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internet to shop

powpow

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Howdy

I am in the process of finishing my basement, and my shop has the footings in and waiting to pour the floor next summer.

I have DSL thru the phone line

shop is about 100 ft from my house where I stubbed out some CAT 5

I have a westell model 7500 modem in the house (thru frontier)

What is the best way to do this, run an ethernet connection from the modem to a splitter in the shop, or can I run a hard line off the in wall connection to another modem?????

I am by no means a tech guy, I can usually make it work but wanted to get some advice

BTW, my home office will be in my shop ( i work from home) and I have a linksys VOIP phone

Thanks for the help
 
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Gary S

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^ correct.

You can't run more than one modem on a DSL line sumultaneously. DSL is a dedicated line to a single modem.
Just run a Cat 5 off your ethernet switch to the garage and you are ready to go. That is what I did in my garage. I've never used the garage computer however. It just takes up space out there.
 

gatchel

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As said above...A second modem will not work on a DSL connection. You would need to come out of the modem with an ethernet cable to the garage. Use one of the 4 ports on the back. You could run one cable and use a switch of hub to have more ports in the garage if you need more than one connection. I would also recommend some sort of surge protection on the ethernet cable as it enters the house and the garage.
 
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powpow

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Thanks guys

My shop should be done in about 2 years, and that is where my office for my day job will be since I work from home, cant wait to have my office out there.

Thanks for the help!!!
 

Highbeam

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So all my house phone lines are cat5e. Each home run to one of those media center panels and each pair landed on the panel. Of course, I only use one pair for phone service.

I have DSL service that comes in through this cat5 line to my modem and then I plug my computer into one of the outlets on the modem which I guess is called an ethernet port.

So I have to run another cat5 line to the new shop for phone service and an alarm. Is there a way to pump ethernet back into the phone line at the modem end so that I can pick it up in the shop? One of the unused pairs? Not wanting to run another dedicated line out to the shop.

Metal sided and comp roofed pole barn BTW so not sure that my wireless would make it out there.
 

info2x

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So all my house phone lines are cat5e. Each home run to one of those media center panels and each pair landed on the panel. Of course, I only use one pair for phone service.

I have DSL service that comes in through this cat5 line to my modem and then I plug my computer into one of the outlets on the modem which I guess is called an ethernet port.

So I have to run another cat5 line to the new shop for phone service and an alarm. Is there a way to pump ethernet back into the phone line at the modem end so that I can pick it up in the shop? One of the unused pairs? Not wanting to run another dedicated line out to the shop.

Metal sided and comp roofed pole barn BTW so not sure that my wireless would make it out there.

You might be able to create a 10baseT (10Mbps) connection since that only uses 2 twisted pairs. The wiring would probably be non-standard so you would have to make custom cables so the devices got the right info on the right pins.

Depending on what you'll be doing with the computer it might not be work trying to make it work for only 10Mbps when a new Cat6 cable would be good for 1Gbps
 

jeffmoss26

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Yes it can be done, but it's not recommended. I view it as a temporary measure at best. Doing it this way is not to the proper specifications.
Anything over 10/100 mbps requires all four pairs.

Jeff
 

Highbeam

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Silly me, I always thought that the computer only needed a single pair just like the phone line. I have wondered why I was running so many extra pairs of wire all over the place.
 

Falcon67

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Silly me, I always thought that the computer only needed a single pair just like the phone line. I have wondered why I was running so many extra pairs of wire all over the place.

Yep - pull two Cat5s, do it right.


To the OP - your DSL modem should have at least one Ethernet port. If more, then fine - most don't I think. Jump from that to a 4 port switch (no hubs please - can you even buy those anymore), then from the switch to the shop. If the shop is any size, I'd put a wireless node on the end of the cat run and not run any more cable.

EDIT - according to what I see when I look up your modem, it should have one DSL port and 4 ethernet ports. And, it does wireless. And, it gets terrible reviews. If the manual I found is right, it's an ancient (by network standards) piece. Good luck, should work reasonably. If this is for a work at home office, I'd upgrade to a better model DSL modem. The 7500 is bottom of the barrel.
 
