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Insulating a 40x60x16 Pole buidling

BadgerBoilerMN

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1" foam is difficult to apply and hard to maintain minimum depth, as it is hand blown.

Foam is not the only solution, but it is likely the most reliable. Most other construction techniques require considerable skill and due diligence. It is also harder to check or verify the finished product. With foam you can push a nail through and measure the depth.
 
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IHI

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I agree. I'm far from rich, but also not poor. I'm the struggling to survive middle class!:eyecrazy: I am far from a builder and even further from an insulation expert. I'm trying to teach myself something on the topic and only plan on doing it once. I'm leaning towards 1" spray foam and then hanging the big ole bats. Thank you so much for all your words of wisdom.


I know exactly where your coming from, we dealt with so many customers with all budget ranges and it was my job to find a solution to give them the best they could afford, many times this often included eliminating something that could be done at a later date. I would talk them into say, using spray foam and eliminating us rocking and finishing the interior of the shop....because that can be done later as time and funds allowed.

The biggest thing to remember, for anybody, is try to do the stuff that is hard and expensive to get to or will save you money long term, and skimp on the "pretty stuff" you can always do at anytime. I would rather stare at ugly foam walls for a couple years and know it is tight and wont cost hardly a thing to heat and cool, vs skimping on the insulation aspect so I can buy a hoist at that same time of the build.

Your obviously an intelligent consumer, researchiing and arming yourself with everything out there before pulling the trigger, I applaud you and wish all customers would do the same. In 20+yrs of remodeling, I can count on one hand the number of people that knew anything, or even what they wanted...but these folks were a dream to work for since I did'nt have to do all sorts of homework to present them options. Bath/Kitchen remodels, I'd get a phone call to give a bid, meet the couple and in almost every case they'd answer my questions with, "I dunno, your the contractor, just do whatever everybody is doing nowadays", or "well I dont want the cheapest, but I dont want the most expensive, just spec everythiing with middle of the road products"......this ALWAYS led to hours putting proposals together since I would overkill info and lay everything out product wise, price point wise, etc...and offer advice and then let them start picking and chosing from what I presented to come up with a project plan. This is why I stopped doing "free estimates", it helped eliminate the tire kickers from the serious buyers, and I also tired of spending hours on something and not getting the job because of price point. I'm not a saleperson, so I could'nt and would'nt try to kiss somebodies azz to make a sale; just presented honest up front costs and if they wanted it, great, and if they did'nt, I was'nt working their project at a loss just to get the bid.
 
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Dr_Goodwrench66

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May 24, 2011
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Northern Michigan
Well, I talked a guy that does the spray foam for a living that lives a few hours from me. Very informational and has the best price by far. Something he did tell me is the open cell has a better sound deadening factor than closed cell. He suggested I spray 5'' of open cell in the walls. Open cell has an R value of 4.2/inch. This would be the best of both worlds with great R value and outstanding sound deadening as well as an air tight building. So now I'm leaning this way!

The cost of 1'' closed cell spray foam and then adding the fiberglass batts is far more expensive than just foaming the whole place with open cell foam.
 

IHI

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Well, I talked a guy that does the spray foam for a living that lives a few hours from me. Very informational and has the best price by far. Something he did tell me is the open cell has a better sound deadening factor than closed cell. He suggested I spray 5'' of open cell in the walls. Open cell has an R value of 4.2/inch. This would be the best of both worlds with great R value and outstanding sound deadening as well as an air tight building. So now I'm leaning this way!

The cost of 1'' closed cell spray foam and then adding the fiberglass batts is far more expensive than just foaming the whole place with open cell foam.

"Typically" and I'm sure he went over it with you, the close cell is more expensive since it is almost, "almost" twice the r value......it is invaluable when trying to pack max r factor into skinny framing....with close cell you can stick frame a home with 2x4 and still get code compliant r19 whereas normally it takes a 2x6 and thick batt to achieve an r19...and its still not air tight.

I don't keep up with the latest in spray foam but it sounds as if they're making strides to a better product. A few yrs ago close cell was rated at r7/inch and open cell was r3/inch...so its good to know your getting a better bang for your buck.

