Impact sockets on hand ratchets

[_brian_]

We all know the idea why not to use chrome sockets on impact, and we also hear that using impact sockets on hand ratchets is fine. I however have a question on this. The logic makes sense... the chrome socket is too brittle for the impact and can shatter, whereas the impact sockets are manufactured to handle the impact and should it fail, fail in a crack vs shatter. I am speaking generally. Now when it comes to the other way around, is there a disadvantage to the impact socket on the hand ratchet?

I want to introduce an example using a bit socket. Please consider these images for illustration purposes only.

First we have a chrome style bit socket. These are commonly made with a CR-V socket with a S2 steel pressed in bit, or sometimes the bit is held in with a retaining clip and/or a set screw.



Then there is an impact style, which is often made of a single piece of CR-Mo steel, machined I am told.



So we know that the CR-V socket and the S2 steel is commonly hardened too much for impact use, making it easier to shatter and break. However, the hardness makes it nice for hand use as it does not wear as quickly. Looking at the impact socket, what does it bring to the hand tool? Is this design better than the chrome socket design, even on a hand ratchet? Or is it true that while you can use an impact socket on the hand ratchet, it is not as good as the chrome version, made for the hand ratchet?

It is my belief that the answer here is that the impact socket, a solid piece of machined CR-Mo steel, is a bit too soft and will wear faster than the CR-V and S2 chrome counterpart. However, I am interested in the thoughts of others, especially if any of the manufacturers here wish to provide input.

 

[Nutria]

That's an interesting question, and I don't claim to know the answer. I will say that I use impact sockets on breaker bars-- just seems to make sense to me.

 

[_brian_]

I have also heard from a few people that using impact extensions on hand ratchets perform better than chrome extensions, something about the twisting. I am also not sure on this.

 

[isb cornbinder]

I know that you are looking for a situation that does not exist. There may have been situations when a chrome socket has failed under impact loading, but it would be rare.
I worked with a few very old school mechanics. Many of them used the first socket of the size, chrome or impact, they needed and drove that socket with an impact.
The popular impact guns, at work, were the SnapOn 5100 and the Ingersol. I own a 5100. I run it on 150psi with a half inch hose.
I doubt that under reasonable daily use an impact socket will ever wear out.
I have a half inch drive set of MAC impact sockets in deep and short. I have used them for nearly 4 decades in both impact and manual. No problem.

 

[zendriver]

In 1/2", impacts are all I use with a ratchet, mostly because that is all I have in 6 point.

No reason not to. Keep considering some Icon 1/2" chrome, just seems wasteful.

 

[isb cornbinder]

I have also heard from a few people that using impact extensions on hand ratchets perform better than chrome extensions, something about the twisting. I am also not sure on this.

Someone does not understand torque transfer. The twist means nothing under a steady force. An impact makes an intermittent loading situation. This is where the twist can absorb some of the energy.

 

[_brian_]

I know that you are looking for a situation that does not exist. There may have been situations when a chrome socket has failed under impact loading, but it would be rare.
I worked with a few very old school mechanics. Many of them used the first socket of the size, chrome or impact, they needed and drove that socket with an impact.
The popular impact guns, at work, were the SnapOn 5100 and the Ingersol. I own a 5100. I run it on 150psi with a half inch hose.
I doubt that under reasonable daily use an impact socket will ever wear out.
I have a half inch drive set of MAC impact sockets in deep and short. I have used them for nearly 4 decades in both impact and manual. No problem.

I am not really looking for a situation. But as far as your statement, you are, in general, suggesting that the two socket types shown above are essentially the same for impact or hand use, aside from the inherent differences of the design and how that effects performance? Meaning for example, that one might have the bit fall out where the other cannot. Is this what you are meaning?

In all honesty, my experience has been limited as I generally do not use chrome on impact. However, in the times that I have, there has never been an issue.

 

[boom_bap]

Some impact socket mfgs won't warranty impact sockets used on hand tools. I speculate that is due to them fearing that the stresses will be more focused and you'd wallow out the drive ends prematurely? OTherwise I have no idea.

I too use 1/2 impacts only for the most part aside for a dedicated 22mm chrome for tires I leave in the car, and a 27mm for toyotas.

 

[_brian_]

Some impact socket mfgs won't warranty impact sockets used on hand tools.

I did not know this, but it does sort of justify my question here. It seems there is a reason NOT to use impact sockets on hand ratchets.

