I'm so confused. Help me out here

[BFHtime]

Hiball, to answer your question. EE, PhD specializing in semiconductor manufacturing. Expert in patterned wafer defect detection tools, primarily KLA-Tencor. 40 years in the field. I think I've seen more innovation than any man alive. From Kilby and Noyce's first IC to the latest Pentiums. I understand what innovation is what I don't understand is why one piece of forged metal is considered different than what amounts to an identical piece of forged metal made by the identical metallurgical process. What has changed in the making of a wrench or a toolbox in 50 years?

The problem here is, that they are not identical. A gold plated watch may appear the same as a so called solid gold watch, as a diamonds in the face or bezel may appear the same as cubic zirconia. Also lets not confuse looks with function.

Too bad you do not have a degree in metallurgy or tool design. This made me think of one of my graduate professors, who had a degree in EE as well as at least on Doctorate in another area of science, amongst other things. He said BS stands for BS bull ****, and PhD stands for piled higher and deeper. To some extent there is some truth, but education also has value, for those that value it. kind of like tools, or a watch, or that rare $50k Jimmy Hendrix poster I saw on the antiques roadshow yesterday.

 

[BFHtime]

OK I'll pretend that this point is true although I really don't believe it. Does anybody really pull hard on a bolt with an open end wrench? I don't. When something doesn't want to give it up I use the box end or a socket. If it's a line of some sort I use a flare nut wrench, but I never apply serious torque with an open end and see no reason to ever do so. I saw WoodstockVA's video of the Wright open end and the Snap-On open end wrenches and said that's nice to myself but why the hell would you not use the box end for that. Is there ever a real application where open end wrenches must be used at maximum torque where a box wrench or a socket will not work? I've not encountered such a situation.

A situation may occur where there is a clearance issue, where a box end or a socket may not fit. That is what the Flank drive plus is for. If you wrench enough you will run into a situation where clearance will be an issue. I hate when I can't use the ratcheting end of a wrench, which happens more often than I would like it to.

 

[kazlx]

He's an engineer, why would he be working on anything?

 

[BFHtime]

Agreed. But, if I was to boast about my $35 watch, dissing others, then , surely I have invited criticism ??

Timekeeping: my iPhone keeps PERFECT time, I would be wasting my money on a Casio.
I am gobsmacked that an engineer does not appreciate the fine workings of a mechanical watch.

But.... that is not the point I guess ??? I think the OP is kinda trolling , IMHO - no offense. I have a $5 Lorus so I think I can legitimately post this.

X2

I have a G-shock that broke the wrist band at a very un-opportune time, but with odds similar to the winning lottery, I found it, after had loosing it. I was very lucky to recover it.

 

[BFHtime]

And I would dare to say that no one is right or wrong. The wide selection of products of different categories ranging from watches through cars to tool boxes gives us the liberty of choice. That is the most important that we can chose whatever suits our needs. If one is happy with his watch because it tells accurate time it's fine. If someone else is happy with super expensive watch because it tells time and looks expensive and luxurious that's fine too. I think everyone has a little something that they would put all the money into because it's their passion, their "thing". For some watches, for others bikes, for women high heels (hehe), phones etc. It's a liberty of choice and ability and privilege to chose from many, many options.

I agree, great post. I still have my I-phone from a few years ago 5+ iPhone4. I like it, have no problems with it, so no immediate desire or need to upgrade. I have had this phone longer than any other to date. But I am a sucker for a deal on some good quality tools.

 

[BFHtime]

why is a readers digest not in a museum next to the mona lisa? they are both paper with colors.

answer that question and you have your answer, i know you can do it without being difficult for yourself as well. the whole point of this thread was to stir up some junk between the people who use tools as tools and don't care as long as it works, and the people who are brand loyalists who enjoy buying things all the same brand, and people who drink koolaid all day regardless of the flavor.

theres no reason to pretend like you don't understand why one silicon chip is worth more than another.

Well said.

