Is access to a junction box in a ceiling through a light fixture to code?

[Innovate1]

Putting in some hockey puck LED recessed fixtures and the junction box built in is very small. Min size wire here is 12. I want to put several on one circuit but putting 2 cables in one fixture is going to be tight. Probably can make it fit. Other option is to put a box in the ceiling right above the fixture. The lights just have a spring loaded system that holds them in a hole in the ceiling so can be removed without tools. Is this considered accessible for code purposes?

On the flip side, any issue with fixture "box fill" if I put two cables and cram everything in? The only thing I saw in the instructions mentioned wiring with 14 wire but didn't specifically say ONLY 14.

 

[thayer]

The electrical code is by jurisdiction but all codes reference national standards. The national electric code (NEC) is the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) publication #70. It is available online.

The NEC requires all splices to be in a junction or fixture box. Neither can be installed unexposed. With respect to the number of wires in a box you should consult NEC 370-16(A) which walks you through a formula based on box volume and conductor gauge. For example, A 4” x 4” standard box can take (9) 12 ga conductors.

Good luck!

 

[Wrench97]

When did 12 become the minimum size for a lighting circuit?

 

[dscheidt]

When did 12 become the minimum size for a lighting circuit?

Some counties around St. Louis require it. No idea why (other than the inspectors must own copper mines.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The answer is NO!

 

[Innovate1]

The electrical code is by jurisdiction but all codes reference national standards. The national electric code (NEC) is the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) publication #70. It is available online.

The NEC requires all splices to be in a junction or fixture box. Neither can be installed unexposed. With respect to the number of wires in a box you should consult NEC 370-16(A) which walks you through a formula based on box volume and conductor gauge. For example, A 4” x 4” standard box can take (9) 12 ga conductors.

Good luck!

I am not doubting that is not all accurate but entirely not the question I am asking.

Recessed can lights have a built in junction box that isn't accessible without taking the can out of the fixture. Then you get to it through the light hole so the basic method of access is acceptable, at least when built into a fixture. I am thinking I could put another, separate junction box in the same space above the ceiling to be accessed the same way. Seems this would be allowed but just checking to see if this is generally the case. Would be easy to throw a box up there for the multiple wires.

 

[Innovate1]

The answer is NO!

No I can't put both cables into the fixture, no I can't put the box in the ceiling to be accessed through the light hole or no to both?

If so, how is this generally handled? I could put a bigger switch box - I already have quite a few wires there.

 

[sparky 1971]

If the wall is open, or if you feel like opening it up, change the switch box out. Get a 2-1/8" deep 4X4 box with a 1-1/4" raised single gang mud ring. Set the box back so the mud ring sticks out just far enough for the drywall. Now you have a bunch of room to run individual wires to each fixture. You could also use a 4-11/16" square box, that would give you a ton of room, but good luck finding a mud ring anywhere but a supply house.l

 

[sparky 1971]

I am not doubting that is not all accurate but entirely not the question I am asking.

Recessed can lights have a built in junction box that isn't accessible without taking the can out of the fixture. Then you get to it through the light hole so the basic method of access is acceptable, at least when built into a fixture. I am thinking I could put another, separate junction box in the same space above the ceiling to be accessed the same way. Seems this would be allowed but just checking to see if this is generally the case. Would be easy to throw a box up there for the multiple wires.

I doubt a junction box would fit through the hole for the lights.

 

[Terry D]

I know what your saying about the j-boxes on that style of fixture. Did you look in the j-box for a cubic inch rating?

 

[Terry D]

If the wall is open, or if you feel like opening it up, change the switch box out. Get a 2-1/8" deep 4X4 box with a 1-1/4" raised single gang mud ring. Set the box back so the mud ring sticks out just far enough for the drywall. Now you have a bunch of room to run individual wires to each fixture. You could also use a 4-11/16" square box, that would give you a ton of room, but good luck finding a mud ring anywhere but a supply house.l

Home depots around here carry 4 11/16 mud rings, seems crazy, but they do

 

[Innovate1]

I doubt a junction box would fit through the hole for the lights.

First, it's new construction so I could put a 12" box there.

Second, it's a 5" hole for the light. A 4" box would fit easily. Wouldn't even need a 4" box to meet box fill.

