Insulating a 40x60x16 Pole buidling

[Dr_Goodwrench66]

So I have been reading here for hours and hours today...and honestly, my head hurts. I just not sure what way I should go.

The barn will be heated in the winter with a propane boiler with in floor heat. Interior walls will be finished with liner steal. I know for a fact, the cieling will be blown in cellulose. But my question is the walls. I have standard 6x6 construction 8' on centers. 2x4 perlins on outside with steel aready hung. Here are my options...

1. Hang 6" fiberglass bats from header to floor 1 by 1. Staple the bats to the header at the top.

2. Thinking heavily on blowing cellulose down the walls when the interior liner steel gets installed. I know it will settle over time, and I have no problem adding to it as time goes on. But what about moisture? Should there be a vapor barrier between the outside wall steel and the cellulose?

3. I have got quotes for spray foam 3" thick for the walls. Averaging around $7500. That is out of reach for me. It was then suggested to hang 1" or 1.5" pink foam sheets in the inside of the outer perlins that the outside steel is screwed too. This will give me an air gap that will improove R-value (so I'm told) and then spray 1" foam over the pink foam board.

4. I have a lead on the big bats that Morton uses, but have no idea on cost yet.

All I'm looking for is ideas or opinions as I have never done this and I'm learning as I go. Thanks.

**building is 40x64x16**

 

[gayler]

I don't have any pictures to show you, but mine is simular construction on ten foot centers and 2x6 perlins. Mine had one inch foam sheets installed before the metal went on. I framed between the 6x6 posts with 2x4 mostly reclaimed from an office that was torn down. I then put in R13 kraft faced bats and sheeted over with 7/16 OSB.

 

[jomobco]

Mine has r19 in the wall shelf girts.

 

[Sureshot]

Some buildings have the bats in horizontally

 

[Hogger]

Mine was 4 x 16 ft fiberglass bats came in rolls approx r 19 friction fit top to bottom.

 

[larry_g]

Metal building insulation

The above link is what I used.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[pmilin]

Metal building insulation

The above link is what I used.

lg
no neat sig line

I share the same concerns as the OP. How much did this system cost. Do you remember. Can use finish the inside, especially the ceiling, with the support straps up there.

 

[wedge40]

Here is my intention. I'm going to spray foam the walls to 1 1/2" and then frame out the walls and put FG in the walls. I want the spray foam to make sure everything is sealed up well. My building is 40'X56'x12' Pretty close to the op. I too have pex installed for radiant heat.

Wedge

 

[Dr_Goodwrench66]

I have been told about the horizontal bats...will look into this. I take it the blown cellulose down the wall is not the prefered method? Thanks for the help!

 

[stingry]

Personally I would frame between the 6x6's with 2x6's on 2' centers, fill with R19 kraft-faced batts and then install the inner steel liner. This would give you a vapor barrier, 2" of dead air space between the outer steel siding and the insulation and give a firm backing to the inner steel sheeting. 8' is too long of a span for the inner steel liner.


Cheers
Steve

 

[Highbeam]

I have 12' pole spacing and am about 25% through frmaing out the bays between the poles with regular stud walls. 2x6 and 16" OC, 30x60x14' tall. It's not hard to do, allows you to use regular insulation and hang sheetrock. My poles are actually full 6x8s so I have room for a hefty batt. Might end up with R30 in the walls.

Oh and before I put the outer metal on I wrapped the building with housewrap to limit wind and water infiltration. Inside of the unfaced insulation will be apoly VB and then sheetrock. Ceiling to be metal liner panels with blown in above.

 

[ringneck]

Put some 4 inch nails in the existing girts holding up the exterior siding, hang the wide rolls for R19 on those, and then put grits on the interior to put the liner on. Easy, minimal thermal breaks, the nails prevent sagging, and low cost (relatively speaking). Just make sure to putt the vapor barrier up before hanging the liner.

 

[Rick98Z]

I framed out stud walls in between my 6x6 posts but I put up tyvek on the inside between the posts stapled to the 2x4 exterior wall girls so when I insulate the fiberglass batts will not touch the exterior metal because it can wick up any moisture the metal builds up from condensation and then mold. I wish I had thought to install the tyvek up outside first before I put my tin on but live and learn...

 

[Highbeam]

I'm not convinced that this is a real problem. That is, metal touching fiberglass. Water only forms when the cold metal is exposed to warm and moist air but inside your wall and with a VB there is none.