 

[merbie]

these threads need to be closed down faster

 

[BFHtime]

HiBall, here is what you're missing. In the 1970's all semiconductor organizations made their own tools and developed their own manufacturing technologies. When I needed an epi reactor at Westinghouse R&D Center in 1974 I designed it and had our extraordinarily well equipped machine shops make it. Then Applied Materials and Gemini came along and sold epi reactors to everybody. Not only did they provide the machines they also provided the process to run on the machines. I'm sure that Snap-On had proprietary methods in the 1970's that made their wrenches better than everybody else's because they made most of the tools to make them and developed their own proprietary processes. Almost without question, this is no longer true. They buy their production tools from tool makers (likely German) who will sell them the tool with a guaranteed process to Snap-on, TOPTUL, Ko-Ken and anybody else with the money to buy them. Heat treating steel was once no doubt a tightly kept trade secret, these days a simple search on the Internet will provide you with excellent formulas for the heat treatment of steel. What was once a competitive advantage is now public domain. Information is everywhere. Do you think Snap-On knows more about heat treating steel than TOPTUL and many others. The clear answer to that is not anymore.

When I was at Westinghouse I was an industry mentor to MIT's semiconductor research group. 95% of the graduate students in this group were Chinese or Indian. The same is true of every major research university in America. Who do you think are now developing these advanced processes - THEY ARE, not us.

I'm sad to say this but you're living in the past. Actually, the distant past.

Maybe more research is needed on your part. Snap-On branded items are made by Snap-On. There is more to the process of making a tool than heat treatment. The metals and that are added, what proportion, what point in the process, and many other factors, are also important, in the final product, otherwise they would all be the same, but they are not. Even the German made and Swiss made tools have different processes and quality. It reminds me of when I was a kid and broke my cheap Swiss army knife. It looked just like the real deal, but when I broke half the tools on it and chipped the blade, i found the quality was not the same, but they were both red and we're both knives. Probably need an engineer to figure out the difference between the two though, (intentionally Richardish).

 

[BFHtime]

Kracin, you have hit upon the KEY POINT. I DO understand why one silicon chip is worth more than another. The expensive chip has a line width in nanometers and the cheap chip a linewidth in microns. The expensive chip took a billion dollar factory to produce and the cheap chip a factory filled with used tools that cost 75 million.

In the tool game everybody is at this late point in time are almost certainly using the same tools (very likely made in Germany) to make the same products. This is the key difference. Bending up a tool box uses the same level of technology no matter where or who bends it up. SO WHY PAY MORE THAN YOU HAVE TO?

An I-phone can do more than my LG flipper. It should cost more. This differentiation no longer applies to most tools.

Why pay more for a nano chip when I can buy a micro chip, when they both do the same math?

 

[BFHtime]

Absolutely Not missing anything, I Believe if you go back and re-read what I typed i clearly said the same thing in regards to Ten years versus 50 years ago.




I would like to see some public information on Snap on or any major brand in regards to heat treating, that included temp/duration of any other specifics. Secondly.. There are a lot of factors that go into RD of hand tools outside of metallurgy. How about ergonomics? Might not mean much to your average tinkerer, but what about the guy working 50 hours a week? Choices are good, why some of you want to argue this the end is beyond me.

Sometimes people ask about what they do not know. They have a position and may be looking for a reason to change it. This is giving the benefit of the doubt against trolling.

 

[BFHtime]

the problem with your example, and your logic is that Baldor is the exception, not the rule. Most world class mechanical & electrical items, best of breed so to speak, whether they are cars, wristwatches, cameras, phones or a zillion other things, are typically NOT made in America these days. The best quality of a particular item is typically something German, Japanese, Korean, Swiss, Taiwanese or whatever.

This is because of economical issues with regards to manufacturing. But some of the better quality brands, considered to the best are still manufactured in the US. Snap-On tools being one of them. Vita-mix blenders. Spire laptop back pack. These are just some off the top of my head. No one builds the best of everything including Snap-On, but they are the reference to which many other tools are compared to for a reason. I prefer some of my Craftman tools instead of Snap-On at times. In general you get what you pay for, as much as I dislike blanket statements, there is a reason that is still used too.