I will tell you if you've never been in a building that's been sprayed....the inital "feeling" is strange...it is absolutely dead sound, kinda hard to describe but nothing echos, it is absolutely dead space and it nothing like what your accustomed to. I remember the first home a fellow contractor was building and did the whole home with spray foam, he was showing me around and it felt strange lol....but its a good strange since that dead sound is also the hush of money you'll be saving the rest of your life heating and cooling the structure:)
 

78C-10

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This contractor invited me over to see his own personal foamed 40x80 building, so I will take him up on that. Thanks for all the help!

Dr. Goodwrench, do you have any updates on your choice of insulation yet? I wasn't going to go with foam due to cost. I was going to install 2x6 bookshelf girts and then 23" wide FG batts. Today we had high winds and alot of rain. I went out to the shop to hang some more "bookshelves" but upon closer inspection I saw water coming in quite a few spots, very upset. I don't want to hang fiberglass where water is coming in. So I started thinkning about the spray foam. I might start calling for quotes this week. Thank you
 

flippa

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Feb 25, 2010
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Location
Boston, MA
I have been lurking here for quite some time but this is my first post. I had to add my thoughts on the subject because of my own experience.

I renovated a cape and one car garage that I bought six years ago. The house was built in 1941, in good shape structurally but neded all new services and a new kitchen which we replaced prior to moving in. The second floor was partially finished and had absolutely no insulation at all. The stand alone garage was similar vintage with 2x4 walls and was completely unfinished.

When we saved up to renovate the second floor, I gutted it so it was wide open. I looked into how we should insulate and got quotes from several contractors for foam, fiberglass and a combination of both. We decided on going with the 2# foam for all the reasons stated above. I also was concerned that the garage could have rodents trying to move into it from the surrounding woods, and several of the contractors stated that the foam would fill absolutely every gap and the "critters" wouldn't be living in this insulation like they so often do with fiberglass batts.

I had 3" installed in the walls and 6" in the roof of both the house and garage. I intended to use the garage for my home office so I wanted it to be well insulated. Is it ever!

Going with the foam was by far the best decision I made in renovating both spaces. Like IHI stated, standing in the spaces after being insulated is strange; it is dead silent. We have a major roadway just downhill from us, and it cannot be heard from inside the garage or second floor. I was also amazed at how much fuel consumption went down; I have since been averaging approximately a 40 to 45 percent reduction in the amount of oil we used in the house from the first two years.

I have had my office in the garage for the past three years. It is 14ft x 24ft with 8ft walls and has a cathedral ceiling that is almost 14ft to the peak. It has a passage door, an eight foot wide insulated garage door and 4 good sized windows. I heat it with a small electric oil-filled radiator and keep the ceiling fan on to circulate the heat. I live in Massachusetts, and on low setting it maintains the garage at almost 60 degrees at this time of year. The garage is amazingly tight. I do supplement the heat with a small propane wall hung heater to get it up to a comfortable temp when I am working out there. I should install a more perminant heating system, but it has been fine with what I have been using, so I haven't bothered investing the time or money into one.

If you can afford it, I would highly recommend the 2# foam. You will probably recoup the cost in energy savings within a few years.
 
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IHI

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If you can afford it, I would highly recommend the 2# foam. You will probably recoup the cost in energy savings within a few years.

THE hardest sell I've found over the years is convincing the common working man on a blue collar budget is the term "long term" and "value". It got harder and harder every year as paychecks shrunk and cost of living increased. There are a number of things in construction that are worth their extra cost and value, such as expensive foam insulation, expensive windows/doors, roofing options, fixtures, etc....trying to explain that upfront cost is big, but overtime will actual save money is a tough sell.

I'm not insinuating the OP is the typical hardhead LOL, but as a former professional, and I'm sure many other's in the trades will read this and laugh too since they can relate as well...getting somebody to buy the expense upfront when they're looking at numbers that are half that is tough. They simply have'nt seen first hand how the savings work...they just see "the now" and think "we'll deal with it later". It was always easy for me to spend other's money, because, well, it was'nt mine;) BUT I, and I hope many of the true pro's had options to present before laying out the game plan on the project so the homeowner can make the most informed descion themselves with the contractors experience to help guide them into a list of importance.

