Is Lithonia Lighting tech support wrong or is it me?

[cyamaha2007]

I want to use these flush mount 8ft t8 fixtures. I was told that they would be " daisy chained" together. So i assume you would wire the first one into the building power then the fixtures internal wiring would provide the power to every one after the first. So i asked the tech support how many could be daisy chained together their answer was as many as the circuit would allow. So i said just to be clear, if i have a 100a lighting circuit and your fixtures pull .96amps i could put 75 in one continuous string. She then said no you could put 100 fixtures in one continuous string. I know this isnt right since i was told to never load a circuit to move than 75% of it capacity. Also how could a some crappy internal wiring support 75amps let alone the 100 amps she claims it will. I was thinking i would be like Christmas lights where they say no more than 6 stands plugged into each other. I would think the internal wiring would look like a toaster element with 100a being pulled through it. Any ideas Thanks Chuck heres the link http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-25e...ihtonia+lighting&storeId=10051#specifications

 

[walrus]

I want to use these flush mount 8ft t8 fixtures. I was told that they would be " daisy chained" together. So i assume you would wire the first one into the building power then the fixtures internal wiring would provide the power to every one after the first. So i asked the tech support how many could be daisy chained together their answer was as many as the circuit would allow. So i said just to be clear, if i have a 100a lighting circuit and your fixtures pull .96amps i could put 75 in one continuous string. She then said no you could put 100 fixtures in one continuous string. I know this isnt right since i was told to never load a circuit to move than 75% of it capacity. Also how could a some crappy internal wiring support 75amps let alone the 100 amps she claims it will. I was thinking i would be like Christmas lights where they say no more than 6 stands plugged into each other. I would think the internal wiring would look like a toaster element with 100a being pulled through it. Any ideas Thanks Chuck heres the link http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-25e...ihtonia+lighting&storeId=10051#specifications

Lighting is considered a continuous load, so it can be loaded to 80%. The internal wiring of the lights runs each individual unit but the installer has to put in feeders to supply power to each light. The feeders get spliced and run into each fixture. If you were doing a 100 amp circuit you be using #3 copper into the first fixture all the way to the last fixture.

 

[cyamaha2007]

thank you that make sense. Is there a better way to interrupt the feeder line than wire nuts. I will be doing this on a 20a circuit. I assume i should use stranded wire for the feeder?

 

[walrus]

thank you that make sense. Is there a better way to interrupt the feeder line than wire nuts. I will be doing this on a 20a circuit. I assume i should use stranded wire for the feeder?

Might be a better way than wire nuts but its a standard practice. Properly made wire nut connections will be fine. Use stranded or solid, both are used every day. I prefer stranded but.... How many lights are you going to put on a 20 amp circuit?

 

[cyamaha2007]

I have a ton of stranded so ill use that. im going to put 12 on each circuit. I want some flex if i add more. Would you suggest a 15 a circuit? Is there a certain type of stranded wire to use. Ive never used stranded for a/c. Im new to this. I bought a huge lot of stranded from my employer during 5s. It was " cheaper for them to order new" instead of using what we had. about 40, 1000ft rolls of various gauge almost all still in the plastic. Is soldering a connection like this ok if heat shrink is used? Thank you so much for your help

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Soldering is not a legal method of joining wires per the NEC.

What kind of wire do you have? Does it have the proper ratings and markings on it? ie: is it designed to be used on AC building electrical systems.... THHN or THWN would be desirable. I seem to recall it has to have at least a minimum of 600v rating on it. Too lazy to look at the code tonight.

Charles

 

[jbberns]

They connect end to end to make a raceway. Then you pull your wires through them and connect to each light.
This is what I would use.
http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediaw...5XfyEVU6EVs6EVs6EVs6E666666--&boundedSize=310
3m scotch lock t tap.

There is a reason the tech support is on the phone in a cubical and not in the field.

 

[cyamaha2007]

IT is a mix of "thhn or mtw or thwn-2 or griivw-1or awm or c(ul) type 290 nylon or twn 75 fti or thhw" and some wire is labled as "mtw or tw or awm" It is all rated to 600 volts. Most spools are labeled UL machine tool wire. Basically its those two types but seemed to be labeled for lots of uses. Sorry its a little confusing.

 

[cyamaha2007]

jbberns with that fitting i would use 3 continuous wires through the raceway and those would "tap" the wire through the insulation? Just wondering ive seen something like that for dc apps.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Lighting is considered a continuous load, so it can be loaded to 80%.

Just a clarification. Commercial lighting is almost always considered a continuous load. Lighting in a residential setting almost never is.


The whole blanket statement "only load a circuit to 80%" is a myth long perpetuated by folks not familiar with the real and correct codes.

 

[Speedy Petey]

These are the taps you can use for #12 feeding through strip fixtures with a #18 ballast lead:
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=90F6225&CMP=AFC-GB100000001

 

[ra42mario]

A 100a circuit is fine... but man its going to be a pain in the **** putting wire nuts on all of those connectors using #3 wire.

I used some of the push in connectors for 12g wire not to long ago.... SO much faster and probably a better connection. Unfortunately I don't think they have something like that available for your application.