 

[BFHtime]

Sorry to say but "Made in Usa" and "good quality" is something you very rarely see in same sentence and in positive note here abroads. In fact the only exception where you see that belief repeated all over seems to be US based web forums. Its good to be patriotic but maybe its good to sometimes hear what others think too? Why is there so little USA made stuff sold in Europe? Because nobody buys it when they can get better quality for less.

I do have 3 American cars and boxes full of S-O tools. US cars are considered **** (outside those circles who still dress in 50's clothes) and the running joke here is that American cars are delivered to customers as semi finished products and as its the owners job to finish them - that is called a car hobby. S-O, IR and few other brands of tools on the other hand, I like them very much. They are pretty much the same quality as better German tools but with nicer looks (and double price).

...pulling my flamesuit on now...

This is an assumption, but I would expect that Snap-On prices here are cheaper than Europe, and that German tools are cheaper in Europe, than in the US. As far as cheaper tools, check out what the price for a gendore wrench set is on the the us lowe's site, and then compare that to Snap-ON (type in geodoe in the search bar). I would like to perpetuate the making of good US made products made by people of the US, so I buy a Snap-On tools. If I did not care about that then maybe I would consider another brand, even German made. I have some Geman made tools, but by far more US made tools. Mostly because of Craftsman and Snap-On, but not in that order.

 

[BFHtime]

CD
No need for the suit. Logical people will realize that geographic loyalties are just kind of buggywhippish. c.f.

U.S. people do not understand that paying double based on where an item is made is tantamount to a welfare tax. My charitable donations might be different than their donations...the difference is I recognize mine as a loss to me to benefit someone in need.

Except for geography, most don't know why they do it.
Based on their theory it would be best to buy Mexican tools so as to raise their economy high enough that illegals stay home...generating more jobs here.

My logic is to support a company that innovates, and makes a better product. Not an ok product knock off, that is good enough. I am one of those people that would like the best, I know I cannot afford to have the best of everything, it is not possible anyway, as there are always compromises. When it comes to tools, I want, top quality, because at some point in time I expect that I will put that tool to the test. I have broken tools and it can hurt. So I do not want to take chances with getting hurt. This always kills me, like the guy that maybe wrenches on his car every once in a while, it is ok for him to get hurt using a cheap tool, but someone who uses them everyday it is not ok to use a cheap tool. The person who is the so-called weekend warrior can still get hurt if a cheap tool fails. An injury can cause this weekend warrior to lose money as well. I try to reduce this risk.

I also would like to support us jobs by supporting a U.S. company, despite globalization, if a German invests in Snap-On and makes money off of it, good for them. Another way of looking at it could be that employing more people in this country, could lead to less welfare in this country.

 

[bcradio]

Tearin up the post count there BFH

 

[TedF13]

I wear a $35 Casio watch. It does everything I can imagine a watch doing. .....

So we have these Snap-On wrench arguments and tool box arguments. If.....

The toolbox argument about the Kirkland toolbox I saw at COSTCO is another perfect example.......

I'm an engineer so I'm literal. Something either works or it doesn't. I don't care what brand it is. Am I alone on this island?

No your not alone on an island. But you are still on an island. People outside the island don't care, don't want to care, can't hear you or see your signal, and are quite happy not to be on the island.

Ignore them and enjoy the sunsets.

 

[BFHtime]

That you "know". Most of us created things that never existed before. You probably couldn't imagine what.

Most engineers do not create the idea, they create solutions to get to someone else's idea.

I worked on jobs when I was in school, where the running joke when things did not work, and had to be figured out in place, was that it was engineered. Followed by laughter, to cover up frustration.

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

 

[BFHtime]

Well obviously I can't speak for every engineers mentality, nor there thought process or what they have or haven't created. What does that prove? Are you insinuating that you can or Do? The thing that most of them have in common, Again only the ones I've spoken with is that they are always trying to improve on or create a entirely New design. I've never known one that simply threw his hands up and said, Ah the hell with it.. A wrench is a wrench, why should I try and make it stronger/more comfortable etc.. Obviously in 2014 the leaps and gains are probably diminishing in certain areas, but I'm sure there are still engineers out here who have the drive to make better products in the tooling world.

