This a American forum, not permitted to do crazy Canukistani things like that by the NEC.you were saying?
Initial 30x50 workshop electrical planning
- Thread starter quakerj
- Start date
does the NEC not allow it?This a American forum, not permitted to do crazy Canukistani things like that by the NEC.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Canada eh?you were saying?
sparky 1971
Well-known member
The main as well as the top row of breakers wouldn't pass here in the U.S. Handle down can't be the on position. The bottom row of breakers is fine. Turn the panel 180° and only use the bottom row and you'll be fine as long as it's rigged up so no breakers could be installed in the top row. In the picture, it appears that all of the breakers are turned off, unless panels are manufactured differently for Canada, but that would be a royal pain in the **** keeping track of what breaker could go on which row.you were saying?
ok now we're heading down the rabbit hole:
240.33 Vertical Position.
Aside from the installation instructions not allowing it, now NEC 240.33 does not allow enclosures for overcurrent devices to be mounted other than vertical.
www.electricallicenserenewal.com
The only conflict left is the second sentence that states “circuit breaker enclosures shall be permitted to be installed horizontally where the circuit breaker is installed in accordance with 240.81”. If understood correctly, and read along with the requirements in 240.81, technically, as long as the circuit breakers are marked with an “on” and “off” position (like most are), then the enclosure can still be mounted horizontally.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
All I know is that breaker have to be up in order to be on. Down and on is a no go. I'm not a code guru, nor will I ever be and I've never read 240.33, but will in the next five minutes. I've never seen a panel in the U.S. that could be mounted sideways and on be up with the exception of the old Zinsco's, but have never seen one of those mounted any way except vertical. I can't think of a single reason that would be beneficial in mounting sideways, speaking solely for South of your border.
EDIT: I read 240.33, yes it states they have to be mounted vertically unless they meet the provisions of 240.81 which states they have to be marked on and off, and up is on. So, I was kind of correct in my original statement. I just don't know or care if there is a listed method to block a whole row of breaker spaces to keep from using that side of the bus.
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240.33 says position dont matter so long as its labeled on/off is how im reading it....
"240.33 Vertical Position. Enclosures for overcurrent devices shall be mounted in a vertical position. Circuit breaker enclosures shall be permitted to be installed horizontally where the circuit breaker is installed in accordance with 240.81. Listed busway plug-in units shall be permitted to be mounted in orientations corresponding to the busway mounting position."
deeper we go
Panelboard Orientation
www.ecmag.com
sparky 1971
Well-known member
Read the second paragraph of 240.81. You posted faster than I could edit my other post.240.33 says position dont matter so long as its labeled on/off is how im reading it....
"240.33 Vertical Position. Enclosures for overcurrent devices shall be mounted in a vertical position. Circuit breaker enclosures shall be permitted to be installed horizontally where the circuit breaker is installed in accordance with 240.81. Listed busway plug-in units shall be permitted to be mounted in orientations corresponding to the busway mounting position."
deeper we go
Panelboard Orientation
240.81 Circuit breakers shall clearly indicate whether they are in the open "off" or closed "on" position.
Where circuit breakers are operated vertically rather than rotationally or horizontally, the "up" position of the handle shall be the "on" position.
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sparky 1971
Well-known member
Those are going to be the old Bulldog Pushmatic breakers. There is no up or down, only in and out. And there won't be a gotcha, the panel you posted wouldn't be allowed in the U.S.
Actually I much prefer Menards over Home Depot / Lowes, but I knew what to look for, thanks for that.
I bought the MHF from Lowes because it was the only place that said it was in stock on the internet. Low and behold, I was in a Menards in Louisville today and they had the same MHF cable for $2.98/ft versus the $4.20-something/ft I paid at Lowes.
The real kicker is that Menards sells remnant cables / leftovers off the spool for 20% off, and that same store had 75ft of 2-2-2-4 MHF cable, which is the exact length I needed. So would have been $2.40 or so... I left the store pretty sad, too late now.
