Is my subpanel code legal? (Yes, inspected)

[reader2580]

An electrician friend of mine thinks my garage subpanel is against code. It was installed in early to mid 2017 and has been inspected, twice. I recall it was inspected once under 2014 code and once under 2017 code.

I installed a 200 amp main lug panel in the garage with four wire feed, no bond, and grounds/neutrals separated. It is fed by a 70 amp breaker in the main panel in the house. The wires for the feed are 3 AWG copper. The garage subpanel has a 70 amp breaker installed as the main breaker with the proper hold down kit.

My electrician friend claims because I have a 200 amp panel in the garage that I must have a 200 amp feed to the panel because it has a 200 amp bus. He says it is a code violation. I disagree because I have installed a 70 amp breaker at each end with appropriate wire and it has been inspected. Is this a code violation, or is my electrician friend smoking something funny?

 

[ROBZ71LM7]

He's smoking something funny.

 

[alfredeneuman]

My electrician friend claims because I have a 200 amp panel in the garage that I must have a 200 amp feed to the panel because it has a 200 amp bus.

You're electrician friend is wrong, no matter what he is smoking.
There is no such rule and the 200 amp breaker, in this case, only serves as a disconnect

 

[reader2580]

It is not a main breaker panel so there is no 200 amp main breaker. I installed a regular 70 amp breaker as the main breaker along with the required hold down kit.

I really thought he was smoking something funny when he said that. He has been a licensed electrician for many years yet he claims stuff is wrong or against code that is actually correct. He has been doing solar almost as long as he has had an electrical license, but he keeps claiming the inspector is wrong about solar and what is code or not. He is a stickler about most code stuff, but some code stuff he just ignores. (Nothing unsafe really, but he ignores some code required stuff.)

I am getting someone else to help with my solar design.

 

[Innovate1]

You're electrician friend is wrong, no matter what he is smoking.
There is no such rule and the 200 amp breaker, in this case, only serves as a disconnect

The electrician is wrong. Might want to make a mental note of that in case he gives you advice in the future so you can not take it too seriously. This is pretty basic stuff that should be clear to someone who is an electrician.

But Alfred must have missed that this is a main lug panel. There is no 200A breaker (at least from what was described) and the 70A acts as the disconnect. Often panels with main breakers are used as subpanels even thought the main breaker is larger than the feeding breaker. In your case a panel with a 100A main breaker could have been used and would be fine. The 70A breaker in the main panel is what provides over current protection.

 

[strutaeng]

Time to find another friend! LOL

 

[reader2580]

This guy helped me with the design of my initial solar array. That solar array has now been dismantled due to pending replacement of my garage.

He told me to put a 200 amp panel in the garage which I did. He never said to actually install 200 amp service to that panel. He got pissed when he found out I only installed a 70 amp feed from my house to the garage. He said if I was an actual electrician I would have known he meant I should install a 200 amp panel with a 200 amp feed to the panel. No, if I was a real electrician I would have questioned why to install a 200 amp feed to a two car garage that gets by fine on 70 amps.

I wouldn't have even known how to run 200 amps to the garage with only a 200 amp main panel in the house and a 200 amp meter. They don't make 200 amp breakers for my panel and I probably would have had too much load for the 200 amp bus anyhow and would have tripped the main if I tried to use 200 amps in the garage.

He said that hooking up my solar would have been much easier if I had installed a 200 amp feed to my garage. He never explained why. He couldn't feed my solar through my main panel no matter what wire size. He would have had to install a line side tap to be legal no matter if I put in a 70 amp or a 200 amp feed. I still don't know why a 200 amp feed would have helped with the solar install.

Yes, the solar install he did for me passed inspection.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It is not a main breaker panel so there is no 200 amp main breaker. I installed a regular 70 amp breaker as the main breaker along with the required hold down kit.

I really thought he was smoking something funny when he said that. He has been a licensed electrician for many years yet he claims stuff is wrong or against code that is actually correct. He has been doing solar almost as long as he has had an electrical license, but he keeps claiming the inspector is wrong about solar and what is code or not. He is a stickler about most code stuff, but some code stuff he just ignores. (Nothing unsafe really, but he ignores some code required stuff.)

I am getting someone else to help with my solar design.

you'd be surprised how much stuff "licensed" contractors dont know, get wrong, install wrong, or screw up.

i used to work for a "licensed" electrician who didnt know the difference between neutral and ground and why both were ran for a feeder because "they both terminate on the same bar in the main"

i had to edumacate him on that one...

 

[klassenl]

He is a stickler about most code stuff, but some code stuff he just ignores. (Nothing unsafe really, but he ignores some code required stuff.)

Every tradesman in the world is this.

 

[sberry]

Proves you don't need to know all the right answers to pass a test. It's kind of a flaw in the process. In theory the guy has been trained and vetted that he knows these critical things.

 

[Norcal]

Ask where in the Urban Legend Code is this assertion.

 

[andyvh1959]

This explains Neutral and Ground well:
https://mrec.org/files/2014/03/UnderstandingNeutral-vs-Ground.Priestley.Handout.2014.pdf

Decades ago a coworker came in to work late, looking weary. I asked what's up, and Steve said he got no sleep. Before going to bed he noticed the outdoor light on the garage was on, so he went out to turn it off. The light stayed on. At the back door of the house he flipped the switch, the light stayed on. He said he was up all night worrying about it, called a contractor to come inspect had to wait for him to show up.

Without more details I said "you have an in ground problem at the house wall where the cable goes out to the garage. Must not be in conduit. The frost heaving of winters have flexed/failed the cable and now it has the hot feeding through the ground which would bypass any switch." You need an electrician and start digging.