This is a good point, I had a person that I met, that was an engineer for BIC, in the razor division. I remember talking with him about designs and things, and he said that, everything had already been done to razor. I kept thinking there has to be something new that could be done. He thought there was no way to improve the modern razor. This was at the time Gillette had the Mach three razor out for at least 5 years. He had given up. Well now Gillette makes a 5 blade razor, I don't know what they call it, I just buy it and use it. When I saw it, iAd to try it, because it took much coaxing by a friend to try the Mach3, way back when. After using the Mach 3 I did not want to go back. So when the new better thing came along I wanted to try it, then they added a ******** to it, and darn it, it was better too. I think of a razor as tool to shave my face. Like other tools like a good ratchet, after you use a good one, you do not want to go back to something lesser. Who is to say that, there is not another idea that could come out, and maybe someone will hire an engineer to figure out how to get the idea to work.

 

[BFHtime]

DanInVA, Point well made. I live in Arizona. Rusty nuts? never seen one. When I took off my Tie Rod Ends a cheap old S-K raised panel did it with little effort. There are benefits to living in a desert.

That could explain a lot. He could be dehydrated, or maybe his head is in the sand. I could not resist. I have responded to so many posts at this point why stop now.

Agreed being difficult. But sometimes that is how I work my way around something myself. Looking for the most extreme of extreme cases. Then beef something up to handle that extreme case.

 

[BFHtime]

For some reason this post made laugh out loud and shed a few tears of joy.

 

[BFHtime]

Tearin up the post count there BFH

I'm out of control

 

[BFHtime]

Agreed shut this thing down so I can stop posting.

 

[beatcad]

i dont know much about watches.
i dont jump from airplanes or deep dive underwater.
i am pretty rough on my body though.
my best watches have been timex and swatch.
they do only one job. tell time and take a punishing.
and they dont look like fancy jewelry or some nerdo rotating slide rule

sadly i got out of the habit of wearing a watch or my wedding ring about 15 years ago be cause my hands/arms were in to many engine bays or other tight spots.

yes its gay to argue high end vs mid grade vs low end anything(watches/cars/tools), but i did learn a few things in this thread

 

[wagzilla]

And as an engineer you should look at the slides they hold more weight there are more welds metal is thicker, Thicker casters better locking system powder coated in stead of paint nicer fit and finish life time warranty. they come to me and fix it. beside that nothing

James

 

[Kracin]

Most engineers do not create the idea, they create solutions to get to someone else's idea.

I worked on jobs when I was in school, where the running joke when things did not work, and had to be figured out in place, was that it was engineered. Followed by laughter, to cover up frustration.

Is it really a coincidence that the hammers with the biggest most destructive heads are called engineer hammers... I think not lol

 

[Haveblue]

use what ya got. I will abuse a cheap socket to press in a bearing..or will hit it hard with an impact, the good sockets get used hard, but not abused that way. It's all about what you need to do to get the job done..I don't even think about resale value...If my tools are up for sale, I am dead.

 

[86k10]

Why do people question what other people spend on anything or brand they bought? There is capable low end and high end item of anything out there. I don't care if you buy $2000 binoculars or $20 ones, they both do the same thing. Or a $50,000 truck or $500 truck, they both do the same thing.

As long as the money don't come from me you can buy $100k worth of toolboxes or watches. Its really not that confusing.

 

[TonyCH]

This is an assumption, but I would expect that Snap-On prices here are cheaper than Europe, and that German tools are cheaper in Europe, than in the US.....As far as cheaper tools, check out what the price for a gendore wrench set is on the the us lowe's site, and then compare that to Snap-ON (type in geodoe in the search bar).

