Intersting what you find..........

[GzrGlide]

...when you're doig work around the yard.

I'm running 220V to the garage and as I'm digging the last bit of the trench at the house wall I noticed the 120V service going to the gargage. The LB fitting is actually below grade and the metal tube that went from the top of the LB into the house has pulled out of the wall. I figure the ground settlled over time and pulled it out with it. One more thing to fix!

 

[WH0DAMAN]

...when you're doig work around the yard.

I'm running 220V to the garage and as I'm digging the last bit of the trench at the house wall I noticed the 120V service going to the gargage. The LB fitting is actually below grade and the metal tube that went from the top of the LB into the house has pulled out of the wall. I figure the ground settlled over time and pulled it out with it. One more thing to fix!

Thats how all my projects seemed to go when I had an older house. One thing always led to another. Good luck on your fix.

 

[Stuart in MN]

LB fittings aren't rated for below grade use. If you're installing a new 220 line to the garage I assume the 120 line gets removed anyway.

 

[GzrGlide]

LB fittings aren't rated for below grade use. If you're installing a new 220 line to the garage I assume the 120 line gets removed anyway.

Nope. The 220 is an additional line to the 120. Running to a sub panel in the garage and branching off to two other circuits.

Why would I take out the 120?

 

[ddawg16]

Why would I take out the 120?

Because that 120 is already one phase of that 220v. Not real safe to have two different feeds to the garage unless you know 'exactly' where they are coming from.

And as correctly noted above, LB's are not rated for under ground....you can't seal them from water.

 

[russlaferrera]

I ran into the same thing when I purchased this home. The garage has 220 service with it's own meter. I was replacing a broken outlet so a cut off the main breaker. Power is off. I thought there was no need to check to see if the outlet was live. SURPRISE SURPRISE. He had a 120 line to the garage.

 

[Torque1st]

I ran into the same thing when I purchased this home. The garage has 220 service with it's own meter. I was replacing a broken outlet so a cut off the main breaker. Power is off. I thought there was no need to check to see if the outlet was live. SURPRISE SURPRISE. He had a 120 line to the garage.

That is exactly why there are rules about services to buildings...

 

[GzrGlide]

What am I missing here. I don't understand thh need to remove the 120V line.
The new 220 line has a breaker in the house on the main panel, and the 6-3 cable comes into the garage and ends up at a seperate subpanel, which then has (2) 220V circuits, on their own breakers, coming from the sub panel. The 120V and the 220V are completely isolated from each other.

So what am I missing or not understanding here.

 

[tfi racing]

You don't have to remove it but I would recommend it for the reasons given above,also what purpose will it serve?If you choose to repair the line and leave it,make sure it is labelled on the garage sub panel so nobody gets a surprise down the road!

 

[GzrGlide]

Ok. I think I wasn't clear enough in my original or follow up posts. The 120V service goes from the main box in the house straight to the garage, but doesn't go into the sub panel I'm going to use for the 220V service. The 220 is the only service going thru the garage subpanel, and is on its own braker in the house panel.

Sorry, my bad.

 

[Torque1st]

The danger lies when someone flips off all the breakers in the sub panel then goes to mess with something on the original 120V circuit and is electrocuted.

A building can only have ONE electrical service.

BTW- I believe you need one more wire to the sub panel. You must isolate the neutral bus bar from the enclosure in a sub panel. The enclosure must also have a separate ground bus grounded with a separate wire back to the main panel of the appropriate size and have a connection to the enclosure.

A sub panel must have:
"Hot" wires, either 1 or 2.
A neutral wire isolated from the enclosure.
A ground wire connected to the enclosure.
Both the ground and neutral go to the same busbar in the main panel but they must have separate busbars in the sub panel.

 

[hidollartoys]

Why dont you put the 120v line to a "local disconnect" box in the garage preferably next to the 220v panel and adequately labled. You could isolate the grnd and neutral and even drive a ground rod and ground the 120 v at the the garage. Not exactly to code but in the spirit. Just a thought.

 

[Junkman]

This is an exact reason why in many jurisdictions. homeowners are not allowed to do their own electrical work. The code is clear that there can only be one electrical service to a building, but here we have an owner that doesn't care what is code or safe, but wants to do it his way, even after being told that it is improper. What happens 10 years down the road when the home in sold, and the new owner doesn't know about the dual feeds, and is electrocuted? What happens is that the present owner is held legally and criminally responsible. Should we start your legal defense fund now or later????

 

[Junkman]

Why dont you put the 120v line to a "local disconnect" box in the garage preferably next to the 220v panel and adequately labled. You could isolate the grnd and neutral and even drive a ground rod and ground the 120 v at the the garage. Not exactly to code but in the spirit. Just a thought.

JUst a thought.. why don't you encourage him to follow the proper proceedure rather than encouraging him with ways to do an illegal act???????