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gt40mkii

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General rules of thumb fopr home networking:

  • Cable is always better than wireless. Its faster and more secure. If there's any way to run a cable somewhere, do it.
  • Install the best cable available, regardless of the speed you need. 10/100/1000 can run over Cat5e (and even Cat5 for short Gigabit runs.) but Cat6 will support longer runs of Gigabit, and will more likely support even faster speeds when they become available.)
  • Install plenum-rated cable whenever possible. Plenum cable is designed NOT to five off toxic smoke when burned.
  • Choose your network layout carefully. If you're going to be shipping large amounts of data between two computers, try to have them on the same switch, or at least with as few switches in between them as possible. For instance, I have a Home Theater PC for watching movies that I have on a network file server. I keep those two computers in the same gigabit switch, so that when I watch movies, I'm not clogging up the rest of my network.
  • If you must use wireless, use encryption! Otherwise you're leaving your network wide open for attack from anyone with a laptop who wants to park near your house and download kiddie ****. Wireless is the single biggest security risk to your network and your data. If you can avoid using it, do so.
  • If you encrypt your wireless connection, do not use WEP! WEP can be broken in a matter of minutes using the right software. Use WPA (good) or WPA2 (much, much better,) instead. And change your password regularly.
  • If you have house guests and you want to give them access to the Internet, get a SECOND wireless router and set it up with a separate subnet and restrict access to your home LAN's subnet (this is tricky to do, consult a networking expert for this.)
 

Gary S

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Yes it can be done, but it's not recommended. I view it as a temporary measure at best. Doing it this way is not to the proper specifications.
Anything over 10/100 mbps requires all four pairs.

Jeff


Ethernet uses only 2 pairs of the Cat 5, Cat 6 or whatever. The other two pairs are unused, but if you use them to feed any signal other than a DC signal, you will get interference from the other signal into the 2 ethernet pairs.

http://www.utm.edu/staff/leeb/568/568.htm
Note that only pairs 2 and 3 are used.
 

gt40mkii

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Ethernet uses only 2 pairs of the Cat 5, Cat 6 or whatever. The other two pairs are unused, but if you use them to feed any signal other than a DC signal, you will get interference from the other signal into the 2 ethernet pairs.

http://www.utm.edu/staff/leeb/568/568.htm
Note that only pairs 2 and 3 are used.

This only applies to 10BaseT and 100BaseT (10 megabit and 100 megabit, respectively,) networks. Gigabit (or 1000BaseT or 1000 megabit,) uses all 8 wires in the cable.

Is gigabit overkill for a home network? 10 years ago I would have said yes, but with so much media potentially being pumped over networks these days, I'm recommending Gigabit even for home networks, where feasible.
 

Gary S

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Is gigabit overkill for a home network? 10 years ago I would have said yes, but with so much media potentially being pumped over networks these days, I'm recommending Gigabit even for home networks, where feasible.

It depends on how you use it. 15 years ago I wired my first house for ethernet. I ran Cat 5e, but my hubs and NICs were all 10mb. It was overkill.
Then, 8 years ago, I bought a different house. Again I wired it with Cat 5e, but all my NICs and ethernet switches were 100mb. It is even more overkill.
Right now, I have a network of 10 computers running in my house and garage including my servers, and for me, 10mb would still be more than I could use.
For people who want to feed video through their network, I recommend going as much as you can afford. If you are using your ethernet as a computer network, 100mb is perfectly adequate and will be for a long time yet.
 

Falcon67

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I ran one (1) wire when we moved here - a single Cat5 from the demarc on the house to where I would mount the DSL modem in a closet. A small jumper from that to the E3000 wireless router and that's it. 5ghz 802.11N has more throughput than I can buy from WindStream on the DSL side, even with encryption overhead. Then again, we don't shove video around the house either.

And yea - if you buy something, don't buy anything less than 10/100/1Gig stuff. I'm already putting 10G in at work. What may seem adequate now may well not be in a short time.

If you encrypt your wireless connection, do not use WEP! WEP can be broken in a matter of minutes using the right software. Use WPA (good) or WPA2 (much, much better,) instead. And change your password regularly.
You won't get much extra protection changing the WPA2 pre shared key, just make it long. And do NOT use WPS "WiFi Protected Setup" if your system comes with it. Learn to do it manually or check to be sure your device(s) are patched for Technical Cyber Security Alert TA12-006A.