Let me sort of rephrase my query.... given my initial post, why would I but the chrome CR-V + S2 steel socket vs just getting the impact solid machined CR-Mo socket? Agree or not, the logic to not use chrome sockets on impact is clear. But in reverse, what if any disadvantages to the impact sockets bring to the hand ratchets?

 

[_brian_]

Someone does not understand torque transfer. The twist means nothing under a steady force. An impact makes an intermittent loading situation. This is where the twist can absorb some of the energy.

Can you possibly make sense from the general statement I heard? Does it make sense, possible with a better worded reason?

 

[isb cornbinder]

Can you possibly make sense from the general statement I heard? Does it make sense, possible with a better worded reason?

Can you possibly make sense from the general statement I heard?
What was the general statement?
I think it is important to consider the possibility that some things and ideas become
entrenched, firmly established and difficult or unlikely to change whether or not they are valid.
I have my father's original SK 12-point socket set. He bought it in 1945. Dad would use an impact, with these sockets, in later years. The Set is still appears lightly used.

 

[_brian_]

Can you possibly make sense from the general statement I heard?
What was the general statement?

Yes, that impact extensions used on a hand ratchet perform better than chrome extensions. The reasoning I heard was something to do with the twisting, torque loss, etc ... something like that. So is there a validity to the idea that using an impact extension on a hand ratchet is better than chrome for some reason?

 

[qqzj]

To me, impact sockets typically have less tight fit. So I often remove with impact and install, esp, torque with a chrome. I saved tons of money doing things myself. Can afford to splurge on tools.

 

[isb cornbinder]

I did not know this, but it does sort of justify my question here. It seems there is a reason NOT to use impact sockets on hand ratchets.

Let me sort of rephrase my query.... given my initial post, why would I but the chrome CR-V + S2 steel socket vs just getting the impact solid machined CR-Mo socket? Agree or not, the logic to not use chrome sockets on impact is clear. But in reverse, what if any disadvantages to the impact sockets bring to the hand ratchets?

No disadvantage. I good impact set will be more than enough for a home DIY person. If a person is a tool polisher the desire for more tools could outweigh need.

 

[Junkdrawer Dog]

I used to keep a few impact sockets squirreled away in my personal locker at work. I could use them with an impact or I could use them with my Klein spud ratchet with a cheater pipe, which ever suited the occasion.

 

[isb cornbinder]

Yes, that impact extensions used on a hand ratchet perform better than chrome extensions. The reasoning I heard was something to do with the twisting, torque loss, etc ... something like that. So is there a validity to the idea that using an impact extension on a hand ratchet is better than chrome for some reason?

When an extension is driven by hand with a ratchet or breaker bar, there is no difference, at the socket. Torque is not lost on a steady twisting action. Internittent impact action can be absorbed in the twist of an extension.
The Torque Test Channel showed how much impact torque can be lost through a universal joint as the angle of attack is increased.

 

[_brian_]

No disadvantage. I good impact set will be more than enough for a home DIY person. If a person is a tool polisher the desire for more tools could outweigh need.

I am for sure a DIY person, so your answer is applicable to me. However, what if I were a professional, using said sockets daily? Why might I want, for hand use only, the CR-V + S2 vs the CR-Mo, with their respective design styles? I mean not to pick into nothing, but this question has been eating at me.

When an extension is driven by hand with a ratchet or breaker bar, there is no difference, at the socket. Torque is not lost on a steady twisting action. Internittent impact action can be absorbed in the twist of an extension.

So the statement I heard you debunk... there is no reason that an impact extension, in reference to performance of the tool, is better than a chrome extension on a hand ratchet? Again I ask this as I do not know, this topic is quite puzzling to me. So please take it as that, I am asking stupid questions intelligently

 

[_brian_]

To me, impact sockets typically have less tight fit. So I often remove with impact and install, esp, torque with a chrome. I saved tons of money doing things myself. Can afford to splurge on tools.

That is interesting. I wonder if the "give" of an impact socket has any impact when used with a torque wrench? I would assume if it did, it would be minimal and almost negligible, but I do wonder.

With the tighter and looser fit, I am curious. Are impact sockets using different standards than chrome sockets? Or possibly what you experience is using the tooling further into the wearing than they do with chrome?

 

[dchawk81]

My chrome vanadium hand stuff is almost all 3/8 and 1/4 drive while almost all of my impact stuff is 1/2 drive and up.

