat myself .

I have never heard or seen any plumber / heating contractor haul in the old style steams for a hydronic system .
But you have your opinion .

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

This is a thin tube cast iron radiator. It may be used for steam or hot water systems. This one shows no evidence of ever being used for steam. In fact thin tube radiator was designed for hot water heat in the late 1920's.

One can conclude from this that is was installed originally in a hot water system as most were, steam heating being all but dead at the time this system was installed.

Many homes here in Minneapolis were fit with gravity hydronic systems at the turn of the century, but this is a modern radiator in comparison.

I am a plumber and a heating contractor. And you are?

 

[roscoe2000]

The old style Steam radiators come in two pipping arrangements. One pipe or two pipe system. A one pipe system is self explanatory, ie the same pipe is the steam supply and condensate return. A two pipe system has the steam supply piped in to the top of the radiator and the condensate return is at the bottom. Both, the two and a one pipe would more than likely used a steam trap as well.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

A steam radiator may be one-pipe, or two. A one-pipe steam radiator will not have a trap, since steam and condensate must pass through one pipe. If a radiator has but one pipe it must be steam and must have a vent.

A two-pipe steam, or hydronic radiator for that matter, should be piped from the top supply and bottom return, but as it is today, some people didn't know what they were doing and weren't bright enough to ask. So you will see all sorts of radiator piped from the bottom. This diminishes potential output, steam or hydronic, but if people are warm they don't complain.

 

[acmikee]

the radiator looks like it was a 2 pipe steam radiator with a hand valve on one side and a trap on the other end. I suspect that you have a piping problem. I would start by confirming the operation of each pump to each tstat. then operate one pump at a time and see which radiators get hot.
you might look in adding thermostatic radiator valves to control your zones and operate the boiler off of a single stat or time clock

 

[whitespys]

Not to interrupt the conversation, but how's the heat situation craigibc? I forgot to ask, are the circulators constantly running?

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

 

[mygarageone]

This is a thin tube cast iron radiator. It may be used for steam or hot water systems. This one shows no evidence of ever being used for steam. In fact thin tube radiator was designed for hot water heat in the late 1920's.

One can conclude from this that is was installed originally in a hot water system as most were, steam heating being all but dead at the time this system was installed.

Many homes here in Minneapolis were fit with gravity hydronic systems at the turn of the century, but this is a modern radiator in comparison.

I am a plumber and a heating contractor. And you are?

I see according to your web site BIO , you were the President of Glowcore boiler manufacturing ?
Is that really true ?

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

Yes.

 

[Jakkle5]

Well I can tell you that I was the one that turned off the ball valves off last night trying to control the temp in the house. With all the valves turned of I got the temp to 72' and much more manageable to sleep in last night.

The former owner paid a "pro" to do the just a few weeks ago and it did come with a 1 year warranty. When I called him about this issue he went dark most likely because he is way over his head on this work.

I guess I am going to get a second opinion this week and see what is really going on.

Craig

That was not a new install a few weeks ago.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

You have no zone valves and the pumps are on the return so you get heat everywhere when any one of the pumps is running. The pumps should be on the supply without zone valves.



Tommy

 

[mygarageone]

You have no zone valves and the pumps are on the return so you get heat everywhere when any one of the pumps is running. The pumps should be on the supply without zone valves.



Tommy

That's exactly it , I see no flow controls at all . Therefore migration .

 

[mik386]

Check valves present?

 

[ctfjr]

WOW! if there was ever a question that this discussion was happening on the internet. . .

It appears that some of the posters have seen the issue. From the images posted I do not see a flow control valve (flo-check) on any of the supply lines. If that is the case, that's the problem. The OP is getting gravity flow through each loop even when the pumps are not calling.

There may be other issues but this appears to be the most obvious.