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Is 60A enough

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jarhead

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Just moved and have a detached garage.

The Main panel on the house is 200A has a 60A breaker for the detached garage.

The picture is of the panel in the garage. Looks like #4 aluminum.

I'd like to swap the panel out with something that has more breakers, keeping the 60A overall capacity.
Is this doable with the below requirements?

Milling machine 20A
Lathe 20A
Air compressor 30A Ingersoll 5 HP single stage
(2) Welders 30A Hobart 190 Mig, HTP 221 TIG
Electric heater 30A
Jet air filtration 20A
(2) garage door openers
X1C Bambu 3D printer
Would like 2 light circuits, 2 outlet circuits
Miscellaneous 110V tools, sander, saw, 20V battery chargers, etc

It's just me so only one thing can run at a time. The air compressor will kick on and off while i am doing certain things.

Thanks, Joe

Panel.jpg
 
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mm08822

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You will need a panel with a main cb as a disconnect for a detached garage.
I suggest a 100A panel with main cb and 24 spaces.
The 60a cb in the main panel protects the feeder.
Neutral block to be unbounded.
Requires a separate ground bar (as you have now.)
Also requires 2 ground rods.
 
A

Aaron_W

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I've got the set up mentioned above with 100A panel and 60A breaker and it has worked fine for me. Couple of significant differences, HVAC is off the main panel, so not part of the 60A, and I have a much smaller compressor.

My only concern would be if you were running the heater 30A, filter 20A, one of your welders 30A, plus lights, stereo etc and then your air compressor 30A kicks on, so potentially doubling your rated load if everything lines up just right.

At 60A you might have to consciously think about what you've got running for some edge cases, but generally I'd think it should be fine.
 
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theoldwizard1

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mm08822 said:
You will need a panel with a main cb as a disconnect for a detached garage.
Click to expand...
It depends on the number of circuits the load center has. Yes, it is "best practice".

To answer the OP's question, a typical one man shop can easily run on 60A, with on exception. Mini-split heat pump/air conditioner AND trying to run a plasma cutter which also requires and air compressor. Just turn off the HVAC when running the plasma cutter and compressor.
 
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Jeff Ivers

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If you are working in the cold weather at night with your welder, would your load not potentially be 30 + 30 + 15, which would potentially exceed your 60 amps by 15 amps? I have a 100 amp feed for my shop, run gas heater, and a 20 amp welder.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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theoldwizard1 said:
It depends on the number of circuits the load center has. Yes, it is "best practice".

To answer the OP's question, a typical one man shop can easily run on 60A, with on exception. Mini-split heat pump/air conditioner AND trying to run a plasma cutter which also requires and air compressor. Just turn off the HVAC when running the plasma cutter and compressor.
Click to expand...
no it depends on how many breaker handles the panel has. and it isnt a best practice thing, its a code requirement if more than 6 handles.
 
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PCustoms

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wyliesdiesels said:
no it depends on how many break handles the panel has. and it isnt a best practice thing, its a code requirement if more than 6 handles.
Click to expand...
I think you jumped on the wrong guy there...

@mm08822 is the one that said it needed a main breaker
 
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u2slow

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#4 aluminum may be good to 75A , depending on the cable type and distance. 60A may have been chosen because it was more readily available.

I have a big new 7" angle grinder that needs a 20A circuit or it's basically unusable. Still has a 5-15 cord plug.
 
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PCustoms

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wyliesdiesels said:
nope didnt jump on the wrong guy.

mm08822 is correct.
Click to expand...

Really? Seems wrong to me, even contradicts what you wrote.

Mm08822 says it is required to have a disconnect:

mm08822 said:
You will need a panel with a main cb as a disconnect for a detached garage.
Click to expand...

Theoldwizard says it depends on the circuits, but it is "best practice" to have one

theoldwizard1 said:
It depends on the number of circuits the load center has. Yes, it is "best practice".
Click to expand...

Then you say:

wyliesdiesels said:
no it depends on how many breaker handles the panel has. and it isnt a best practice thing, its a code requirement if more than 6 handles.
Click to expand...

I think there's also some immediate assumptions that the OP has to start over and run a 4 wire feed as well
 
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Sumboodie

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WisJim said:
Yes, but wires and circuit breakers are rated in AMPs, so your 60 amp service can run twice the wattage at 240 than at 120 volts.
Click to expand...
60 amp service at 240v.... 14,400 watts total.

If perfectly balanced on both lines, you could have 60 amps x2 of 120v stuff running... 14,440 watts.
 
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mm08822

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PCustoms said:
I think you jumped on the wrong guy there...

@mm08822 is the one that said it needed a main breaker
Click to expand...
Why bother replacing the existing panel if you're going to limit yourself to 6 throws of the hand?
OP could already exceed that now if he loaded up the existing panel.

OP stated he wants more circuit potential.

WIZ is being penny wise, pound foolish.
YOU TOO! See if Walmart is hiring.
 
