adamant118
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Insulating the inside of a pole barn
- Thread starter adamant118
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bobbyjean
Well-known member
you could spray foam but that costs,i checked into the kits sold on the web to do it myself
but i decided on rigid foam board from lowes....i used 1 inch as a cut/cobble set up,then used another course over that.
will you be finishing wall surface with anything...plywood...sheetrock?
but i decided on rigid foam board from lowes....i used 1 inch as a cut/cobble set up,then used another course over that.
will you be finishing wall surface with anything...plywood...sheetrock?
OP
adamant118
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Bobby I'm not sure yet I am still in the thinking mode. foam insulation that you used didn't insulate well? How are you heating your building? And thank you for your reply
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d300
Well-known member
Insulation boards/batts are only part of the insulation challenge. The reason that spray foam works so well is that it seals everything it touches...every nook and cranny is filled and sealed...NO air leakage (which is your enemy and tough to beat by 'normal' methods).
Air movement also degrades the R value of whatever you use since batts/loose fill are relying on trapped air for the R number.
Rigid sheets that are foamed at the edges are a option.
Air movement also degrades the R value of whatever you use since batts/loose fill are relying on trapped air for the R number.
Rigid sheets that are foamed at the edges are a option.
wingrider02
Well-known member
Interesting that you have asked this question, as I was just going to start searching for what folks have done. I have received one quote so far for spray foam, and it is certainly a healthy quote!
Mancino
Well-known member
I did a bunch of research on this as well...I wanted to spray foam, but worried about spraying right on the metal in case I ever wanted to remove panels ( I also heard it may prematurely rust the panels, but can't confirm that). Either way, I opted out. Fiberglass Batts was an option, but at the cost I was quoted for 8' wide batts, it made more sense to look at other options. And straight spray foam was way out of my budget.
The best solution I read about was to put foam(EPS, XPS, or polyiso) in between or on top of the wall girts. Then you can spray foam at a much cheaper cost and still be able to remove the panels if anything ever happens.
Depending on your location, polyiso may be the best option...high R value and second hand material can be found easily. I've read it isn't quite as good in R value as the temperature drops though, unlike XPS or EPS. In my case, I found factory seconds of EPS foam in concert forms. I cut them to fit between the posts and next will be to spray foam about 2" over top of that to bind everything together. I can't speak for how well it works, because it's obviously not finished yet, but do a quick search. Others have done this exact setup with great success.
The best solution I read about was to put foam(EPS, XPS, or polyiso) in between or on top of the wall girts. Then you can spray foam at a much cheaper cost and still be able to remove the panels if anything ever happens.
Depending on your location, polyiso may be the best option...high R value and second hand material can be found easily. I've read it isn't quite as good in R value as the temperature drops though, unlike XPS or EPS. In my case, I found factory seconds of EPS foam in concert forms. I cut them to fit between the posts and next will be to spray foam about 2" over top of that to bind everything together. I can't speak for how well it works, because it's obviously not finished yet, but do a quick search. Others have done this exact setup with great success.
wdrumheller
Well-known member
I bought 12'x4'x2" thick styrofoam insulating sheets and cut them to fit between the uprights, and screwed them into the girts with long screws.
It took a LONG time but it was worth it 100%. My ceiling was already insulated with blown fiberglass over a sheet metal ceiling.
Before insulating the walls, I could run two unit heaters Big Maxx type on full blast and on a 30 degree day I couldn't get the inside temperature above 55 no matter what I tried. Even heating for hours on end would not work.
After insulating, I can get the inside up to 70 degrees in about 20 minutes. The space I'm heating is 40x75x12'.
The only drawback is that I think that the panels are a potential fire hazard, not that they're more flamable than other things per se, but the smoke from them is dangerous and thick.
I'm trying to come up with a solution that would make them less exposed to the interior of the barn. It's an agricultural building, so I still think I'm meeting my local fire codes.
It took a LONG time but it was worth it 100%. My ceiling was already insulated with blown fiberglass over a sheet metal ceiling.
Before insulating the walls, I could run two unit heaters Big Maxx type on full blast and on a 30 degree day I couldn't get the inside temperature above 55 no matter what I tried. Even heating for hours on end would not work.