 

[Innovate1]

I know what your saying about the j-boxes on that style of fixture. Did you look in the j-box for a cubic inch rating?

I looked at the fixture and didn't find any marking of volume. I put some standard can lights in the house and they had a bigger junction box. Still not huge but I daisy chained the lights and it passed inspection but quite a while ago and a different AHJ.

I haven't seem many light fixtures with volume markings. If no markings how do you tell what is allowed or does that mean just one cable to the fixture?

Here is the light:
https://www.menards.com/main/lighting-ceiling-fans/indoor-lighting/recessed-lights/sylvania-reg-microdisk-4-60w-equivalent-dimmable-led-recessed-white-ultra-thin-downlight/61404/p-1561098605803-c-7499.htm
And the spec sheet:
https://hw.menardc.com/main/items/media/GTESY001/Prod_Tech_Spec/3491350Spec.pdf

 

[Innovate1]

Tempting to try to cram both cables in. If I can fit it in I doubt it will get flagged.

 

[thayer]

In the case of the NEC “accessible” means not having to remove obstacles and essentially all junction boxes need to be exposed in the finished surface. I think the answer is no. I’d recommend checking the allowable conductor volume for the box built into your high-hat to see if you can make the junction there.

 

[sparky 1971]

First, it's new construction so I could put a 12" box there.

Second, it's a 5" hole for the light. A 4" box would fit easily. Wouldn't even need a 4" box to meet box fill.

5" is a big *** hockey puck.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No I can't put both cables into the fixture, no I can't put the box in the ceiling to be accessed through the light hole or no to both?

If so, how is this generally handled? I could put a bigger switch box - I already have quite a few wires there.

I was responding to your thread title.

Thayer covered it below

as to the box fill and number of wires, depends on marked cu in of box...

In the case of the NEC “accessible” means not having to remove obstacles and essentially all junction boxes need to be exposed in the finished surface. I think the answer is no. I’d recommend checking the allowable conductor volume for the box built into your high-hat to see if you can make the junction there.

 

[Innovate1]

I was responding to your thread title.

Thayer covered it below

as to the box fill and number of wires, depends on marked cu in of box...

As I have stated I did not find anything marked on the fixture as to volume of the box. I haven't seen that on junction boxes incorporated into fixtures. Was just looking at some 4' direct wire florescent fixtures. There is a ton of room in them but nothing to say a volume. I wish someone could tell me how to treat those if they are non-standard and not marked.

Just picked up a bigger box for the switches so I can just avoid the issue completely.

I shouldn't have used the term "hockey puck" but that's sort of what they look like. It's an LED version of a can light but with a separate electronics/junction box it is very thin.

 

[mc4life27]

I put in something very similar to what you describe, they were rated for direct mounting to a ceiling light box. They had hardware to be sheetrock mounted, as well as direct box mount hardware. They take the place of the cover on the box for code purposes. So, what you want can definitely be done with the right hardware, not sure yours are rated for direct box mounting or not.

It’s called a pancake fan box or sometimes a pancake light box but I’m theory the fan box would be rated to hold 50 ponds or so and the light box would not be fan rated. Also they come in either 4 inch or 3 1/2 but around here the 3 1/2 are hard to find in a pancake version.



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[Bert_]

It needs to be accessible without damage to the building. If the light comes out and gives access to the box with no damage to the sheetrock then it's OK.

I've "buried" a box next to a can light in a ceiling once or twice. It's something I would avoid if at all possible though. Working through a hole that small is not easy.

If this is new construction I would not do it. When remodeling sometimes you have limited choices but when everything is open there will be a better way.

 

[Git]

Or maybe you could use one of these code approved 'taps' that don't need a junction box

https://www.lowes.com/pd/TE-Connectivity-20-Amp-Volt-White-2-Wire-Connector/50205335

 

[cybrdyke]

I shouldn't have used the term "hockey puck" but that's sort of what they look like. It's an LED version of a can light but with a separate electronics/junction box it is very thin.

Wafer light. The separate box is the driver with a connection compartment. The compartment usually very tight, but they're only made to have an incoming supply and an outgoing jumper to the next one. In my area, the code is that they need to be physically attached to something structural in new construction, but not in remodel or old work.
There's no need for a volume designation on the wiring compartment in fixtures since they dont get used for any thing else other than connecting fixtures together.
CD

 

[Cmreschke]

In the case of the NEC “accessible” means not having to remove obstacles and essentially all junction boxes need to be exposed in the finished surface. I think the answer is no. I’d recommend checking the allowable conductor volume for the box built into your high-hat to see if you can make the junction there.

