Is it just me?
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I have tried to buy cheap when I know I wont use something often, we all have the proverbial "I only need it for THIS job" thinking you'll never use it again so do not want to spend much; I spend more time and aggravation returning the thing for another and usually wind up returning it and spending more money on something better so as to be able to complete "that" job without no more wasted time or aggravation.
I may have said this before but I find myself seeking out "used" often before I break down and spend the money on new...
I may have said this before but I find myself seeking out "used" often before I break down and spend the money on new...
The Ford, GM, and the Chrysler cars, at least in 70's and 80's were regarded
as low quality, especially comparing to Japanese cars.
I knew 1 guy, in around 1995, was selling his '82 Civic, which he'd driven
for more than 2 yrs, only put in a bottle of oil, and nothing else, no
maintenance at all. He once hit dumpster, so the car is ugly; even in that
condition, people lined up, no one asked to have a test drive, to buy his
car, even begged him to hold it, as they need to get money over the weekend.
I was also told by my buddy, that his '97 or so Saturn had to go through
major repair right after warranty. It's just too much trouble and expensive
then to keep a big-3 car
Dieselbutterfly
Well-known member
please read the op's post on wtf snap on tool thread.it is a snap on jack stand with a shaft marked made in usa,but an unmarked base made overseas(according to snap on cust.service 1-800-786-6600)this is not what i expect for a company that charges what they do,let alone other issues.i think many countries produce fine products,that has nothing to do with the problems of outsourcing.or the peoblems created when ceo's of tool companies(since that is our particular topic,not tv or cars)read how much some people just dont care if it is not made in the good ole USA
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RalphInCA
Well-known member
This will start an argument, I'm sure... And no, I am not trolling:
But since this is supposedly a Christian nation, and at least some of us claim to be Christians, isn't there some value and altruistic value in spreading our great wealth to less affluent people, in other countries?
IOW, using our blessings to help those less fortunate?
But since this is supposedly a Christian nation, and at least some of us claim to be Christians, isn't there some value and altruistic value in spreading our great wealth to less affluent people, in other countries?
IOW, using our blessings to help those less fortunate?
Dieselbutterfly
Well-known member
but if we were allowed to i would
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RustFarmer
Well-known member
I would like to hear more about your Taiwan adjustable. How is it better than a Crescent, Diamond, J. P. Danielson, or Klein. I own and have used adjustable wrenches from all the above. I suspect you need to get better quality USA tools that have not been abused.
AZ_Catskinner
Well-known member
Sometimes when dealing with safety issues, it is best to just not take the risk. For example, we have banned ALL Chinese rigging and hardware on property due to some really crappy stuff that showed up years ago. We are talking 7/8" shackles that would deform if you dropped them and some 3/4" that would strip the threads as you tightened the pins. We also had some Chinese comealongs filter in that would just fail under a small fraction of the rated load. I had a 3/4 ton unit fail and drop a 75 pound liner block I was positioning with it. Another failure I was personally involved in was a 1½ tonner that had the fixed hook split into 3 pieces under the weight of a 5 gallon bucket full of 3/4" nuts.
Is it really fair? No. I'm sure that China IS capable of making decent stuff in the aforementioned categories. But the question is, why would anyone with the capability for rational thought risk getting people hurt or killed with substandard products?
Some of the Chinese tools ARE liable to get someone hurt. It is up to the end user to determine which are **** and which aren't prior to purchasing them.
kythri
Well-known member
I'm just amused at the constant goalpost shifting.
First, buying import anything (including tools) is horrible, because it hurts the US economy.
Then someone brings up electronics, and the first shift happens: Well, I'd buy US if I could, but I can't, so it's OK.
Y'know, there's an option - stop buying it, period. Don't buy a TV. Don't buy an iPad. Enough people do that, it might cause someone to open a manufacturing facility here (doubtful, but possible).
So, we've shifted - now it's OK to buy import stuff as long as it's not already produced here.
But then, someone points out that the anti-import crowd isn't actually anti-import, they're anti-Asian-import. They're just fine with buying German, Swiss, Spanish tools. Just not Asian tools.
So the goalpost shifts again. Now the argument isn't about US jobs, it's about quality of manufacture and working conditions - Asian manufacturers can't produce anything of quality, but the Euros can, so it's OK to import their stuff - and the Euros have better working conditions than the Asians, so that makes it OK too. (Never mind the fact that the manufacturing facilities in China (for example) are the best income in the country, and are contributing to the increasing quality of life and quality of working conditions across that country - the alternative being manual labor in coal mines or the like. Given time (just like the US was given), working conditions will improve to western standards.)