Yes, you are right. Locally made tools tend to be cheaper than equal quality imported tools. But if we take an example: Snap On 13mm combination std length (OSHM130B): price USA $32.25, price Europe: about $37 ; Hazet 600N 13mm: Price USA ??, Europe: $12.5. So, the price of S-O doesn't change much when brought to EU but at 3x Hazet price its quite expensive. Stahlwille is at same level with Hazet in EU price and Gedore only $8.5.

So, S-O truck guys really need to be good salesmen here in Europe to sell their tools. And they are But many shop owners are quick to buy European as they can supply 3 guys with the same money S-O tools would cost for 1 guy.

Why have I bought any S-O as they are so expensive? Because I wanted to. And with luck I have found many good deals over the years so I haven't gone broke buying them. I don't buy tools with credit, I only buy what I can afford at any given time Regrets? No, they work as advertised and they are strong. When I was in my 20's I used mostly cheap market tools but later on with steady income I realized its nicer to work with nice tools which very rarely fail. And nowadays its a rare thing to stop a project due broken tool and having to drive to a store to buy a replacement. Much more stoppages due missing a proper tool than anything else, but even that is getting rare as I fill the gaps in my arsenal quickly.

In any case my wrenches are mostly Snap On and Hazet, ratchets Snap On, sockets Williams and Snap On etc. So, on some tools, without noticeably decline in quality, its much more affordable to get the lower positioned brand even if its imported. In my case Williams sockets instead of Hazet. IMO Williams and even Blue Point sockets represent very good price-quality ratio. Never broken one yet and nicely finished. This is all personal choice of course and I would not try to tell anybody else what they should buy.

The Lowes site doesn't show prices unless given an US zip code.

 

[wild cowboy]

Why have I bought any S-O as they are so expensive? Because I wanted to. And with luck I have found many good deals over the years so I haven't gone broke buying them. I don't buy tools with credit, I only buy what I can afford at any given time

The cheapest places in USA to find new Snap-On tools when you are in Finland are the US main ebay site, and here at GJ classifieds.

Or if you know a student or instructor over here at a US technical school, some of these schools get a full 64% off on Snap-On, so a part that is $100 on the truck is $36 to the student.

If you are patient, finding new Snap-On tools on ebay for 50% of the truck price is very feasible, before shipping cost to Finland. Not saying you can buy any new Snap-On tool you want at that discount on any given day, but over time you can!

I rarely find Hazet or Stahlwille deals over here

 

[dnschmidt]

I think most people have missed what I consider to be the main point of my original posting and deals with what audio engineers call HEADSPACE or HEADROOM.

My example of a Casio watch is what I consider to be a product with ZERO HEADSPACE. What I mean by that is that my $35 watch has no where to improve. It keeps perfect time synced to the NIST. IT CANNOT GET BETTER OR BE IMPROVED. Once a watch keeps perfect time what else is there for it to do?

I believe hand tools are very close to also running out of HEADSPACE. The technology of forging with respect to wrenches and the bending of sheet metal with respect to tool boxes has little changed in many, many years.

My argument has NOTHING to do with price, it has to do with differentiation. Why should I pay more for zero improvement in performance. I don't understand why SO cost 10X of brand X when brand X should be able to produce the identical product since brand X has access to the identical technology. In short what does SO offer that Gearwrench doesn't. Can somebody tell me, actually I would prefer PROVE TO ME what a 13mm SO combination wrench does better than a 13mm Gearwrench?

A Lamborgini cost 10X more than a Fiesta because it goes 3X as fast and looks cool (love the scissor doors). If two wrenches perform to the identical level without failure, I can't see how you can justify the 10X price difference unless it's pure vanity (e.g. Rolex). That's the point I'm trying to put forth.

And, I am not a Snap-On hater. I believe the Verus is a great tool and likely very much worth what SO charges for it. It has a great interface, combines the functions of a lab scope and a scanner and delivers what I consider value for dollar.

One poster noted that if a mechanic has a Kirkland toobox and HF or Craftsman tools he would not take his car there. My statement is that if he has a 10,000 SO toolbox filled with SO hand tools and a cheap code reader I wouldn't take my car there.