Then mold has to have something to eat. Fiberglass is not a food source. I would be more worried about the lumber.

 

[jvitez]

If you have any worries about mold, use Roxul. It's what I used for my garage walls. It literally repels water as it's mineral wool. Excellent stuff!

http://www.roxul.com/home

 

[Highbeam]

Thing about roxul is it costs much more than the regular FG. Isn't fiberglass made of glass, like sand? Isn't sand a mineral? What is it about roxul that makes it better than fiberglass?

Ugh, I'll do some reading. People seem to like that stuff.

 

[newhollandpuller]

Contact Country Metals in Shilio, Ohio they have the 8' wide bats you are looking for and come in 50' rolls ask for Jason - great people to work with they might be able to help you find a supplier in your area. I wanna say the 50' roll are about $400-$500 each but they have a plastic like backing not paper R-19

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Metal building insulation

The above link is what I used.

lg
no neat sig line

I share the same concerns as the OP. How much did this system cost. Do you remember. Can use finish the inside, especially the ceiling, with the support straps up there.

The system shown, for the walls, has to be hung, then the steel sheets screwed on. You cannot do this after the fact.

The roof system shown is bats running the length of the roof purlins, either laying on sheet metal inside, below it, or on metal "baskets" that are suspended from the purlins. In either case, it usually is covered with a layer run across the purlins and then the sheet metal screwed on top of it. Again, not something you can do after the building is sheeted.

Charles

 

[jvitez]

Yes, Roxul is more expensive but it's a much better product. Here's a video all about it:

http://www.roxul.com/residential/residential+videos

I love the part where they dunk a piece into a basin of water and the water just runs off. That, plus the fire protection were the reasons I used it. AFAIR I've installed about 40 bags so far.

Here's some pics of my own garage:

 

[larry_g]

The system shown, for the walls, has to be hung, then the steel sheets screwed on. You cannot do this after the fact.

The roof system shown is bats running the length of the roof purlins, either laying on sheet metal inside, below it, or on metal "baskets" that are suspended from the purlins. In either case, it usually is covered with a layer run across the purlins and then the sheet metal screwed on top of it. Again, not something you can do after the building is sheeted.

Charles

You are correct. I reread the OP before I posted and THOUGHT I read where he was still in the ready to build stage. Either I misread or the OP was edited.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[ishiboo]

Yes, Roxul is more expensive but it's a much better product. Here's a video all about it:

http://www.roxul.com/residential/residential+videos

I love the part where they dunk a piece into a basin of water and the water just runs off. That, plus the fire protection were the reasons I used it. AFAIR I've installed about 40 bags so far.

Here's some pics of my own garage:

A manufacturer video is not an accurate method in selecting a product.

What exactly does that video prove? If your home or shop is on fire, Roxul does a better job of keeping the flames and heat inside the structure where it can best cook all your stuff? The ONLY thing that proves Roxul more useful than glass is an interior partition firewall.

Roxul may have better flammability/fire spread properties, but that video is just jibberish.

 

[ringneck]

I framed out stud walls in between my 6x6 posts but I put up tyvek on the inside between the posts stapled to the 2x4 exterior wall girls so when I insulate the fiberglass batts will not touch the exterior metal because it can wick up any moisture the metal builds up from condensation and then mold. I wish I had thought to install the tyvek up outside first before I put my tin on but live and learn...

I'm not convinced that this is a real problem. That is, metal touching fiberglass. Water only forms when the cold metal is exposed to warm and moist air but inside your wall and with a VB there is none.

Then mold has to have something to eat. Fiberglass is not a food source. I would be more worried about the lumber.

I agree with Highbeam... If you have a proper vapor barrier, then the moisture wont be condensing in the fiberglass or exterior wall, but rather on the barrier (if at all). The possibility of the stick framing picking up moisture from the concrete (unless a good moisture barrier was put there) seems more likley. Not to mention the added expense, work, and the addition of many more thermal breaks simply didnt add up for me.

I understand a lot of folks do it, and I bet it makes it a bit easier to hang things (especially if you do drywall). If you are going with a steel liner on the inside, I dont see any reason to stick frame between the poles.

I did stick frame the office (including between posts), as it will be drywall.