It's all chest-puffing nonsense. You can't argue your support of US jobs and manufacturing, but make exceptions for non-US jobs and non-US manufacturing when it suits you.
If you just don't like Asian tools, or just prefer US-made tools (or Euro imports, whatever), that's a perfectly valid opinion. Just don't try to justify it with excuses that invalidate your entire argument. You don't even NEED to justify your opinion.
First, buying import anything (including tools) is horrible, because it hurts the US economy.
Then someone brings up electronics, and the first shift happens: Well, I'd buy US if I could, but I can't, so it's OK.
Y'know, there's an option - stop buying it, period. Don't buy a TV. Don't buy an iPad. Enough people do that, it might cause someone to open a manufacturing facility here (doubtful, but possible).
So, we've shifted - now it's OK to buy import stuff as long as it's not already produced here.
But then, someone points out that the anti-import crowd isn't actually anti-import, they're anti-Asian-import. They're just fine with buying German, Swiss, Spanish tools. Just not Asian tools.
So the goalpost shifts again. Now the argument isn't about US jobs, it's about quality of manufacture and working conditions - Asian manufacturers can't produce anything of quality, but the Euros can, so it's OK to import their stuff - and the Euros have better working conditions than the Asians, so that makes it OK too. (Never mind the fact that the manufacturing facilities in China (for example) are the best income in the country, and are contributing to the increasing quality of life and quality of working conditions across that country - the alternative being manual labor in coal mines or the like. Given time (just like the US was given), working conditions will improve to western standards.)
It's all chest-puffing nonsense. You can't argue your support of US jobs and manufacturing, but make exceptions for non-US jobs and non-US manufacturing when it suits you.
If you just don't like Asian tools, or just prefer US-made tools (or Euro imports, whatever), that's a perfectly valid opinion. Just don't try to justify it with excuses that invalidate your entire argument. You don't even NEED to justify your opinion.
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kythri
Well-known member
So if you had a series of failures due to poorly-manufactured US-made rigging and hardware, would you ban all US-made rigging and hardware on property, or just that particular brand?
Mickey O
Well-known member
Wouldn't happen with US made rigging, years ago American workers had pride and wouldn't produce or let junk out the door, today companies in the US for the most part won't let junk out the door because of liability.
China doesn't care, they'll let junk out, they counterfeit US parts using the companies name and serial number and sell it with out a care in the world that lives may be lost. They put fake UL stickers on counterfeit electrical parts and products and could care less if a house with a family burns to the ground killing everyone. They use poisons in the making of children's toys, they've killed dozens of babies with their poison baby formula. But that's not what is important, what's really important is that their stuff is cheap and that's the only reason people buy it, it's not the supposed improved quality, it's not because they want to help the people in a third world communist country that supply weapons to our enemies and manipulates their currency, it's not because China manufacturer world leading products, it's because it's cheap, period. And anyone telling you otherwise is blowing smoke.
AZ_Catskinner
Well-known member
As Mickey O said, wouldn't ever happen. The USA stuff goes through VERY strict inspection and testing before it reaches the end user. If a US manufacturer started shipping out **** that didn't meet spec on the rigging cards and someone got a hangnail as a result, the manufacturer would be facing criminal liability and prison time so fast it'd make their heads spin. You cannot hold a Chinese outfit to the same level of accountability.
When you are dealing with lifting devices, lives are on the line - period. The Chinese manufacturers/government simply don't care. As long as they can undercut everyone on a bid, they get paid and walk away happy. The lives and safety of workers aren't an economics decision. My kids don't give a rat's *** about globalism - they care about me coming home in one piece.
Oh the ignorance
BrokewrenchLS1
Well-known member
Might want to hit Wikipedia up and see where Toyota is based.
I've always found the double standard on tools to be funny.
If it's made in the US, well ******** it, it's a good tool (regardless of whether it's a ************* or not). Unless it's Craftsman, and they just **** even though they make (made) tools in the US. The older it is, the better it is, too, even if the metallurgy is complete junk and it's more rust than steel and the ergonomics give you carpal tunnel after 10 minutes of use.
If it's from China or Taiwan, it's absolute junk! Unless it's Gearwrench, which is fine and is almost as good as Snap-on and a lot better than Craftsman, but only sometimes. Kobalt is ok and it's better than Craftsman, but only non-US Craftsman, and US Craftsman is (sometimes) better than GW, but it depends on whether it's cloudy out or not.
If it's from Germany, it's the best tool ever made and no one is allowed to even entertain the thought that it's not the best-built and best-designed tool in the world. Even though there are absolutely no restrictions on what is allowed to have a "Made in Germany" stamp on it. And even if the company is German but has their tools made other places (like China), they're better than US companies that have their tools made in other places (like China).