And as a practical note - 99.9% of potential interlopers won't bother with even a minimal secure WiFi node anyway. There are plenty of open nodes around, why would they bother. If it really bothers you, record you device MAC addresses, log connections and check your logs.
 
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gatchel

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Wireless is not secure...all forms of encryption have been cracked. Now, will it ever happen to the average Joe Homeowner, probably not.


To the OP. If you haven't built the shop yet make sure you run lots of conduit. 1 run for power and at least 2 other runs of 1.5" or larger if you can swing it. You will be thankful down the road..
 

Gary S

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To the OP. If you haven't built the shop yet make sure you run lots of conduit. 1 run for power and at least 2 other runs of 1.5" or larger if you can swing it. You will be thankful down the road..


Agreed. I ran 2 conduits, and now I wish I had 3. Maybe next summer I'll dig a second trench and bury 2 more conduits.
 

david594

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Okay am I missing something in this post? Why has no one suggested a wireless hub? Why run any cat5/6?


Wireless is really less than ideal. Speeds are relatively slow, and the connection is subject to a fair amount of interference which can be an especially large issue when your covering longer distances and through multiple walls.

On the other hand wired is very reliable and fairly fast. Given that he also is planning to use and IP phone out there, I wouldn't even consider wireless for his application.

General rules of thumb fopr home networking:

  • If you have house guests and you want to give them access to the Internet, get a SECOND wireless router and set it up with a separate subnet and restrict access to your home LAN's subnet (this is tricky to do, consult a networking expert for this.)

You can actually get routers that will support dual SSID's by default, so there is no need to buy 2 wireless access points. Using two access points like this is also less than ideal, as they will both be "fighting" over airtime to transmit which results in excess congestion control and sub-optimal speeds.

Regarding gigabit... If you dont know why you would need it, then you probably don't. But at this point in time the price premium of it is so small that I would recommend most people opt for it if they are buying new hardware. I also feel the same way about "dual band N" wireless equipment. They use both the 2.4ghz and 5.0ghz wireless spectrum which again helps to avoid interference issues. If you're using 2.4ghz only you run the risk of loosing your wireless every time someone uses a microwave...
 
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MrMark

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Does anyone know how to connect two cat 6 cables together. I need to make a patch at my demark box. I didn't know about this discussion before. Glad to read the details here.
 

gt40mkii

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It depends on how you use it. 15 years ago I wired my first house for ethernet. I ran Cat 5e, but my hubs and NICs were all 10mb. It was overkill.
Then, 8 years ago, I bought a different house. Again I wired it with Cat 5e, but all my NICs and ethernet switches were 100mb. It is even more overkill.
Right now, I have a network of 10 computers running in my house and garage including my servers, and for me, 10mb would still be more than I could use.
I'd classify you as a very light network user, then. 10 megabit is pretty slim considering a good number of Internet feeds are faster thin this (mine is 12.) a typical wireless connection is faster, too (up to 56megabits.)

For copying small files, printing, email, and light surfing (music, low-bandwidth video, etc...) 10 megabit will get by for a small number of network users, but beyond that the network becomes a significant bottleneck.

Once you start dealing with large files, particularly uncompressed DV video files (which runs 82GB per hour,) a 10 megabit network is going to hopelessly slow, and a 100msgabit network will be painfully slow. Say you shoot 5 minutes of video at your daughter's birthday party. If you want to move that video file across a network it'll take:

  • 10Mb/s - 1 Hour 11 Minutes 34.97 Seconds (from here.)
  • 100Mb/s - 7 Minutes 9.5 Seconds
  • 1Gb/s - 42.95 Seconds

More typical is that you're watching a movie streaming from a storage device on the network or over the Internet. Little Susie upstairs is doing the same, and Johnny is playing Halo with his buddy across town. That's a lot of data being streamed. A 10 megabit network just won't handle that kind of traffic effectively.

For people who want to feed video through their network, I recommend going as much as you can afford
And there's days, the cost of gigabit equipment is MUCH closer to that of 10/100 gear.

I can get gigabit network cards for less than $15 each. I can get a 5-port gigabit switch for under $25.