My posts are 9 ft on center, so I used 50 ft rolls of R19, 5 ft and 4 ft wide. We did virtually all of the building in a weekend (2 guys). I had no facing on the insulation at all and the materials cost $1200 for the insulation and approx $450 for lumber (actually a lot of it was just my trim boxes for the steel trim). Big box stores were crazy expensive, I just called a local insulation company and told them what I wanted, and it was much cheaper.

Contracted out blowing in the ceiling, it was $1700 (R30).

Building is 48x63x14.5, for reference.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

I am interested in your plan High. But vapor, wind and rain can't move through metal. I am also curious about your framing. They make 24" bats and you should need 2x6 on 16" centers?

 

[Rixter58]

I hesitate to post because people are quite passionate about their views of insulating buildings as I found our a few years ago when I was in your position. That said, here is what I did and am happy with so far. My building is 33x48x16. I put 1 1/2" pink foam between the purlins and have it tucked behind the poles. When I put the foam up, I made all the cuts a loose fit and then sealed the openings up with cans of spray foam. I then ran 1 2x6 up the center which made 2 24" batts fit perfectly, I ran horizontal purlins every 2' on the inside only to have more places to anchor. Put up a vapor barrier, then put up 7/16 OSB. Looking back, the only thing I would change is I probably wouldn't go with OSB again. Just too much work filling nail holes and joints to make it look decent. Insulation-wise, I am more than pleased. We had a high of -11 today and the shop was wonderfully warm with no cold spots.

 

[IHI]

I'm just a contractor so take it for what it's worth, we've done some pole barn finishing and I'll post pics below with the system we use (I use an insulation contractor when doing bay finishes, house additions and such)

1. The LESS wood framing you have the better off you will be, these are all thermal breaks and will transfer the cold from outside to the inside wall....this is why walls with less studs are better, less material to transfer. Ever driver by houses in the fall that you can see EVERY wall stud and EVERY roof truss/rafter....this is bad, that is just that much more space unable to actually insulate. I know the typical DIY does it this way since they are trying to save money by DIYing it, but it's not "ideal" by any means....there is room for improvement is what I should be saying.

2. Spray foam is a big outlay UPFRONT...guys see the bids and usually **** themselves, almost literally in every case I've bid it. The guys I could convince it will cost more initally but QUICKLY recover their cost...well, they got to see how well this stuff works. We did a 40x60x16 shop, 3" closed cell on all wall surfaces and bottom side of roof (all steel). This shop was attached to his 2 stall existing garage. During the winter time the ONLY source of heat to this big shop he uses for race car fabrication is the man door between the existing garage and this new shop. He keeps the 2 stall garage heated with a propane furnace at 70* and uses a box fan to blow that air through the man door into the big shop, and he has told me that often it gets too warm in the big shop and he has to shut that fan off and just let the warm air "drift" through the man door and more often than not, that is plenty to keep the shop at 70*....Big upfront cost, but when is the last time propane, natural gas, electricity EVER got cheaper...so as utility costs go up, the quicker the insulation pays for itself.

That said, another option we do, 1" open cell (because it's cheapers than closed cell) to make the envelope air tight) and then blow the rest of the walls full of fiberglass. So you still achieve a high R value, and air tight envelope, but at a lower inital cost. Not as good as all closed cell, but a close second.

3. This is the way we have dont quite a few and it also works great. My insulation contractor uses spray foam in a can (they have the big cans that feed through the gun) and they seal every joint that could let outside air in. They then staple a netting material to all the interior purlins and blow the walls full of fiberglass insulation. The pics I will show is a 18x36x18' bay. The guy used to have 2-20' propane radiant tubes to keep it comfortable during the winter working on his dumptrucks and heavy equipment. When we were done, just as case above, the only heat source to this bay now is the man door to the attached garage and it stays the same temp as the garage does just from air "floating in"

Well, ****, I dont have pics of the bay getting insulated but I have them of a house we redid for the guy as a rental. anyway, this first picture is how we "furred" out the interior purlins...he did'nt want to lose floor space with purlins mounted to face of the posts, so we had to block them all up and mount the 2x6's between the posts...but notice the wall has nothing in the middle so insulation can fill the ENTIRE wall cavity-BEST for max R value and less thermal transfer/breaks.

This is the netting with insulatin blow in, the stuff works great and is a close second place to spray foam...it's literally what all the new houses have used for yrs around here since it's affordable and flat works great.