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larry_g

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OK think about this. Is it harder to start with the current feed and if doesn't work for you then up grade the feed in the future? Or is it simple to upgrade the feed now but much harder a year from now? I'm going to assume here that it is no harder to upgrade the feed in the future than it is now, so go with what you have till it proves insufficient.

lg
no neat sig line
 
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mm08822

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larry_g said:
OK think about this. Is it harder to start with the current feed and if doesn't work for you then up grade the feed in the future? Or is it simple to upgrade the feed now but much harder a year from now? I'm going to assume here that it is no harder to upgrade the feed in the future than it is now, so go with what you have till it proves insufficient.

lg
no neat sig line
Click to expand...
As long as the sub-panel has at least the minimum ampacity of the feeder cb in the main panel, they can be treated as 2 seperate projects.
 
OP
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jarhead

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wyliesdiesels said:
looks like you may only have a 3-wire feed. also i see brown thermostat wire in the bottom of the panel. what is that for?
Click to expand...
It is a phone line that isn't supposed to be in there. It is now non-functional.

It is a 3 wire feed. The inspector made them install 2 ground rods several feet apart and it appears they used a #6 copper wire.
 
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OP
J

jarhead

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mm08822 said:
You will need a panel with a main cb as a disconnect for a detached garage.
I suggest a 100A panel with main cb and 24 spaces.
The 60a cb in the main panel protects the feeder.
Neutral block to be unbounded.
Requires a separate ground bar (as you have now.)
Also requires 2 ground rods.
Click to expand...
Are you saying to leave the 100A main in the new panel? Can i just have a 60A at both ends?
 
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mm08822

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jarhead said:
Are you saying to leave the 100A main in the new panel? Can i just have a 60A at both ends?
Click to expand...
Yes, leave the 100A cb in the new sub-panel. The 60a cb in the main panel protects the feeder.

Why bother putting in a 60a ? You can probably buy a 100a main cb panel cheaper than a main lug panel and adding a 60A to it with a cb hold down kit.
 
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mm08822

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jarhead said:
It is a phone line that isn't supposed to be in there. It is now non-functional.

It is a 3 wire feed. The inspector made them install 2 ground rods several feet apart and it appears they used a #8 copper wire.
Click to expand...
If the phone line cable is rated for 300v, then it could be ok. Conduit fill and derating could have impact but really trivial at this time with cell phones. Inspection has long since occurred.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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jarhead said:
It is a phone line that isn't supposed to be in there. It is now non-functional.

It is a 3 wire feed. The inspector made them install 2 ground rods several feet apart and it appears they used a #8 copper wire.
Click to expand...
welp the neutral bar isnt bonded. also is there metallic conduit between the buildings?
 
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u2slow

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alfredeneuman said:
That's in the 90 degree column. There are no breakers or devices rated for that temp. Using the 75 degree column (which most equipment is rated for) the figure is 65A.
Click to expand...
65A in the 75° column, and thus may be eligible for a 70A breaker. Your Code may vary.
 
OP
J

jarhead

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@wyliesdiesels
No there isn't any conduit in the ground as far as i can tell. Only PVC going into the ground at each end. It appears they direct buried 65' of wire. I don't think any of it was permitted. Hard to tell since the owner passed away in 2012.

I will have do do some digging next spring and i hope i am wrong about NO conduit. A fish tape doesn't go very far into what is there.
 
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mm08822

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wyliesdiesels said:
welp the neutral bar isnt bonded. also is there metallic conduit between the buildings?
Click to expand...

jarhead said:
@wyliesdiesels
No there isn't any conduit in the ground as far as i can tell. Only PVC going into the ground at each end. It appears they direct buried 65' of wire. I don't think any of it was permitted. Hard to tell since the owner passed away in 2012.

I will have do do some digging next spring and i hope i am wrong about NO conduit. A fish tape doesn't go very far into what is there.
Click to expand...
Based on these 2 details, there is effectively no connection of the sub-panel ground bar back to the main panel. (Ground rods have nothing to do with this connection.) This is an eminent hazard.

AS A TEMPORARY SAFETY FIX.........run a jumper from the neutral bar to the ground bar. This can be properly corrected if/when a 4-wire feeder is installed.
 
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J

jarhead

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mm08822 said:
Based on these 2 details, there is effectively no connection of the sub-panel ground bar back to the main panel. (Ground rods have nothing to do with this connection.) This is an eminent hazard.

AS A TEMPORARY SAFETY FIX.........run a jumper from the neutral bar to the ground bar. This can be properly corrected if/when a 4-wire feeder is installed.
Click to expand...
We explained that to the #$@#### realtors over and over only to be blown off. They had an electrician put two ground rods in at the attached pictured panel several feet apart and used a #8 or #6 wire and called it good. We still went back and forth after that and they credited me $450 to run a new trench with a ground. I was livid but we had already closed on the house by then. All i have been using in the shop at this point is the lights.

I appreciate the response.
 
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J

jarhead

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Here is the panel after moving some of the wires out of the way for clarity.

The copper ground is going to two ground rods spaced several feet apart, It is not going back to the main panel. It has (3) aluminum wires coming from the main panel at the house about 65'.

Bought a 100 Amp load center today.
Assuming i still need to run a ground from the main panel?

www.homedepot.com

GE 100 Amp 20-Space 20-Circuit Main Breaker Indoor Load Center Contractor Kit TM2010CCUBK1 - The Home Depot

Save money and space at your workspace with the addition of this excellent GE Main Breaker Indoor Load Center Contractor Kit.
www.homedepot.com
 

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