 

[jbberns]

These are the taps you can use for #12 feeding through strip fixtures with a #18 ballast lead:
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=90F6225&CMP=AFC-GB100000001

My mistake. The one I showed was to tap off with a #12.

 

[jbberns]

A 100a circuit is fine... but man its going to be a pain in the **** putting wire nuts on all of those connectors using #3 wire.

I used some of the push in connectors for 12g wire not to long ago.... SO much faster and probably a better connection. Unfortunately I don't think they have something like that available for your application.

100 amp lighting circuit was just for illustration purposes. Read the before you comment.

 

[walrus]

Just a clarification. Commercial lighting is almost always considered a continuous load. Lighting in a residential setting almost never is.


The whole blanket statement "only load a circuit to 80%" is a myth long perpetuated by folks not familiar with the real and correct codes.

Almost never is? Nice qualification. Shop lights will be on more than 3 hours at a time, continuous load if I'm wiring them, in a commercial setting or a residential setting.

 

[cyamaha2007]

Yes i would say my lights will be on for a 3 hour time frame or more. Thanks for the replys.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Almost never is? Nice qualification. Shop lights will be on more than 3 hours at a time, continuous load if I'm wiring them, in a commercial setting or a residential setting.

Nice qualification? I don't get it.

IMO even residential "shop lights" would rarely be EXPECTED to run for 3 hours or more. Expected being the key word in this whole discussion.

It's a judgement call, but I stand by my assertion that MOST residential lighting is NOT a continuous load.
Things like outdoor security lights would be, but not much else. THAT is what I mean by "almost never".
Just because the kids might forget to turn off the basement lights overnight does not make them a continuous load.

 

[Aceman]

Nice qualification? I don't get it.

IMO even residential "shop lights" would rarely be EXPECTED to run for 3 hours or more. Expected being the key word in this whole discussion.

It's a judgement call, but I stand by my assertion that MOST residential lighting is NOT a continuous load.
Things like outdoor security lights would be, but not much else. THAT is what I mean by "almost never".
Just because the kids might forget to turn off the basement lights overnight does not make them a continuous load.

Do you load your lighting circuits right up to 100% then?

 

[Speedy Petey]

Do you load your lighting circuits right up to 100% then?

Rarely, depends on the circuit. You'd need to specifically define "up to 100%".

The blanket statement "Lighting is considered a continuous load, so it can be loaded to 80%." is incorrect as it stands. That was my only point.

My point is about code correctness, not how I personally wire things.

 

[Aceman]

Rarely, depends on the circuit. You'd need to specifically define "up to 100%".

The blanket statement "Lighting is considered a continuous load, so it can be loaded to 80%." is incorrect as it stands. That was my only point.

My point is about code correctness, not how I personally wire things.

I need to define 100%? Really?

I think I'll pass and leave you to debating with the other forum members whether 80% is really the right way to do it or not.

 

[automobiliben]

These are the taps you can use for #12 feeding through strip fixtures with a #18 ballast lead:
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=90F6225&CMP=AFC-GB100000001

So does this allow you to make your "feeder lines" continuous? Do you happen to have a picture in application?

I am about to do the same thing, never seen these connectors. I just used wire nuts in my current shop...

Do these lights bolt end to end or how have people been connecting them to each other?

 

[Speedy Petey]

I guess I have to pick my arguments a bit more carefully around here.
I was talking about codes, not opinions.

I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Speedy Petey]

So does this allow you to make your "feeder lines" continuous? Do you happen to have a picture in application?

Yes. And no I don't, sorry.

If you notice one side is larger than the other, so the #12 can remain continuous through the lights and the #18 ballast lead can be tapped off.

I have to say, I only use these when there are a LOT of fixtures (like 50 to 100, or more) and time is of the essence. They are definitely more expensive than wire nuts, but are a great time saver.

 

[automobiliben]

Yes. And no I don't, sorry.

If you notice one side is larger than the other, so the #12 can remain continuous through the lights and the #18 ballast lead can be tapped off.

I have to say, I only use these when there are a LOT of fixtures (like 50 to 100, or more) and time is of the essence. They are definitely more expensive than wire nuts, but are a great time saver.

Thanks, I will probably just go with wire nuts, I only have 12 to install...

 

[SuperSocket]

Keep in mind, you still need a light switch, which may limit the load you can place on that circuit.

 

[walrus]

I guess I have to pick my arguments a bit more carefully around here.
I was talking about codes, not opinions.

I'll just leave it at that.

Does the code differentiate between Residential and Commercial as far as Continuous is concerned? Is there a different standard for one or the other?

 

[Speedy Petey]

Does the code differentiate between Residential and Commercial as far as Continuous is concerned? Is there a different standard for one or the other?

The code does not, but common sense does.

Most all "commercial" or "industrial" lighting would definitely be considered a continuous load because it fits the NEC definition of "continuous load", whereas most residential lighting does not.
There is very little in a residence that would is considered a continuous load, outside those items that are required to be considered one, such as an electric water heater or fixed electric heat.

 

[walrus]

The code does not, but common sense does.
.

Didn't you say you were talking code and not opinions?