I prefer a mechanic with a cheap toolbox and hand tools that has factory level scan tools, that's going to give him a TRUE and demonstratable advantage over his less well equipped competitors.

Bottom line: a wrench is a hell of a lot less important in fixing my car than a scan tool is on a computer controlled car. That's where you should spend your money if you have a limited supply of it.

 

[ihrescue]

I'm an engineer so I'm literal. Something either works or it doesn't. I don't care what brand it is. Am I alone on this island?

You're right - it works or it doesn't, then the nuance starts and after knowing many engineers I can say that many of them care less about nuances.

I think some things that start to matter after the work or not work question are durability, design, materials, etc. If an open end wrench breaks after the tenth time you use it and you break or lacerated your hand as it slammed with force into the exhaust manifold that can be a problem and quality and confidence in the tool can matter. Maybe paying the extra money for a guaranteed tool helps avoid unpaid time off, lost time to replace the wrench, etc.

In regard to tool boxes again material and durability matter. There's no saying that how much you pay gets you the quality you may seek but that's the buyer's problem. Some of the cheap tool boxes have inferior material and construction. Drawers that don't open and close symmetrically and jam, drawer pulls that come off, metal construction that bends and dents with little effort. Thats what you often get with the lower cost items. The specification of lower cost tools and cabinets generally reflect less robust and durable materials and include less quality workmanship. To someone that uses their tools for a living less quality could negatively impact their work and I would think they would want to go with brands that have a reputation for durability and design quality. But they pay dearly for it and maybe that cost is transferred back to the customer.

I have a $35 Timex Expedition that I have had for over fifteen years. It is the perfect watch. Back lit and an alarm are the only extras. I have only put in two batteries in fifteen years, but have spent at least $50 bucks for new watch bands.

Good thought provoking thread, thanks.

 

[Banjorear]

I think most people have missed what I consider to be the main point of my original posting and deals with what audio engineers call HEADSPACE or HEADROOM.

My example of a Casio watch is what I consider to be a product with ZERO HEADSPACE. What I mean by that is that my $35 watch has no where to improve. It keeps perfect time synced to the NIST. IT CANNOT GET BETTER OR BE IMPROVED. Once a watch keeps perfect time what else is there for it to do?

I believe hand tools are very close to also running out of HEADSPACE. The technology of forging with respect to wrenches and the bending of sheet metal with respect to tool boxes has little changed in many, many years.

My argument has NOTHING to do with price, it has to do with differentiation. Why should I pay more for zero improvement in performance. I don't understand why SO cost 10X of brand X when brand X should be able to produce the identical product since brand X has access to the identical technology. In short what does SO offer that Gearwrench doesn't. Can somebody tell me, actually I would prefer PROVE TO ME what a 13mm SO combination wrench does better than a 13mm Gearwrench?

A Lamborgini cost 10X more than a Fiesta because it goes 3X as fast and looks cool (love the scissor doors). If two wrenches perform to the identical level without failure, I can't see how you can justify the 10X price difference unless it's pure vanity (e.g. Rolex). That's the point I'm trying to put forth.

And, I am not a Snap-On hater. I believe the Verus is a great tool and likely very much worth what SO charges for it. It has a great interface, combines the functions of a lab scope and a scanner and delivers what I consider value for dollar.

One poster noted that if a mechanic has a Kirkland toobox and HF or Craftsman tools he would not take his car there. My statement is that if he has a 10,000 SO toolbox filled with SO hand tools and a cheap code reader I wouldn't take my car there.

I prefer a mechanic with a cheap toolbox and hand tools that has factory level scan tools, that's going to give him a TRUE and demonstratable advantage over his less well equipped competitors.

Bottom line: a wrench is a hell of a lot less important in fixing my car than a scan tool is on a computer controlled car. That's where you should spend your money if you have a limited supply of it.

Some people are happy with just getting the lowest price regardless of quality. Other people want the best money can buy.

Whether it is tools, watches, cars, wine, etc.

I think if you really look at your choices as a whole, I would assume there is something you spend money on that equates to someone buying SO tools using your logic.