I'm not buying a bunch of half inch drive vanadium for the occasional hand use.

I don't use 3/8 and smaller impact though. Never really felt the need for it. I do have 1/4 electric and air ratchets but since they don't impact the vanadium is fine.

 

[qqzj]

I am not an engineer, cannot save for you. But once you try yourself, you will see. When you torque some big bolts on suspension at an angle, I found it is not easy to torque them using impact sockets, even I used the same ones to remove them from suspension. If you want to do this for a while, I really suggest buying the 84 piece Tekton 1/2 drive 6 point set. The best bang for the buck by a mile.

Also chrome sockets are thinner so you can get into limited spaces. So sensors require big sockets with very little torque, and I found it is not easy to squeeze an impact socket with thick walls into the space. Anyway, I guess if you try it hard enough, you might be able to avoid it. But I found it is very satisfying to use chrome socket with hand tools.

If you really want to save some space, I heard Grey Pneumatic has thin wall impact socket. Maybe that will work.

 

[_brian_]

I am not an engineer, cannot save for you. But once you try yourself, you will see. When you torque some big bolts on suspension, I found it is not easy to torque them using impact sockets, even I used the same ones to remove them from suspension. If you want to do this for a while, I really suggest buying the 84 piece Tekton 1/2 drive 6 point set. The best bang for the buck by a mile.

Tekton does make a great tool. My only gripe is that the prices have risen quite a bit, removing some of that value.

My query was more on the use of impact on hand in general. To that, you have provided something I did not think of. I wonder, given my bit socket example, if that is a difference. It does make sense, to my novice brain, that the impact rated tool is softer and more malleable than the hand only.

i am not looking for a reason NOT to buy tools, especially the right tool for the job. I am looking to determine what that right tool is, and why. I dont want to buy a tool for a gimmick reason, or for a reason that sits in myth vs reality. I am looking to have facts to support things.

 

[Belanice]

I would also like to know the answer. I asked KING TONY before and they just repeat my questions without giving any answers.

 

[tattooman]

I am not an engineer, cannot save for you. But once you try yourself, you will see. When you torque some big bolts on suspension at an angle, I found it is not easy to torque them using impact sockets, even I used the same ones to remove them from suspension. If you want to do this for a while, I really suggest buying the 84 piece Tekton 1/2 drive 6 point set. The best bang for the buck by a mile.

Also chrome sockets are thinner so you can get into limited spaces. So sensors require big sockets with very little torque, and I found it is not easy to squeeze an impact socket with thick walls into the space. Anyway, I guess if you try it hard enough, you might be able to avoid it. But I found it is very satisfying to use chrome socket with hand tools.

If you really want to save some space, I heard Grey Pneumatic has thin wall impact socket. Maybe that will work.

I don't have many impact sockets, but qqzj is right about chrome hand sockets being thinner. I use mostly chrome hand sockets, and besides being thinner, I THINK they transmit torque a little more smartly when using by hand compared to my "softer" steel impact sockets. But I don't the real answer to the OP's original question. I've asked myself the same question though. I do like the fact however that my chromes clean up very nicely compared to impacts, but that's probably just me with the bling factor.

I wish a professional mechanic in the know could answer the OP's question. If the answer can't be answered directly and scientifically, or otherwise that makes sense and is provable with authoritative evidence, I'd say the OP's question remains unanswered.

 

[_brian_]

I do like the fact however that my chromes clean up very nicely compared to impacts, but that's probably just me with the bling factor.

I have changed from the shiny chrome preference to the matte finish myself, but I understand your point. The black oxide or phosphate finish does retain a lot of soiling and will rust easily if not used or oiled in some way periodically. Rust happens fast on many US brands of bit sockets, such as Gearwrench, the most trusted name in rust bit sockets. Best fix I found is white petrolatum, VERY light coating.

 

[isb cornbinder]

Tekton does make a great tool. My only gripe is that the prices have risen quite a bit, removing some of that value.

My query was more on the use of impact on hand in general. To that, you have provided something I did not think of. I wonder, given my bit socket example, if that is a difference. It does make sense, to my novice brain, that the impact rated tool is softer and more malleable than the hand only.

i am not looking for a reason NOT to buy tools, especially the right tool for the job. I am looking to determine what that right tool is, and why. I dont want to buy a tool for a gimmick reason, or for a reason that sits in myth vs reality. I am looking to have facts to support things.