 

[Speedy Petey]

Didn't you say you were talking code and not opinions?

Now you're playing games.
You must be a lawyer, or a lobbyist.

You asked a specific question and I answered it.

No, CODE does not "differentiate between Residential and Commercial as far as Continuous is concerned"? This is where we use common sense to interpret the actual code. The second part of my last reply was how I interpret the code. If you interpret it differently that is fine.

Just exactly what are looking for from me?

 

[Gooman24]

Now you're playing games.
You must be a lawyer, or a lobbyist.

You asked a specific question and I answered it.

No, CODE does not "differentiate between Residential and Commercial as far as Continuous is concerned"? This is where we use common sense to interpret the actual code. The second part of my last reply was how I interpret the code. If you interpret it differently that is fine.

Just exactly what are looking for from me?

Thanks for the info Speedy. I spend a lot of time reading the electrical forum here and have learned a lot from you guys.

 

[cyamaha2007]

Thanks for all the replies. Does anyone have a opinion on the 12g stranded wire i have and intend to use?

 

[automobiliben]

Thanks for all the replies. Does anyone have a opinion on the 12g stranded wire i have and intend to use?

Do you have conduit? Solid wire is much easier to fish through the conduit if you do.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

 

[cyamaha2007]

my plan was to use the light fixtures tied together as conduit. Then daisy chain them together.

 

[-JP]

Thanks for all the replies. Does anyone have a opinion on the 12g stranded wire i have and intend to use?

Of all the conductor types you listed, type THWN-2 is the one you want to use.

JP

 

[automobiliben]

cyamaha2007,

Did you ever get the lights installed? I am about to embark on my install. The lights aren't flat on the back side, what did you to get around this? Also, did you bolt the lights to each other and/or use a conduit ****** between them to fish the wires?

Thanks!

 

[cyamaha2007]

Im using the fixtures on metal liner panel. The ribs allow for the dimples to sit between them. So my application caused no interference. Also i think dimples allow for airflow to cool the ballast so if mounting on dry wall i would let the dimples sit flush with the surface and snug up the screws. The lights will be tight to each other in a row. Im going to use a plastic sleeve as a abrasion guard between the fixtures. We have some odd sizes of plastic tubing at work.

 

[ForceFed70]

thank you that make sense. Is there a better way to interrupt the feeder line than wire nuts. I will be doing this on a 20a circuit. I assume i should use stranded wire for the feeder?

The other guys have pretty much answered your question. The fixtures essentially become a raceway/conduit and thus it does not matter how many are daisy chained.

Just wanted to comment about your plans for a 20A lighting circuit. You may want to check with your inspector on that one. I also planned on doing a 20A lighting circuit but was told that code says 15A max for a lighting circuit in a residential application (commercial you can go higher).

I ended up going with 2x15A circuits.

 

[Norcal]

These are the taps you can use for #12 feeding through strip fixtures with a #18 ballast lead:
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=90F6225&CMP=AFC-GB100000001

I like them for a new install, don't really care to come back to them for ballast changes, because I don't like to splice the tap, just my opinion. New fixtures do come w/ ballast disconnects so that is in most cases a moot point & I think the 2011 NEC requires them to be used when servicing existing ones, but since on the '08 not sure about that one.

Edit:
410.30(G)(1) does require it in other then residential & assoc. structures.

(G) Disconnecting Means.
(1) General. In indoor locations other than dwellings and
associated accessory structures, fluorescent luminaires that utilize
double-ended lamps and contain ballast(s) that can be
serviced in place shall have a disconnecting means either internal
or external to each luminaire. For existing installed luminaires
without disconnecting means, at the time a ballast is
replaced, a disconnecting means shall be installed. The line
side terminals of the disconnecting means shall be guarded.
Exception No. 1: A disconnecting means shall not be required
for luminaires installed in hazardous (classified)
location(s).
Exception No. 2: A disconnecting means shall not be required
for emergency illumination required in 700.16.
Exception No. 3: For cord-and-plug-connected luminaires,
an accessible separable connector or an accessible
plug and receptacle shall be permitted to serve as the disconnecting
means.
Exception No. 4: A disconnecting means shall not be required
in industrial establishments with restricted public
access where conditions of maintenance and supervision
ensure that only qualified persons service the installation
by written procedures.
Exception No. 5: Where more than one luminaire is installed
and supplied by other than a multiwire branch circuit,
a disconnecting means shall not be required for every
luminaire when the design of the installation includes disconnecting
means, such that the illuminated space cannot
be left in total darkness.
(2) Multiwire Branch Circuits. When connected to multiwire
branch circuits, the disconnecting means shall simultaneously
break all the supply conductors to the ballast,
including the grounded conductor.
(3) Location. The disconnecting means shall be located so
as to be accessible to qualified persons before servicing or
maintaining the ballast. Where the disconnecting means is
external to the luminaire, it shall be a single device, and
shall be attached to the luminaire or the luminaire shall be
located within sight of the disconnecting means.

2011 NEC

Since most folks here are wiring home shops, this is not required but I have come to like the ballast disconnects, but that is just my opinion again.

 

[cyamaha2007]

Thanks for all the input.