For example: Do you spend $14 a six pack of craft beer or do you buy PBR for $4.50. Do you drink $50 a bottle wine or drink $2 Chuck from Trader Joes?

Will you order a steak at a restaurant or get a hamburger? Do you drink Starbucks coffee or brew your own and carry it around in a travel mug?

This can go on for ever and there is no right or wrong answer. Who cares what other people spend their money on?

 

[Exceller8]

I find it kind of sad that an engineer doesn't understand that the forging process, quality of steel used, heat treating, etc... is not the same at Gearwrench as it is at Snap-On. Sure, they may look the same and may even function the same for awhile but for how long? You get what you pay for in this life and sometimes you've got to pay to get quality.

I have no problem with you saying that the Gearwrench works fine for you and you don't want to pay 10x more for Snap-On, that's your choice. To say that you don't understand is complete BS if you ask me!!

 

[Hiball]

I think most people have missed what I consider to be the main point of my original posting and deals with what audio engineers call HEADSPACE or HEADROOM.

My example of a Casio watch is what I consider to be a product with ZERO HEADSPACE. What I mean by that is that my $35 watch has no where to improve. It keeps perfect time synced to the NIST. IT CANNOT GET BETTER OR BE IMPROVED. Once a watch keeps perfect time what else is there for it to do?

I believe hand tools are very close to also running out of HEADSPACE. The technology of forging with respect to wrenches and the bending of sheet metal with respect to tool boxes has little changed in many, many years.

My argument has NOTHING to do with price, it has to do with differentiation. Why should I pay more for zero improvement in performance. I don't understand why SO cost 10X of brand X when brand X should be able to produce the identical product since brand X has access to the identical technology. In short what does SO offer that Gearwrench doesn't. Can somebody tell me, actually I would prefer PROVE TO ME what a 13mm SO combination wrench does better than a 13mm Gearwrench?

A Lamborgini cost 10X more than a Fiesta because it goes 3X as fast and looks cool (love the scissor doors). If two wrenches perform to the identical level without failure, I can't see how you can justify the 10X price difference unless it's pure vanity (e.g. Rolex). That's the point I'm trying to put forth.

And, I am not a Snap-On hater. I believe the Verus is a great tool and likely very much worth what SO charges for it. It has a great interface, combines the functions of a lab scope and a scanner and delivers what I consider value for dollar.

One poster noted that if a mechanic has a Kirkland toobox and HF or Craftsman tools he would not take his car there. My statement is that if he has a 10,000 SO toolbox filled with SO hand tools and a cheap code reader I wouldn't take my car there.

I prefer a mechanic with a cheap toolbox and hand tools that has factory level scan tools, that's going to give him a TRUE and demonstratable advantage over his less well equipped competitors.

Bottom line: a wrench is a hell of a lot less important in fixing my car than a scan tool is on a computer controlled car. That's where you should spend your money if you have a limited supply of it.

I'm having a hard time believing that your argument has "Nothing" to do with Price? Hell you couldn't even get out of the above quoted paragraph, let alone the entire post without bringing up pricing. I've never once rated a thread a 1 star, but you Win, choices make the world go around, why that confuses someone that obviously has some age on them "based" off your personal descriptions is beyond me.

 

[Banjorear]

I find it kind of sad that an engineer doesn't understand that the forging process, quality of steel used, heat treating, etc... is not the same at Gearwrench as it is at Snap-On. Sure, they may look the same and may even function the same for awhile but for how long? You get what you pay for in this life and sometimes you've got to pay to get quality.

I have no problem with you saying that the Gearwrench works fine for you and you don't want to pay 10x more for Snap-On, that's your choice. To say that you don't understand is complete BS if you ask me!!

I agree with you. Using the OP logic, using high quality steel would be suspect since you can get low price steel from China or somewhere else.

It's all the same, right?

 

[dnschmidt]

Why are you assuming Snap-On is the only source of high quality steel? They buy their stuff from somebody: Allegheny Technologies, Nucor, somebody. They don't make their own steel. How can you make the statement that their steel is better than anybody else's. Do you know this for a FACT. That's nonsense, they have no corner on whatever steel they use. YOU ARE INVENTING non-existent advantages for them.