If you are using your ethernet as a computer network, 100mb is perfectly adequate and will be for a long time yet.
Sorry -- 100MB might be on paper, but in practice its getting close to its end of life. In a few years Gigabit will be considered standard for even home network backbones.

The problem isn't raw throughput, it's latency. Real-time applications (applications where the TIMING of the packets is as important as their contents,) need lots of excess bandwidth to keep the packets arriving on time. If a big burst of data hits the network just before a frame of video does, that frame of video has to wait for the data in front of hit to make its way through the network. If it doesn't make it to the TV (or whatever,) in time, you see a glitch. If that was a key frame, then you get a horribly trashed image that takes several seconds to fix itself.

QoS (Quality of Service) extensions make this more manageable, but its not a perfect solution. You still need a lot of bandwidth.
 

gt40mkii

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Wireless is not secure...all forms of encryption have been cracked. Now, will it ever happen to the average Joe Homeowner, probably not.
That's a bit misleading.

Yes, wireless encryption can be "cracked". Any encryption algorithm can, in theory, given enough computing horsepower and time.

That last bit is important. Is an intruder willing to spend the necessary computing power and time to gt into your little home LAN? Probably not.

The payoff has to be enough to expend the effort. The NSA develops very difficult encryption algorithms to protect the nation's strategic assets (like encrypting commands to our fleet of ballistic submarines.) There the payoff is pretty high so it demands significant cryptographic defenses.

The most valuable thing on your home LAN may only be your account information. Therefore, you home LAN doesn't need as much protection.

Luckily the protection used in consumer-grade wireless access points is still pretty darned good. Good enough for all but the most critical data.

Though if you set it up incorrectly, the amount of effort becomes almost trivial and little Johnny from two doors down can get in using his laptop and easily-downloadable software in just a few minutes. Set it up correctly and it suddenly becomes several days or weeks of effort. (Which is why I recommend changing your wireless password regularly.)

To the OP. If you haven't built the shop yet make sure you run lots of conduit. 1 run for power and at least 2 other runs of 1.5" or larger if you can swing it. You will be thankful down the road..
Agreed -- conduit, whether under ground or in the walls, is almost always a wise decision.
 

gt40mkii

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Use a range extender/repeater.

Or directional antennas. Still, In light of the fact that conduit is available and he wants to run VoIP to the shop (and eventually probably other streaming media,) I'd stick with a cable.
 

Scott65

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Light to medium use network, a wireless router will be more than sufficient. Make sure that it is wireless N with WPA2 encryption. I have a ton of cat5 running through my house that is virtually unused. My wireless network reliability is great- the key is using good quality switches and a high quality wireless access point.

I have also created a "guest" network via my access point where visitors can access my network, but in a more limited manner than they could through my normal connection.
 

DodgeZ

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Some of these comments make me laugh. Which is great because these threads come up every week.
 

Teken

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Another layer to place on your wireless network or tethered environment is to use MAC address restrictions.

I use this on all our devices. This allows me several advantages in my own environment.

1. Allows me to keep DHCP enabled. So any new devices can be handed out a new IP address. This is used primary on new gear being tested. Once it has been tested, validated it is locked to the MAC address of the device.

2. This will not allow any unknown device to summarily use your network resources.

3. Letting the router manage the *Allowed Devices* on the network gives you the flexibility of knowing what the Fixed IP Address of the device is at all times. But, still allows you to keep the router in DHCP mode which will enable the client the ability to compensate for any changing network resolution problems that may occur that they may not be aware of.

Case in point my ISP provider was doing a lot of firmware upgrades and this caused the router / modem to reboot. This caused the router to hand out a completely different public address each time.

Not very good when you need to remote into a device, or be able to control it, when the fracking network settings keep changing!

Teken . . .
 
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powpow

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Actually

I am running a seperate 200 amp service to the shop, with in floor heat, welders, Air compressor, and hoist, that is alot of power that I dont want to rob from my house. I am trnching in phone and internet to teh shop from the house, Power will be a run from the transformer on the road and water will come direct from my well with a curb stop, then septic will be plumbed into my tanks

This summer, all of that stuff gets put in the ground!!!!

Thanks for all the replies, I decided to run 3 cat 5 e runs just to be on the safe side.
 

Teken

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Does anyone know how to connect two cat 6 cables together. I need to make a patch at my demark box. I didn't know about this discussion before. Glad to read the details here.