I have SUNNEX and MAC impact sockets 1/2" and 3/8". Both sets are what I would call "thin-wall).
I want you to think about the softer mailable suggestion for impact sockets. If this is true, a good beating from a hard-hitting impact would totally destroy the sockets.
f any person likes to use a specific socket for their task, go for it. If you are criticized for this, I say, "Don't worry about it." Remember, it is your way, and you are doing something. Critics are watchers and often not doers.
I like to keep my shop doors closed to limit visitors. Life is so much better, for me, this way.

 

[_brian_]

I have SUNNEX and MAC impact sockets 1/2" and 3/8". Both sets are what I would call "thin-wall).
I want you to think about the softer mailable suggestion for impact sockets. If this is true, a good beating from a hard-hitting impact would totally destroy the sockets.
f any person likes to use a specific socket for their task, go for it. If you are criticized for this, I say, "Don't worry about it." Remember, it is your way, and you are doing something. Critics are watchers and often not doers.
I like to keep my shop doors closed to limit visitors. Life is so much better, for me, this way.

I hear you. However, as example, I hear and have personally seen how Snap-On impact sockets wear out quite fast compared to other brands, used as impacts. This means that there is a factor of malleability here too. Now, my statement there relates to the use of the impact socket on the impact. But, how does that carry over to the use of the impact socket on the hand ratchet?

Please do not misunderstand. As a DIYer, there are many things that done technically right or wrong regarding tool use will never matter as I do not have the amount of use to make it tangible. However, as a person of science, the answer keeps me up at night. I agree that those who do generally do not care about those who talk. In this case, I have interest in both sides. My brain demands things from me that seem to annoy others.

Sunex I can say is a good brand, although most all is rebranded now. Mac, well, I have ONE of their tools.

 

[dnschmidt]

The issue is the drive end. If you use a chrome socket on an impact (that has any power and is being used under heavy loading) it will wallow out the drive end much faster than it will an impact socket. Don't know why I just know it's true. Now, the other way around seems irrelevant. The impact socket's only disadvantage is that they are normally fatter than a chrome socket and there are many places on automobiles where that matters.

 

[_brian_]

The issue is the drive end. If you use a chrome socket on an impact (that has any power and is being used under heavy loading) it will wallow out the drive end much faster than it will an impact socket. Don't know why I just know it's true. Now, the other way around seems irrelevant. The impact socket's only disadvantage is that they are normally fatter than a chrome socket and there are many places on automobiles where that matters.

Could I question you here? My impact sockets are well "wallowed" out. I cannot provide a fair comparison to chrome though, as my chrome usage on impact is minimal. It would seem to me that the difference there would be the wear on the anvil of the impact. The chrome being hard on the anvil where the impact, giving more, would be easier on it.

 

[Walkers]

Some impact socket mfgs won't warranty impact sockets used on hand tools.

Not sure where you are getting that from, I have never seen it. How would they even know? Sockets not dinged up from the impact=no warranty? It is easy to tell the other way, using hand tools on an impact, the chrome is flaking, the drive end is wallered out, cracks at the points, etc.

 

[dnschmidt]

Could I question you here? My impact sockets are well "wallowed" out. I cannot provide a fair comparison to chrome though, as my chrome usage on impact is minimal. It would seem to me that the difference there would be the wear on the anvil of the impact. The chrome being hard on the anvil where the impact, giving more, would be easier on it.

Where did the idea that impact sockets are less hard than chrome sockets come from? Many impact sockets are still made of Cr-V and Cr-Mo is just as hard as Cr-V. True the 0.001 inch thick chrome coating is harder than the steel but so what. If you're bringing a 1000 ft-lb full power impact to bear to get a Honda crank bolt out you're going to wallow out a socket regardless of chrome or impact.

 

[isb cornbinder]

I am going to step away from this discussion. This could go on forever, like a dog chasing its tail. My neighbours dog used to chase cars until it ran into a parked Elcamino. The now confused dog walked home. It was probably rethinking things.

 

[dnschmidt]

^^^^^ We finally get to the point. Who cares?

 

[jsaw]

I use impact sockets on hand ratchets. I do not own any chrome sockets other than a couple sets of 1/4" drive that I hardly ever use. I have impact sockets in 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2" drive I have had them for 30 years and used them on both hand drive tools, air tools.

 

[matthew]

I’m not sure how the bit socket example works, as the mix of CrV and S2 isn’t something I know how strength and toughness of those compare.