Gearwrench or anybody else can go to a top tier steel supplier and say. Give me the same stuff Snap-On uses and that vendor will do exactly that. Furthermore if asked they will tell them EXACTLY how to properly heat treat the steel for maximum utility as they have extensive testing laboratories. Snap-On doesn't know metallurgy as well as a steel manufacturer does. It likely gets its recipes from them. The key point is SO CAN ANYBODY ELSE.

When I bought defect tools I went to KLA-Tencor and asked them: What is IBM using. They told me and I said I'll take two. You are imagining some form of proprietary knowledge that at this late date in metal forging technology doesn't exist.

When Henry Ford build Rouge River. He was completely vertically integrated he controlled everything going into the model T. NOBODY does that today. That's why your argument is senseless.

 

[kazlx]

They are using Snap-On as a named example to demonstrate that you are purposefully asking stupid questions that you already know the answer to...

Why do you spend $35 on a watch when there are plenty of accurate clocks you can check the time on for free? Seems redundant.

 

[dnschmidt]

I'm using SO as the most obvious example. My comments are not Snap-On specific. There are many others to which they also apply thus the watch analogy.

If somebody comes on here and says: I use Snap-On because I like it, it has a great feel for me and when my customers see my Snap-On toolbox it gives them a feeling of confidence in me so it's a great marketing tool. I say great!!! It's your money do what you want with it.

When somebody comes on here and makes claims of TECHNICAL SUPERIORITY that from what I can see don't exist that's what irks me. Don't try to tell me that by spending ten times as much it's ten times as good (at doing the job of turning a bolt) without hard proof. That it makes you feel good is not hard proof.

If Snap-On floats your boat, that's wonderful. Who can argue with that. But when you take this to the point of claiming they alone can leap tall buildings on a single bound, without a shred of scientific evidence to back up said claim, to me that's BS.

Don't try to justify a personal preference by citing IMMAGINARY advantages. That's all I'm saying.

Telling me that you wear a Rolex to attract gold digging hot chicks in Scottsdale works for me. I have a fake one for just that purpose, it's highly effective. Telling me that it keeps time better than my Casio, I think not.

 

[stikman56]

I'm using SO as the most obvious example. My comments are not Snap-On specific. There are many others to which they also apply thus the watch analogy.

If somebody comes on here and says: I use Snap-On because I like it, it has a great feel for me and when my customers see my Snap-On toolbox it gives them a feeling of confidence in me so it's a great marketing tool. I say great!!! It's your money do what you want with it.

When somebody comes on here and makes claims of TECHNICAL SUPERIORITY that from what I can see don't exist that's what irks me. Don't try to tell me that by spending ten times as much it's ten times as good (at doing the job of turning a bolt) without hard proof. That it makes you feel good is not hard proof.

If Snap-On floats your boat, that's wonderful. Who can argue with that. But when you take this to the point of claiming they alone can leap tall buildings on a single bound, without a shred of scientific evidence to back up said claim, to me that's BS.

Don't try to justify a personal preference by citing IMMAGINARY advantages. That's all I'm saying.

Telling me that you wear a Rolex to attract gold digging hot chicks in Scottsdale works for me. I have a fake one for just that purpose, it's highly effective. Telling me that it keeps time better than my Casio, I think not.

.....and their tool boxes won't tip over either. They have "superpowers". They add said superpowers at the Snap-On factory. Yeah,riiiiight!

 

[kazlx]

While Craftsman or whatever may get the job done, I don't think there is any denying that Snap-On (example) tools are nicer to use. I think I own one Snap-On ratchet, I just never had the money. As Craftsman gets crappier (IMO) I see myself moving over. I used SO tools exclusively when I worked for a shop and there is no question that they make nicer hand tools for the most part...and yes, that applies to wrenches. Metal, QC, design, whatever it is, they are definitely a step up. Is is worth the cost difference...nobody can answer that, but obviously enough people think so.