Just remember, the LESS wall framing used, the better R factor you will achieve.

 

[wcs6523]

In my 36x48 pole building I used polyiso sheets normally used for flat roof insulation on commercial buildings. I layered it to overlap joints and spray foamed the gaps. So the walls are steel on the outside, then tyvek, then 5" of polyiso, then 6 mil plastic vapor barrier and then steel liner on the inside.
It was a pain in the *** to cut and fit all of the insulation panels but the price was right. It was $650 for enough material to do the whole 36x48x14 walls. I got it from a firestone plant near madison WI as seconds.

Last night was 0 here west of chicago and my 3000w infrred heater was able to maintain 52deg

 

[Rick98Z]

I opted for framing out between the posts 100% for drywall and hanging things...If I had to do it again I might opted for just stick building garage instead of pole barn but too late for that...I used mostly 2x4 framing that run even with the face of the poles and intermixed 2x6's to get toe nailed into the exterior wall girts for tightening things up.

My exterior wall metal is two different shades for the "wainscott" look. That alone creates more air gaps so I used spray can foam along seams inside before the tyvek went up to help with air infiltration. Was the tyvek needed??? Maybe not, but I only bought one roll and had half another one given to me so it wasn't alot out of pocket. Time will tell how the building will fare out through winter once insulated...I would agree with others though to check a local supplier for insulation prices over just going to the local HD or Lowes...

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

I hesitate to post because people are quite passionate about their views of insulating buildings as I found our a few years ago when I was in your position. That said, here is what I did and am happy with so far. My building is 33x48x16. I put 1 1/2" pink foam between the purlins and have it tucked behind the poles. When I put the foam up, I made all the cuts a loose fit and then sealed the openings up with cans of spray foam. I then ran 1 2x6 up the center which made 2 24" batts fit perfectly, I ran horizontal purlins every 2' on the inside only to have more places to anchor. Put up a vapor barrier, then put up 7/16 OSB. Looking back, the only thing I would change is I probably wouldn't go with OSB again. Just too much work filling nail holes and joints to make it look decent. Insulation-wise, I am more than pleased. We had a high of -11 today and the shop was wonderfully warm with no cold spots.

I like this, but wonder about sandwiching insulation between two effective vapor barriers.

 

[3pedal]

IHI - that blown in stuff is interesting. I'll have to see if I can learn more about it. I've been thinking an inch or two of closed cell foam and then something else to fill the rest of the rest of the cavity. This might be the ticket. Of course, I have no quotes for anything yet.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

I like the foam all over idea. If you keep in mind that insulation will ensure a tax-free return on investment with a built-in hedge against inflation and higher fuel prices it is the first thing to consider. The heat source is totally dependent on the fuel cost and the finished building load so look to window and door size and quality, followed by infiltration and the mechanical control of fresh air for occupants and exhaust air for equipment...makeup air.

 

[Rixter58]

I'm by no means saying my way is the right way. I asked here and you know how that goes..... Advice all over the map, lots of times diametrically opposed. Gosh, I remember asking about cellulose vs. fiberglass for the ceiling and the answers were exactly split down the middle. Who knows, maybe some day I'll regret how I went about it. But for right now, I type this from a 65 degree warm and comfortable shop with a -20 outside temp. For now, life is good.

 

[Highbeam]

I have some pictures so here you go. The knee braces and corner details made face of post mounted interior girts too complicated. Cabinet hanging and wall strength at this height made me want a stronger system.

Shop is 30x60 by 14' tall ceiling.

The "extra" framing at 16" oc vs. 24" didn't add up to much money at all and 14' 2x4s are hard to come by and even harder to find one that isn't all twisted up.

My posts are true 6x8 so the 5.5" thick wall stands about 4" from the extrior metal. Total wall cavity thickness is 8" when there's a purlin and 9.5 when measured, metal to inside of sheetrock.

The posts are 12' on center and the wall sections are heavy. Plan is to insulate with unfaced R30 which is about 8" thick. This shop is equipped with radiant floor heat but won't be continuously heated to a high temperature. For sure above freezing and if that is cheap enough then maybe up to 50 or so. There will be some sort of secondary heat system for the rapid heat up in addition to the base load heating being done by the floor heat.