Got some things tidied up today and installed a very rudimentary service outlet on a 20A double pole breaker just to have something for a short duration until I can run all the EMT. I'll end up taking that outlet off or redoing it when I'm done, I know that MC cable/bushings, non-GFCI wouldn't pass muster. Also got ground rods installed, 8' deep, 6-1/2' apart, and ran #6 wire to the panel. Should be all downhill from here.
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Just a for fun question for the experts while I'm thinking about it- I've always been familiar with the horizontal slot indicating a 20A 120V receptacle. My kitchen, bathrooms and attached garage in my home (circa 2007) are wired with 20A circuits. But all outlets are standard 15A variety. My mind started to wander and honestly I've never encountered a power tool/appliance/etc. that uses an actual 20A 120V plug with the sideways prong.
Is it just for show, or does the 20A outlet actually serve some real purpose? All I see is extra dollar signs when I buy receptacle and no real benefit, but I'll put them in anyways. Chump change in the grand scheme of things, but I'd really like to know what actually uses that plug.
Is it just for show, or does the 20A outlet actually serve some real purpose? All I see is extra dollar signs when I buy receptacle and no real benefit, but I'll put them in anyways. Chump change in the grand scheme of things, but I'd really like to know what actually uses that plug.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
Code says that 15 amp duplex receptacles can be used on 20 amp circuits. Single receptacles do need to be 20 amp, but it's not likely you'll use any of those.
I've seen two things that needed a 20 amp 120 volt receptacle. One was a Hotzy pressure washer. The other I didn't actually see, but the plans spec'd a 20 amp 120 for something that was going in a place that printed t-shirts.
You can use 20's if you want, it's your money, but it's highly unlikely that you'll ever need one. And they aren't any more heavy duty, the guts are the same as 15 as long as they are both the same grade.
Hate to revive an old thread, but I learned more in this thread about electrical that I have in a half dozen others.
I'm installing a 24000 btu mini-split in the rear of the 30x50 shop. Requires a 240V 20A dedicated circuit which will require another conduit run (existing is at capacity), no big deal.
If I understand code correctly, I need a disconnect near the outside unit location. What type of conduit do I need to exit the building (to the disconnect)? I think it's called liquid-tight conduit or something to that effect, but is it compatible with a normal metal junction box on the interior of the building? I also assume I'll need the same type of conduit to run from the disconnect to the outside unit. I'm unfamiliar with the conduit type and what sort of adapters/connectors I'll need to make this connection. The unit takes a 1/2" fitting. If anyone can provide some insight I'd sure appreciate it.
I'm installing a 24000 btu mini-split in the rear of the 30x50 shop. Requires a 240V 20A dedicated circuit which will require another conduit run (existing is at capacity), no big deal.
If I understand code correctly, I need a disconnect near the outside unit location. What type of conduit do I need to exit the building (to the disconnect)? I think it's called liquid-tight conduit or something to that effect, but is it compatible with a normal metal junction box on the interior of the building? I also assume I'll need the same type of conduit to run from the disconnect to the outside unit. I'm unfamiliar with the conduit type and what sort of adapters/connectors I'll need to make this connection. The unit takes a 1/2" fitting. If anyone can provide some insight I'd sure appreciate it.
Should be able to continue with PVC and an LB connector to make the hard 90 outside. I'm not 100% on this, but glue should keep it water tight. The connection from PVC conduit to disconnect might need to get one with a rubber seal. Note I'm not 100% on this and saying something semi incorrect to prompt the correct answer.
Nema 3 rating for outdoor weather protection. Most big box home stores will sell an outdoor AC disconnect as an item up to a certain amperage rating.
Nema 3 rating for outdoor weather protection. Most big box home stores will sell an outdoor AC disconnect as an item up to a certain amperage rating.
I think I figured it out. I actually needed a 30A circuit for this size mini-split; ran #10 wire through 1/2" EMT all the way to the disconnect box, even where it exits the building. I think that's code compliant, someone correct me if I'm wrong. From the disconnect box, I'll use liquid-tite flexible conduit w/ #10 wire to the A/C condensing unit. Any problems with this approach?
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
what is the make and model on the mini-split? or do you have a pic of the nameplate you can post here?