Then, if it's Snap-on, they could be made by one-armed dyslexic blind meth-heads and it would be better than anything else in the world, even those German tools, unless it's Hazet, because everyone knows Hazet is better than Snap-on. Most of the time. I think it's Wednesdays and Fridays that Snap-on is considered better, and Hazet gets the rest of the week, unless it's Snap-on with a US stamp on it, in which case they get Monday, too.
Having 25 Snap-on screwdrivers that are exactly the same - but with different color handles! - trumps having a useable set of various screwdrivers with - gasp! - different-colored handles! Unless it's Wiha, then it's ok, but it's still up in the air if Wiha can be counted because they really don't make much other than screwdrivers, except for their pliers, which are better than Snap-on's pliers on Tuesdays and Sundays.
And how one "feels" when using a tool is more important than if the tool actually gets the job done.
That's been my impressions on the general consensus when it comes to tools, averaged over the period of time I've been a member here.
kythri
Well-known member
That's not what I'm asking.
I'm asking, IF you had a series of failures of US-made product, would you be equally quick to ban the entire country of production or just the particular brand?
kythri
Well-known member
Again:
That's not what I'm asking.
I'm asking, IF you had a series of failures of US-made product, would you be equally quick to ban the entire country of production or just the particular brand?
Toyota oh yes they have assembly plants and supplier factories. They are a real American story. We should embrace and love them. Oh wait all the damn money goes back to china. They save money buy building their cars here,power is cheaper and more reliable.
kythri
Well-known member
Can you elucidate on how the money goes back to China? I'd be interested to know why China gets money when people buy a Toyota.
hifi_hokie
Well-known member
It's an economics decision here, it's just that unfortunately more people have to die over there than here before fixing the underlying problem becomes economical.
Well Toyota is a china company right? I haven't seen any bank statements but I would guess the money goes to china? Unless they loan it to us directly over here or buy our property with it before its transferred to CHINA.
I'm not a economics guy just one guy from Indiana who gets tired of hearing how wonderfull Toyota is. It's not that great- buy American. Sorry this has really taken away from the op.
I'm not a economics guy just one guy from Indiana who gets tired of hearing how wonderfull Toyota is. It's not that great- buy American. Sorry this has really taken away from the op.
kythri
Well-known member
Wrong. This is why people in this thread are mocking you.
BrokewrenchLS1
Well-known member
No, they're not remotely Chinese. And quite a few Toyota vehicles have more US-sourced parts (and more US-made vehicles) than domestic manufacturers.
AffableCurmudgeon
Well-known member
Just come out and admit it - There is an anti-China bias around here.
And at the same time, Walmart is doing great. Who is buying stuff from there: All these biased tool mongers.
Be consistent in your bias, people. Own your opinions, don't come up with irrational opinions to justify that you probably like old names and tools 'cause they remind you of what daddy used to have.
I will not convince those with biased opinions with this, but economically, regardless of country of origin, if a sale is made in the US, it ALWAYS has a positive impact on our US economy.
As an example, think about this:
When an American buys something at Harbor Freight, he is supporting these AMERICAN jobs:
1. Builders who built the store and the materials that went into constructing/buying/selling everything in the store; shelves, wiring, security systems, fixtures, light bulbs, cash registers, computer systems etc. etc.
2. Sales people and cashiers who work at the store
3. People who work at HF corporate
4. People that these employed people pay to buy goods and services from, who in turn support a brand new list of other American workers
5. Dock workers who unload freight from cargo ships, trucks, planes
6. Cargo and freight company employees
7. Oil refinery workers who fuel the cargo industry
8. Auditors, bankers, financiers, lawyers etc who put the business deals together
9. End users of the tools who use the tools to earn a living
10. Countless of other people who make their living by selling goods and services to all these people above. It is a cycle.
These are all REAL AMERICAN jobs being supported. Yes, this does not include some tool manufacturing jobs (does however include a LOT of other manufacturing jobs to support the jobs listed above) but those manufacturing jobs are not the ONLY jobs in America.
Don't say that ALL the money is going to China. Well, you can say it, but you will be wrong, just like the guy who thinks Toyota is a Chinese brand.
And at the same time, Walmart is doing great. Who is buying stuff from there: All these biased tool mongers.
Be consistent in your bias, people. Own your opinions, don't come up with irrational opinions to justify that you probably like old names and tools 'cause they remind you of what daddy used to have.
I will not convince those with biased opinions with this, but economically, regardless of country of origin, if a sale is made in the US, it ALWAYS has a positive impact on our US economy.