Wrong. Can you explain a junction box in a drop ceiling? What you think of as accessible is readily accessible.

 

[Terry D]

Wrong. Can you explain a junction box in a drop ceiling? What you think of as accessible is readily accessible.

I agree with you 100%

 

[Innovate1]

From what I have read the NEC reads that no part of the building has to be removed for access.

Access panels are ok I figure. As for access through lights the 2020 code has a change which reads:

"NEC 410.118 Access to Other Boxes. (Luminaires, Etc.)

Luminaires recessed in ceilings, floors, or walls shall not be used to access outlet, pull, or junction boxes or conduit bodies, unless the box or conduit body is an integral part of the listed luminaire'

Although it may be poor practice it wasn't expressly prohibited before as far as I can tell.

And you could mount something else like a recessed speaker or an actual access panel (anything but a light or part of the building) on the ceiling and use that for access the way I read it.

 

[Innovate1]

I measured the integrated junction box. 6.9 cu in and that's rounding up the odd measurements. Not even enough for 3 #14 and a clamp. Bottom line I think is that equipment is not covered by NEC but by UL. That's how it is for equipment we design at work (not lights btw). So I went ahead and put both cables in the first one to go on to the second. Tight but easily fit in by hand. No hammer handles or the like needed.

I have everything done for rough in electrical inspection this week (woo hoo!!) so we shall see.

 

[Innovate1]

Got the inspection. No issues. Just looked around a little and said it looks good. Didn't ask me about anything but what I planned to put on the walls. On to plumbing!

 

[MrSurly]

Very interesting topic as these wafer lights are everywhere! I installed some nearly identical units (also Menards) last year at my daughter's place. I had a similar dilemma, but I was able to run 14ga. I was left wondering though... about the size of the included box vs NEC fill allowances and also about the connector that is between the box and the light. Why is this allowed to be outside a box? Yes, of course it's Listed as a whole fixture so legal, but still puzzling.
The next question on similar wafers that I have yet to put up; these include a cable with the driver molded inline and the cable is a pigtail. There is no box included so now the dilemma: the wafers have spring clips for drywall, no box and no direct to box mounting provisions. How are they to be 'legally' installed? A box is required for the connection, but (according to some above) mounting a box there is illegal. How is the fixture to be used?

 

[MrSurly]

Or maybe you could use one of these code approved 'taps' that don't need a junction box

https://www.lowes.com/pd/TE-Connectivity-20-Amp-Volt-White-2-Wire-Connector/50205335

OK, those are interesting, if actually code compliant. Are they IC rated as well?

 

[rlitman]

...The next question on similar wafers that I have yet to put up; these include a cable with the driver molded inline and the cable is a pigtail. There is no box included so now the dilemma: the wafers have spring clips for drywall, no box and no direct to box mounting provisions. How are they to be 'legally' installed? A box is required for the connection, but (according to some above) mounting a box there is illegal. How is the fixture to be used?

The driver includes the junction box under its own UL listing. THAT is the box for the connection.

That sort of wafer light itself does NOT require a box. It simply clips to the drywall. Make sure you have slack on the wire so the driver box can be pulled out of the hole for service.

 

[Git]

OK, those are interesting, if actually code compliant. Are they IC rated as well?

It is my understanding that an IC rating has to do with insulation rating and a downlight. Can insulation come into contact with the light sort of thing - which I don't think applies in this situation?

I suggested those taps as a way to get around the 'box fill' problem. you could run the main circuit past the lights and then use a tap to branch off to each light. No junction box needed, but these are only for 'old work' not new construction. At $7 each they could get expensive, but they definitely solve a problem if your in need of one. I used one to branch off from an outlet circuit and ran it up the wall to where I was installing a new TV. Worked out great for me

 

[MrSurly]

The driver includes the junction box under its own UL listing. THAT is the box for the connection.

That sort of wafer light itself does NOT require a box. It simply clips to the drywall. Make sure you have slack on the wire so the driver box can be pulled out of the hole for service.