After insulating, I can get the inside up to 70 degrees in about 20 minutes. The space I'm heating is 40x75x12'.
The only drawback is that I think that the panels are a potential fire hazard, not that they're more flamable than other things per se, but the smoke from them is dangerous and thick.
I'm trying to come up with a solution that would make them less exposed to the interior of the barn. It's an agricultural building, so I still think I'm meeting my local fire codes.
PWC Repair
Well-known member
I weighed out my options as far as best r value for my money and went with second hand 3" closed cell sheets from craigslist. Check it out in my sig.
I would look around and see how much used foam is. My estimate To do 1.5" of spray foam was 4200.
I wish I could have but it is much better air sealed than most, and I will have R24 in the walls. I think I found a happy medium
I wish I could have but it is much better air sealed than most, and I will have R24 in the walls. I think I found a happy medium
OP
adamant118
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Wingrider. Please keep me posted on your updates.. explain your situation?
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bobbyjean
Well-known member
it should be r-10,i really think the work airsealing is what does the trick...as an example i took the carriers beams located on the eve side and built a "cap" across them...then air sealed ...finally i filled in the gap between the two with non-faced fiberglass...yes i could have just thrown fiberglass over the carrier beam top and had a beer.. i built a "soffit" with the foam board on the gable end and air sealed there as well...
i have a hanging unit heater for lp..works great,i have some pictures i can post
bobbyjean
Well-known member
blazinzuk-that's the same job i did with the foam boards....did you have any trouble's getting it behind posts and into corners? i had to persuade it some with a block of wood and a hammer
....blazinzuk-that's the same job i did with the foam boards....did you have any trouble's getting it behind posts and into corners? i had to persuade it some with a block of wood and a hammer
Couple of places took some love taps but for the most part it was very easy.
Used a table saw to cut mine. Took a bit to get the hang of it.
wingrider02
Well-known member
My quote was for 3” on the walls, and 4” on the ceiling. I do not plan to put in a false ceiling, so the tin would be sprayed. That quote came back at $14,400. If I wanted to go with 3” all the way around, then I could deduct $2100.
aczr2k
Well-known member
From what I've always been told anything over 2" of sprayed closed cell foam was not worth the money. Our shop has about 2-2-1/2".
wingrider02
Well-known member
Interesting! Perhaps I should have them rebid the job using that as a possibility.
I had looked into how much it might cost if I went with a ridged foam. On the side walls, if I took 1.5” foam (R5.7) and put in between the wall girts, then layed 2” (R7.7) over the whole wall, that gives me 3.5” of foam. I would assume that I would have to use some type of sealing foam on this, and then add a vapor barrier.
Likewise, I would do something similar on the ceiling. Take 2” foam (R7.7), cut them to fit between the purlins, then take 1.5” foam (R5.7) and put on top of that to get to the bottom of the purlin, then do a 1” (R6) all the way up the ceiling. That would give me 4.5” of foam. Again, I would suppose I need to seal it somehow, and put a vapor barrier on it.
If I was to do it this way, I would spend $2887 on the walls, and $2944 the ceiling. This is all new foam from Home Depot. I am guessing I could find used foam a bit cheaper.
Some folks have suggested that this way isn’t feasible, but it does seem as though a few of you have done it this way with good results.
Can I assume that if I stack the ridged foam, that I could add up the R values, or is there a better way to figure that out?
I am curious about those that put ridged foam on first. Is 1” of foam cheaper than 1” of spray foam?
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It's not that thicker spray foam isn't good. It's just that it's not cost effective since the outer 2 inches or so does most of the sealing and insulating. Going thicker than that just means you end up paying a bunch for foam that really doesn't have to insulate much.
Rigid panels are very likely to be cheaper than spray foam at the same thickness. Spray foam is usually priced per board ft (1 sq ft, 1 inch thick). So a 4ft X 8 ft rigid Foam panel 1 inch thick is equivalent to 32 board feet.
Closed cell spray foam is polyiso, so it should be compared to polyiso sheets.