 

[goodfellow]

This is an exact reason why in many jurisdictions. homeowners are not allowed to do their own electrical work. The code is clear that there can only be one electrical service to a building, but here we have an owner that doesn't care what is code or safe, but wants to do it his way, even after being told that it is improper. What happens 10 years down the road when the home in sold, and the new owner doesn't know about the dual feeds, and is electrocuted? What happens is that the present owner is held legally and criminally responsible. Should we start your legal defense fund now or later????

Absolutely!!!! I bought a house from an owner who used "Rube Goldberg" methods when building the basement family room. Nothing marked, many shortcuts and definitely not to code. The inspection didn't catch any of this ****, and I had to rip out several wall areas to pull new wire.

Build it to existing code!!!

 

[Junkman]

I was told by a friend that bought a home that the State of Florida has a $3000 hold back on sales money just to protect the buyers from hidden problems that may arise after the sale. With some of the things that home owners do, I wonder if this is enough????

 

[GzrGlide]

Wow did this thread wander off.
Ok, first off, I don't live in the same jurisdiction as you, or even the same country so although from a "common sense" point of view your views may make sense, from a "code" point of view for my jurisdiction, they don't.

Not that I should, or even have to, but since I'm being painted as irresponsible and borderline criminal, I'll explain some of the rest of the story.....

I'm not an electrician. Don't pretend to be. Thats why before I even started this I called an electrician and although he didn't have the time to do the work, he came out and explained to me in great detail what needed to be done and even gave me a copy of the local requirements to fall back on. He spent alot of time going over the panel in the house, the existing circuits in the garage and even what I wanted the 220 for.

He's hooking it up, but only if it's done to the LOCAL reqirements/code. So in short, my installation, to the best of my knowledge and supported by this jurisdictions requirements, is to code.

I even talked a few folks locally I know that have had 220 put into an existing garage and they're no different than what I'm doing.

If I was in your jurisdiction, it obviously wouldn't be to code and it wouldn't pass inspection. But then again, I wouldn't have been able to do it this way in your jurisdiction.

So cut me some slack buddy.

 

[Junkman]

You ask a question on a site who's members are in all probability 95% based in the US about an electrical question, and fail to mention that you life in another country that has its own electrical code. You asked "Why would I take out the 120?" You were given the reasons, however you claim that your code allows this. If that is the case, then why didn't you say so in the beginning? When you get the answers that you don't like, you tell us about your local electrician has already "explained to me in great detail what needed to be done and even gave me a copy of the local requirements to fall back on." Since you already have the code, why don't you just read it and follow it. Don't expect us to know what the code is based on another countries rules and regulations.

 

[GzrGlide]

I figured it would be obvious I'm not in the US when it says "Canada" right in the "Location" header. Maybe the tone was misinterpreted in my posts, but no disrespect was meant and I was just curious as to why the 120 service should be removed.

Well now I know I know that your local code requires that and you know that ours doesn't. We both learned something new. It's been a good day.

I didn't explain every fine detail of who I talked to and what they told me during this wonderful adventure because it didn't seem incredibly relevant at the time until the percieved "tone" changed with this diddy....."but here we have an owner that doesn't care what is code or safe, but wants to do it his way" which is untrue.

Time to go.

 

[toadjammer]

But like others have stated "unsafe" IMHO.

 

[duke5572]

Do I smell a union electrician on the thread?

 

[W-Cummins]

Well I shouldn't, but why not.....


IF he was in the US in an area using the NEC code...

From the 2005 NEC handbook

Service. The conductors and equipment for delivering electric energy from the serving
utility to the wiring system of the premises served.
The definition of service includes the statement that electric energy to a service can be
supplied only by the serving utility. If electric energy is supplied by other than the
serving utility, the supplied conductors and equipment are considered feeders, not a
service.


So his wires are feeders, not a service... and he does not have 2 services to his building.

And, anyway you can have more than one service into a building under NEC code.....

230.2 section D lists a few common exceptions that are used in many areas ( esp the electric heating only services )


William....

 

[tfi racing]

The Canadian code is not much different on definition of service vs. feeders,it is really not a lot different from the NEC,at least from my observations.Usually if you give a NEC based answer to a Canadian's question,the CEC based answer won't be drastically different.However the practical use in the field and interpretation of the code does vary widely from region to region and even from city to the surrounding county,I'm sure you will find the same story on the US side regarding the NEC.The CEC is a safety standard,not an instruction manual and is not intended for the untrained,I would guess the intent of the NEC would be similiar.Ten different electricians can read a rule and come up with ten different solutions and all still comply with that rule,chances are what your local inspector interprets as correct is the method that you will have to use,whether you agree or not...

 

[sberry]

It is a strict code violation to have 2 feeds going to the garage, remove the 120 line.

 

[BigChevy80]

I just can't figure out why you would WANT to leave the 120 line? Run a big enough wire for your new subpanel and run everything in the garage off of the new panel. Why would you want to leave the 120?

 

[toadjammer]

He wants to leave it for the obvious inevetable shock he will get when he turns the panel off and finds that he still has power to an outlet and gets shocked, or the next home owner of that property finds out in the same manner but dies from electrocution.