A coupler can be used to join two Ethernet cables together. This, however is only meant as a temporary measure.

Running new cable is the desired method in all cases. Keeping in mind to allow a specified *service loop* for future expansion and movement.

Teken . . .
 

gt40mkii

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A coupler can be used to join two Ethernet cables together. This, however is only meant as a temporary measure.

Running new cable is the desired method in all cases. Keeping in mind to allow a specified *service loop* for future expansion and movement.

Teken . . .

I had to splice a bunch of Cat5e cables with those couplers when we moved a customer's data center. That was 5 years ago. One of these days I expect we'll have to go back and rewire the closet to remove them, but so far the customer has been pretty happy.

Honestly, I don't see a problem with them being a permanent solution so long as they are well-made. After all, electrically what's the difference between that and a patch-panel?
 

Teken

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I had to splice a bunch of Cat5e cables with those couplers when we moved a customer's data center. That was 5 years ago. One of these days I expect we'll have to go back and rewire the closet to remove them, but so far the customer has been pretty happy.

Honestly, I don't see a problem with them being a permanent solution so long as they are well-made. After all, electrically what's the difference between that and a patch-panel?

The key phrase is *Well Made* . . . Again, using a coupler, is a good temporary fix to resolve infrastructure issues at the time. Anything intended for permanent install requires the correct termination points.

Anyone who is required to meet guidelines, specs, or safety / security protocols will NEVER use or deploy this method in a Enterprise level network.

Teken . . .
 

puttsy

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Get a cheap switch (head to a tech forum or contact myself/business for help) and run cat5 through buried conduit. Put a switch/hub in the shop and you'll be golden. Contact me for more technical advice and more industry standard common practice.
 

puttsy

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I had to splice a bunch of Cat5e cables with those couplers when we moved a customer's data center. That was 5 years ago. One of these days I expect we'll have to go back and rewire the closet to remove them, but so far the customer has been pretty happy.

Honestly, I don't see a problem with them being a permanent solution so long as they are well-made. After all, electrically what's the difference between that and a patch-panel?

That's just asinine. In any electrical application, couplers, junctions, etc...are a cause of resistance. In digital applications this is magnified due to how the signal transfer works. There are likely loads of packets getting lost at every junction. Digital devices can reconstitute a lot of jumbled mess, something like only needing 1/10 of the signal to accurately display and transfer the data. Good quality or not, you are STILL losing signal at that union. Better or worse than a patch panel? Debatable BUT, at a patch panel, it all terminates in the same place so problems are easier to troubleshoot and quickly resolve the problem.

Sorry for the rant, do things right, do things once. A lot to be said for professionalism.
 
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gt40mkii

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Anyone who is required to meet guidelines, specs, or safety / security protocols
I don't believe you. Show me a published, industry standard that specifically prohibits couplers. The install we did has passed at least 5 annual audits and its not like they're hidden. There's 32 of them in the closet, in plain view for everyone to see, so its not like the auditor overlooked them.
 

puttsy

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BUT, if you want to go over the top, I would strongly recommend fibre channel. NO! This is NOT sarcasm. It is WAY over the top for most homes but, if you're burying cable anyway, run 2 CAT5e (or CAT6) and one run of fibre channel. I work in the IT/IS industry so I'm quite biased, I run fibre and use fibre pretty much whenever possible but, I also own/house a server cluster/small datacenter so I live off of bandwidth and need absolute fast connections. The terminations and equipment to use with fibre are expensive but, the cable is reletively cheap. Don't worry about terminations/other network gear if you run fiber, just let the line live in the box (I assume you'll do home-runs for all your cabling. DUMB to do anything but) and, in the future you can upgrade to fibre chennel if you want, the cable's already there.

Remember though, if you ignore my fibre comment, at least take away that you should run 2 home-runs of CAT5e when you install. Cat5 is cheap and if you run 2, you'll never need to realize why you did. If you run only 1, you'll find out sooner rather than latter why you should have run 2.
 

jeffmoss26

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Puttsy, you said it well. I work in the IT field too and I'll back what you wrote 110 percent.
Do it right the first time and you won't be scratching your head later!

PS, fibre? are you from Canada? :p
 
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