I wish I could make sense of it. It even says “junction box” in a pic of the driver but the driver doesn’t open and that doesn’t do anything to enclose the pigtail connections.
Here’s the item link for their pics and a couple of pics that show the pigtail.
These apparently are CE rated but not UL.
https://www.amazon.com/Dimmable-Recessed-Ultra-Thin-Daylight-Downlight/dp/B079JSRTNL?th=1&psc=1


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[MrSurly]

It is my understanding that an IC rating has to do with insulation rating and a downlight. Can insulation come into contact with the light sort of thing - which I don't think applies in this situation?



I suggested those taps as a way to get around the 'box fill' problem. you could run the main circuit past the lights and then use a tap to branch off to each light. No junction box needed, but these are only for 'old work' not new construction. At $7 each they could get expensive, but they definitely solve a problem if your in need of one. I used one to branch off from an outlet circuit and ran it up the wall to where I was installing a new TV. Worked out great for me

I’m thinking that they might be perfect for the pigtailed wafers that I have. Awfully pricey per light but, likely a big hassle saver.






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[rlitman]

I wish I could make sense of it. It even says “junction box” in a pic of the driver but the driver doesn’t open and that doesn’t do anything to enclose the pigtail connections.
Here’s the item link for their pics and a couple of pics that show the pigtail.
These apparently are CE rated but not UL.
https://www.amazon.com/Dimmable-Recessed-Ultra-Thin-Daylight-Downlight/dp/B079JSRTNL?th=1&psc=1


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ohhh. THOSE aren’t code compliant in the US so far as I know. Real UL listed ones don’t have that pigtail.

 

[cybrdyke]

Ohhh. THOSE aren’t code compliant in the US so far as I know. Real UL listed ones don’t have that pigtail.

That's Amazon ****. Not worth the cardboard they came in.
CD

 

[Git]

Actually, Amazon has a great deal on some wafer lights at $15 each - normally around $30. If your in the market for a 8" light with a square bezel. I have used about 30 of their 6" lights with a round bezel so far and have been very please

 

[MrSurly]

That's Amazon ****. Not worth the cardboard they came in.
CD

Wait, do we have to toss out all the Amazon now?

 

[cybrdyke]

Wait, do we have to toss out all the Amazon now?

Not sure what you mean by that.

There's plenty of good stuff and plenty of bad stuff on Amazon. In my opinion, far more bad than good. And there's a level of bad stuff that you cant find anywhere else on the planet. That's what I call Amazon ****.
I think it's pretty common knowledge that Amazon and ebay offer a level of junk that you cant find anywhere else in the real world....along with some good stuff.

Sometimes it's not the consumers fault for buying Amazon ****. They just dont know the differences in the products. In this case, the wafer light looks similar, puts out some kind of light (hopefully) and it was CHEEEEP. Plus, there are a zillion glowing reviews. So, "Add to Cart".

Then when you get it, you find out that you cant install it, or that it puts out some weird blue color, or that you cant dim it, etc....because it's not a real lighting product, it's Amazon ****. And it's too bad, because how were you supposed to know? The solution is to return them and get something better.
CD

 

[McFixit]

In the case of the NEC “accessible” means not having to remove obstacles and essentially all junction boxes need to be exposed in the finished surface. I think the answer is no. I’d recommend checking the allowable conductor volume for the box built into your high-hat to see if you can make the junction there.

This doesn't make sense. Pretty much all low voltage can lights I've ever seen have a junction box and a transformer in the ceiling that's only accessible by removing the can.

 

[McFixit]

From what I have read the NEC reads that no part of the building has to be removed for access.

Access panels are ok I figure. As for access through lights the 2020 code has a change which reads:

"NEC 410.118 Access to Other Boxes. (Luminaires, Etc.)

Luminaires recessed in ceilings, floors, or walls shall not be used to access outlet, pull, or junction boxes or conduit bodies, unless the box or conduit body is an integral part of the listed luminaire'

Although it may be poor practice it wasn't expressly prohibited before as far as I can tell.

And you could mount something else like a recessed speaker or an actual access panel (anything but a light or part of the building) on the ceiling and use that for access the way I read it.

I appreciate you doing the research and finding the actual code.

Do you happen to know whether the box has to be mounted, or can it just sit on the drywall in the ceiling?
I'm talking here about the junction/driver box that comes with an LED wafer light.