Example, homie wants to have a hoist installed in the new garage we're building, and to make sure he has that budget, wants rudy poo fiberglass batt siding in a structure he plans on keeping above freezing year around in a cold region, like here in IA where we get 5 months of hot and 7 months of cool/cold. It was my job to show him, hey, let's hold off on the hoist, it can always be added in later with no harm to anything else, no going backwards to install it...and let's upgrade the insulation option instead since doiing it the best you can the first time will forever put money in your pocket through the life of the building.
 
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BadgerBoilerMN

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There is no question about 2# foam. It ends up about R-6 per inch so in renovation there really are few alternatives. This does not address the wall assembly that will end up much lower due to thermal bridging, but can make for a nearly air-tight assembly on what amounts to renovation when trying to insulation a steel building or pole barn.

2 inches of high density (2#) foam, will add structural strength, make for an effective vapor barrier (do not apply a second on the inside wall) and give you a good seal against air movement (the most draining of all heat loads) in the interior fiberglass panels (typical).

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/ite...ls-dry&utm_campaign=fine-homebuilding-eletter
 
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ShiftedSolutions

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Jul 3, 2012
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Central Michigan
This contractor invited me over to see his own personal foamed 40x80 building, so I will take him up on that. Thanks for all the help!

Goodwrench, where are you located? I am in central Michigan and have been in touch with a spray foam company that I am pretty sure I am gonna go with. He has given me prices, I would be curious to see who you are going through and the price difference. The guy I talked to recommended closed cell over open, and was not much more than an open cell quote I got from someone else.
 
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Dr_Goodwrench66

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May 24, 2011
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Northern Michigan
Dr. Goodwrench, do you have any updates on your choice of insulation yet? I wasn't going to go with foam due to cost. I was going to install 2x6 bookshelf girts and then 23" wide FG batts. Today we had high winds and alot of rain. I went out to the shop to hang some more "bookshelves" but upon closer inspection I saw water coming in quite a few spots, very upset. I don't want to hang fiberglass where water is coming in. So I started thinkning about the spray foam. I might start calling for quotes this week. Thank you

It looks like I will be going with the open cell spray foam for its sound deadening characteristics. I have yet to visit a building that is currently foamed though.
 
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Dr_Goodwrench66

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May 24, 2011
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45
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Northern Michigan
Goodwrench, where are you located? I am in central Michigan and have been in touch with a spray foam company that I am pretty sure I am gonna go with. He has given me prices, I would be curious to see who you are going through and the price difference. The guy I talked to recommended closed cell over open, and was not much more than an open cell quote I got from someone else.

I'm in Gaylord. I'm planning on installing open cell only because the last guy I talked to said it has better sound deadening characteristics. I've talked to several people and gotten several different answers, prices and opinions. But this last gentleman was by far the most informative. I don't have his name or company in front of me at the moment...
 

drps10

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Feb 8, 2013
Messages
10
my dad has a 60 by 40 pole barn with 16 foot ceilings.I don't know the spacing between the post but ours is metal on the outside too. First layer was pink styrofoam board the entire building, then we did this thick styrofoam board with aluminum foil looking on the back which had a overlap so you could overlap each board and onto the post. Stays warm moderately warm in the winter with heat set at 55 and very cool in the summer

I can post of pictures later when I get to my computer
 

backintheday

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Feb 7, 2012
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Western Wyoming
I am in the process of building my own house, I had 1" closed cell sprayed on the walls then used R13 batts over that. Here in NW Wyoming we have some extreme cold and winds, I am very glad I did the foam and wish I could have afforded to spray the full 5.5 inchs. The cost was .95 per sq ft. My house stays warm and when the wind blows it's nowhere near as loud as a typical home. My buddy did the same thing in his shop ( 40x80x16 ) and I'll do the same in mine.

You won't be disappointed.
 
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