 

[Highbeam]

Oh and the exterior metal is hardly air tight. The siding is sold in 3 foot width sections and the only seal between panels is the overlap. Some are a pretty tight seal but if there is even a slight vertical "twist" between panels the overlap easily opens up. I've been in windy barns and didn't want that.

 

[Dr_Goodwrench66]

I share the same concerns as the OP. How much did this system cost. Do you remember. Can use finish the inside, especially the ceiling, with the support straps up there.

I got a qoute of $2786 to do all the walls in my barn from these guys. That is R-19 and rolls are precut to fit inbetween the 6x6's.

 

[Dr_Goodwrench66]

I hesitate to post because people are quite passionate about their views of insulating buildings as I found our a few years ago when I was in your position. That said, here is what I did and am happy with so far. My building is 33x48x16. I put 1 1/2" pink foam between the purlins and have it tucked behind the poles. When I put the foam up, I made all the cuts a loose fit and then sealed the openings up with cans of spray foam. I then ran 1 2x6 up the center which made 2 24" batts fit perfectly, I ran horizontal purlins every 2' on the inside only to have more places to anchor. Put up a vapor barrier, then put up 7/16 OSB. Looking back, the only thing I would change is I probably wouldn't go with OSB again. Just too much work filling nail holes and joints to make it look decent. Insulation-wise, I am more than pleased. We had a high of -11 today and the shop was wonderfully warm with no cold spots.

A local builder also told me about this idea. Still pondering what I'm going to do.

 

[Dr_Goodwrench66]

Thank you so much for all the ideas! I still have alot of things to consider. I know spray foam is the best of all worlds but yes, cost is a huge factor in what I will decide on. I have several calls and emails out for qoutes regarding foam and the large bats.

 

[pmilin]

Thank you so much for all the ideas! I still have alot of things to consider. I know spray foam is the best of all worlds but yes, cost is a huge factor in what I will decide on. I have several calls and emails out for qoutes regarding foam and the large bats.

I'm with you on thinking the spray foam is the best option. Or 1 1/2" spray foam and the rest bats. We only get one chance to do this right so I think I am going to hold out for the foam/bats option. It will cost more so I will have to wait a little longer to do it.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

We typically use 2" of 2lb. foam in our residential remodels and and additions with glass or cellulose to fill. There is no better way to get eliminate infiltration and add to the structural integrity of the building at the same time.

You have to pay attention to air quality and ventilation if you foam, since you will have neither if you shut the door and windows.

 

[IHI]

I always told my customers, the only people that can afford to be cheap, are rich people.....because they can afford to do it twice.

Poor folks often wonder why they're poor, thought process accounts for most of it. Do the insulation right, once, and you actually SAVE money for the rest of the time you work out of it....half *** it to save on the front side, and you will forever being losing money when heating and cooling the place. Kinda like people wanting "the best deal" on windows....sure, you can buy cheap **** from a homecenter and save on the front side, but a window is nothing more than a literal hole in the wall.......ya spend the money the first time and do it right the first time, it forever rewards you with saving money. Cheap folks don't get this and even when you mention "isn't this the second time you've done this, or that?" And you add the numbers up for them from the first time they replaced a window for example, and then replace that same cheap window for a second time......add both costs together and guess what is is always equal to and more often less than doing it right, once, the first time.

 

[Dr_Goodwrench66]

I always told my customers, the only people that can afford to be cheap, are rich people.....because they can afford to do it twice.

Poor folks often wonder why they're poor, thought process accounts for most of it. Do the insulation right, once, and you actually SAVE money for the rest of the time you work out of it....half *** it to save on the front side, and you will forever being losing money when heating and cooling the place. Kinda like people wanting "the best deal" on windows....sure, you can buy cheap **** from a homecenter and save on the front side, but a window is nothing more than a literal hole in the wall.......ya spend the money the first time and do it right the first time, it forever rewards you with saving money. Cheap folks don't get this and even when you mention "isn't this the second time you've done this, or that?" And you add the numbers up for them from the first time they replaced a window for example, and then replace that same cheap window for a second time......add both costs together and guess what is is always equal to and more often less than doing it right, once, the first time.

I agree. I'm far from rich, but also not poor. I'm the struggling to survive middle class! I am far from a builder and even further from an insulation expert. I'm trying to teach myself something on the topic and only plan on doing it once. I'm leaning towards 1" spray foam and then hanging the big ole bats. Thank you so much for all your words of wisdom.