Menards currently shows a 4'x8'x1" foil faced polyiso sheet for $18.65 after rebate, or about $0.58/ board ft. It's r6.
$1/ bd-ft would be cheap for closed cell spray foam in my experience, and it can easily be in the $1.50/bd-ft range. So the rigid foam is likely to be nearly half the cost of the spray foam, and perhaps closer to 1/3. The spray foam will stop all drafts and air movement, but you can probably get more r value for your money with rigid foam. Let your budget and priorities decide.
Personally, I went the route of 1.5 inch rigid polyiso foam between the girts to block most of the airflow and dampen some of the noise. Bought them for $15/sheet on Craigslist, which was nearly $10/sheet cheaper than anywhere else. The r value has probably settled to about r8 or r9 by now. I'll frame out inside of the walls and use r19 batts for the rest for a total near r28 in the walls, and it might feel better than that since the foam should reduce air movement through the fiberglass.
It might also be worth putting a moisture barrier like Tyvek up befor you do any insulation.
JeremiahTRD
Well-known member
Spray Foam may be more expensive but you get what you pay for.
Permanent Bond that will never fail.
Depending upon climate zone 1 - 1 1/2 Inches Closed Cell would probably be all you need. Keeps the cost down.
Ridgid Foam Boards glues adhesives etc... will eventually fail.
There not as strong I.E. dense so they are damaged easier.
Permanent Bond that will never fail.
Depending upon climate zone 1 - 1 1/2 Inches Closed Cell would probably be all you need. Keeps the cost down.
Ridgid Foam Boards glues adhesives etc... will eventually fail.
There not as strong I.E. dense so they are damaged easier.
billfires
Member
Make sure you are not voiding your warranty on your panels. Some of the metal building manufacturers state that spray foam will void the warranty on the panels. Bill C
Dragfluid
ALLIANCE MEMBER
If you want an economical, cost effective insulation job, use cellulose. There's a manufacturer nearby in Loretto. They can ship it to you. See my build thread for what I did. If you would like, I invite you to stop by and see mine. I'm in Dayton.
wingrider02
Well-known member
Interesting! I seem to recall reading about the dense cellulose being sprayed on the walls. I didn’t recall if it had to be covered once it was “blown in”. I am guessing that it may not be optimal for the roof. I don’t plan on putting in a false ceiling in this one.
tom-ky
Well-known member
Did you cut the foam to just fit tight? Any other means of attaching it? Just getting ideas to do mine.
Dragfluid
ALLIANCE MEMBER
This isn't sprayed on the walls, but blown in behind netting. Then the wall covering goes up, either drywall, OSB, or steel panels.
Why no ceiling? That's the only way that you're going to get optimal R value and keep your building warm in the winter, and cool in the summer. Don't forget, this is Minnesota. We are blessed with up to a 125 degree temperature spread.
Pretty much. I also slid the panels behind the poles for increased support and to block air flow there. My poles are 8ft on center, and the panels are 8ft long, so it worked out well. There are a couple of spots where the panels have bowed out a bit between the posts. In the coming months I'll frame out walls which will take care of that and let me insulate with batts.
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wingrider02
Well-known member
This isn't sprayed on the walls, but blown in behind netting. Then the wall covering goes up, either drywall, OSB, or steel panels.
Why no ceiling? That's the only way that you're going to get optimal R value and keep your building warm in the winter, and cool in the summer. Don't forget, this is Minnesota. We are blessed with up to a 125 degree temperature spread.
I have been giving some thought to a ceiling...but I still am not certain about putting one in. My trusses are 8’ on center...don’t know of to many products that will span that. I realize I would have to add something in to span it...just money we don’t have in the near future.
Krzewinskibe
Well-known member
Also depends on what the Bottom Chord Dead Load (BCDL) rating on the trusses are. Unless its >=5psf I wouldn't hang a ceiling.
wingrider02
Well-known member
I agree... thought about that last night after writing my post.
Dragfluid
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Call whoever put it up and find out what the loading is.
As far as the 8' span, yes you need to put up some 2x4 joists. Again, see my build thread for details. The 2x4 joists are a hell of a lot cheaper than that foam you were thinking about.