Generally brittleness and strength are correlated. So for a standard hex socket, a chrome socket will be strong, but also brittle, so it will not withstand hammering of impact loads.

On the other hand, a less brittle steel will be less strong. So impact sockets are typically thicker wall to make up for this. So the disadvantage to using an impact socket on a non-impact tool is the increased size and weight.

I don’t know that it matters. Use a socket that works… even here, very few will have every single socket made, and virtually every mechanic (shade tree or pro) will choose based on preference and convenience.

 

[matthew]

As far as the case posed at the start - bit sockets - there’s another variable. Namely stress concentrations. The socket design itself, and having more gradual transitions between features, may have a pretty significant impact on strength.

 

[CS454]

Only chrome I run are my 3/8" 12 points and small hex/torx, and 2 U-Joints for doing starters on trucks. Extensions are all impact as well. Haven't had any issues crop up in a decade using them with ratchets.

 

[_brian_]

I think my query has been misunderstood. I believe my question is valid, and a few others have also stated their interest in the answer. I am not looking for some conspiracy theory, just some insight into the proposed example.

 

[Schurkey]

I will NEVER use a chrome socket in an impact situation. They can and do shatter; and if they don't shatter, they'll distort (get "hammered-out") at the drive square. Very early in my career, I tried using a chrome universal joint with an impact wrench. It predictably shattered and my hand was lacerated.

Using an impact-rated tool on a hand-powered ratchet/breaker bar/speeder handle/etc. is no big deal. The impact tools are deliberately softer than the chrome tools; so I suppose they'd wear faster--but wear is really not much of a problem for most folks. The bigger concern is the thicker wall of an impact socket potentially not fitting in the tool-clearance space designed into the item being worked on.

Extension bars act like torsion bars. This is not a big deal when powered by hand ratchets/breaker bars/etc. All it means is that you might need some extra tool swing on the ratchet to make up for the flex in the extension. This changes when used with an impact wrench, because the impact wrench has a limited number of degrees of movement for each impact. With longer extensions, it's easy to use-up all the motion of the individual impacts by twisting and un-twisting the "torsion bar". Minimal power reaches the socket. A larger-diameter extension makes a BIG difference when used with an impact wrench. That's the entire operating principle of those stupid, hateful "Torque Sticks" that get used instead of a proper, accurate torque wrench when installing lug nuts. The lower-torque "torque stick" is thinner diameter than the higher-torque "torque stick", making it a weaker torsion bar when used with an impact gun.



There are accessories sold for use with impact wrenches that involve a mass held to the extension with a flexible (rubber?) bushing. IF (big IF) the natural frequency of the mass coincides with the frequency of the impacts, the mass adds to the force of the impact gun. (If the mass does not coincide with the frequency of the impacts, it'd reduce the force of the impact gun.) I've seen them advertised, but I don't know what they're called, so I can't find an example on Amazon. I figured they were more "gimmick" "As seen on TV" than useful, so I didn't pay a lot of attention...

[Edit] See post #87. No, I didn't remember the mass-loaded items very well.[/Edit]

 

[dukefx]

The answer to why you shouldn't use impact sockets for hand ratchets is simple. The molecules in the socket will shift over time and it'll lose accuracy. So basically it'll deform due to the properties of molybdenum.

The opposite case is quite similar. Yes, it may shatter, but what will really happen will depend on composition of the steel alloy and can't be generalized that easily. It may also deform and get stuck like when you use a non-impact rated bit in a 1/4 impact driver.

Use the right tool for the job!

 

[joel_400]

I can say that when using a long ratchet or breaker bar with a cheater I've broken many sockets over the years. When a chrome socket breaks it's usually a catastrophic failure...looks more like you put a hand grenade in it. Bits seem to explode too. All of the impact sockets I've broken maybe break out one or two sides or shear off a bit, usually relatively clean. Even with an impact they seem that way. Mostly sockets seem to just crack down the side for me. I would guess this has something to do with the metallurgy of the different type of sockets, and I'm sure branding has a lot to do with that as well. I will say I've always been taught not to hold on to a socket attached to an impact, especially a chrome socket due to the risk of severe injury if it fails. As far as not using an impact socket on a ratchet or breaker bar I could understand the statement as they are different and maybe an engineer, or a lawyer, at one time wanted to cover someone's ***! That would be the only logical reason I could think of for that statement.
Joel