As an example, think about this:
When an American buys something at Harbor Freight, he is supporting these AMERICAN jobs:
1. Builders who built the store and the materials that went into constructing/buying/selling everything in the store; shelves, wiring, security systems, fixtures, light bulbs, cash registers, computer systems etc. etc.
2. Sales people and cashiers who work at the store
3. People who work at HF corporate
4. People that these employed people pay to buy goods and services from, who in turn support a brand new list of other American workers
5. Dock workers who unload freight from cargo ships, trucks, planes
6. Cargo and freight company employees
7. Oil refinery workers who fuel the cargo industry
8. Auditors, bankers, financiers, lawyers etc who put the business deals together
9. End users of the tools who use the tools to earn a living
10. Countless of other people who make their living by selling goods and services to all these people above. It is a cycle.
These are all REAL AMERICAN jobs being supported. Yes, this does not include some tool manufacturing jobs (does however include a LOT of other manufacturing jobs to support the jobs listed above) but those manufacturing jobs are not the ONLY jobs in America.
Don't say that ALL the money is going to China. Well, you can say it, but you will be wrong, just like the guy who thinks Toyota is a Chinese brand.
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RCStocker
Well-known member
Why? The quailty on the imports is pure **** on most items. Germany and Japan make great tools. Most are better than US made tools. The reall problem is that all the good American hand tools and power tools are going over seas and the quality has gone to hell!
That exists almost everywhere in the world, and this forum certainly is no stranger to the concept.
IndyGarage
Well-known member
I'd like for you to take another look. The quality on imports can be equal to the quality on made in America stuff- if the importer is willing to pay for quality.
For example - the computer you are using to look at this was likely made in china. The cell phone you carry was likely made in china. The TV you watched yesterday was probably made in China, and I bet they all work reliably.
In fact, as America loses it's ability and willingness to innovate - as Americans are turning into fat, lazy TV zombies who would rather call Ken Nunn (Ken is a real guy, I saw him driving his $350,000 Rolls Convertible the other day) the injury lawyer and have him sue the store they slipped and fell in, rather than get a job and make something useful. As we turn into that - the Chinese are graduating millions of engineers and scientists and yes their knowledge of manufacturing is greater than ours now - so they can build stuff better than we can.
How many US high school kids go to vocational school now? How many of them want to take shop class - if it still exists?
You want to revive American manufacturing, then we better start teaching our kids to watch junkyard wars, and turn off Survivor and American Chopper. But guess what? Junkyard wars lasted about 3 seasons, and Survivor has been on - what 12-13 years? American Chopper is almost as bad - soap opera for mechanics - with terrible acting. Those shows highlight scheming and conflict instead of collaboration and innovation.
RustFarmer
Well-known member
You forgot ....
lawyers who profit from familial discord
http://www.vcstar.com/news/2011/apr/05/harbor-freight-founder-settles-lawsuits/
art dealers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Elvises
crooked politicians
http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/2011/08/ticketgate_fabian_nunez_la_mayor_villaraigosa.php
BrokewrenchLS1
Well-known member
Oh, ********. Hazet is no better than Snap-on and Stahlwille no better than SK.
What makes a Chinese-made Bosch sander better than a Chinese-made Makita sander? Brand loyalty, that's about it.
Ha ha ha ha. You win.
When an American buys something at Harbor freight, they are primarily supporting a Communist dictatorship that punishes people for exercising their free speech rights, prohibits freedom of religion, and enslaves political opponents in re-education camps to make some of the imported Chinese garbage people buy. Everyone just glosses over the fact that China flies the yellow stars on a big red flag. That's not a system I accept. It has been well documented that forced labor and/or labor without ownership interests or reward results in some of the poorest production standards in the world.
Dieselbutterfly
Well-known member
^yes
AZ_Catskinner
Well-known member
I really have no background information to answer this, as it has NEVER happened. There have been a handful of non-lifting related USA products banned over the years, but nothing of a similar safety profile.
AZ_Catskinner
Well-known member
THANK GOD!!! I am not the only one who has noticed this pattern!!
kythri
Well-known member
So, you're dodging the question. Noted.
AZ_Catskinner
Well-known member
How in the hell is not having anything to base an answer off of considered "dodging the question"?
A lack of supporting information to formulate a realistic answer is exactly that - nothing more. One cannot realistically answer a question based solely in an imaginary scenario. Especially not a scenario which has been effectively rendered impossible through national as well as industrial standards for many years. Go get a few crane and rigging certifications and get back to me on just how asinine the question posed was to begin with.
You're just looking to stir the pot. Noted.
Dieselbutterfly
Well-known member
your whole premise is silly.it is harmful to the economy that is not debatable. if i say are you stupid or dumb,you must answer one or the other, or you are dodging the question.what would your answer be?
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