Steve said, "that's what the electrician said!" So, knowing a little about wiring gave me a clue of what to diagnose. But also in Wisconsin its better to use conduit than direct burial cable. Could also have been whoever wired the garage didn't bury the cable deep enough, didn't use the right kind of cable, and/or didn't use any form of cable protection where it came through the foundation wall.

 

[Zeke]

It is not a main breaker panel so there is no 200 amp main breaker. I installed a regular 70 amp breaker as the main breaker along with the required hold down kit.

I really thought he was smoking something funny when he said that. He has been a licensed electrician for many years yet he claims stuff is wrong or against code that is actually correct. He has been doing solar almost as long as he has had an electrical license, but he keeps claiming the inspector is wrong about solar and what is code or not. He is a stickler about most code stuff, but some code stuff he just ignores. (Nothing unsafe really, but he ignores some code required stuff.)

I am getting someone else to help with my solar design.

If the panel came with a 200 A breaker you could have saved some money by using it and not buying a new 70 A breaker. If not, all is well.

 

[Tduby]

If the panel came with a 200 A breaker you could have saved some money by using it and not buying a new 70 A breaker. If not, all is well.

I’m surprised he found a 200 amp sub panel cheaper seems like main panels are a few bucks less at the big box stores.

 

[nadogail]

Several things come to mind; the first one is that if the inspector says it is good, it's good.

Another is, We don't always know what it is that we don't know.

Still another is; Sometimes it is better to remain silent and be thought an idiot, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

 

[reader2580]

Removed as being incorrect.

 

[Norcal]

It wouldn’t be legal to use a 200 amp breaker since I only have 3 AWG wire feeding the panel. A panel with the number of spaces I have needs a main breaker.

I wasn’t really sure why the electrician wanted me to install a 200 amp panel. I thought maybe it had to do with bus bar capacity for my solar.

It would have been fine, as long as it was properly protected at the other end.

 

[teamextreme]

It wouldn’t be legal to use a 200 amp breaker since I only have 3 AWG wire feeding the panel.

That's part of the urban myth code book that is all too commonly believed. The main in your subpanel only acts as a disconnect switch for the panel. Your wires feeding the subpanel are protected by the breaker in you main panel, in your case 100A rated wire protected by a 70A breaker. I installed a similar setup at my dad's place and a house inspector flagged it as a problem when he sold the place. He had to hire an electrician to certify that there was no issue with it having a main breaker in the sub with a larger ampacity than the feeder breaker.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It wouldn’t be legal to use a 200 amp breaker since I only have 3 AWG wire feeding the panel. A panel with the number of spaces I have needs a main breaker.

I wasn’t really sure why the electrician wanted me to install a 200 amp panel. I thought maybe it had to do with bus bar capacity for my solar.

totally false. 200a breaker is not acting as an OCPD, the main 70a breaker is. 200a breaker only acts as a disconnect.

 

[reader2580]

totally false. 200a breaker is not acting as an OCPD, the main 70a breaker is. 200a breaker only acts as a disconnect.

I removed my post. I apparently was/am completely confused then.

408.36 states a panelboard must have an overcurrent protection device. However, it also states the OCPD can be at any point on the supply side. It appears that 408.36 means that the breaker in the panelboard in the house can be the OCPD for the panelboard in my garage.

225.31 states a disconnecting means must be supplied, and 225.32 states the disconnecting means must be located inside or outside at a readily accessible nearest the point of entrance of the conductors.

225.33 is the rule always stated that a subpanel can't have more than six breakers without a separate disconnect.

I'm not an electrician so don't do any electrical work based on what I am about to write. I spent an hour or so this morning reading the actual NEC and other sources. It appears you only need a disconnecting means for a subpanel with over six breakers, but not an OCPD at the subpanel. It appears that technically a 200 amp main breaker could be used as a disconnecting means as long as a separate OCPD is on the supply.

In practical terms I wouldn't want to use a 200 amp main breaker as a disconnect if the supply is not 200 amps. A future owner might look at the garage subpanel, see a 200 amp main breaker, and assume the garage has 200 amp service.

 

[Bad Habit]

To say nothing of the expense. A 200amp breaker is much more expensive than a 70amp, especially as it would be a larger frame size.

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[Will S.]

In practical terms I wouldn't want to use a 200 amp main breaker as a disconnect if the supply is not 200 amps. A future owner might look at the garage subpanel, see a 200 amp main breaker, and assume the garage has 200 amp service.

It could (should?) be re-labelled as MAIN DISCONNECT

 

[reader2580]

To say nothing of the expense. A 200amp breaker is much more expensive than a 70amp, especially as it would be a larger frame size.

A Siemens main breaker panel with 200 amp main breaker is about $25 more expensive than a main lug panel. Coincidentally, a 70 amp breaker is about $25 right now, so it is a wash. I paid about $39 for my 70 amp breaker back in 2017.

I replaced my 200 amp main panel two weeks ago because I needed to separate the neutrals and grounds due to addition of a service disconnect breaker outside. I found an unused Siemens PL copper bus panel with 200 amp main breaker for $70 at a local liquidator. The manufacture date was less than six months previous.

 

[Innovate1]

A Siemens main breaker panel with 200 amp main breaker is about $25 more expensive than a main lug panel. Coincidentally, a 70 amp breaker is about $25 right now, so it is a wash. I paid about $39 for my 70 amp breaker back in 2017.

I replaced my 200 amp main panel two weeks ago because I needed to separate the neutrals and grounds due to addition of a service disconnect breaker outside. I found an unused Siemens PL copper bus panel with 200 amp main breaker for $70 at a local liquidator. The manufacture date was less than six months previous.

Why did you replace the panel when you could have just added ground bars and removed the neutral bonding screw?

 

[reader2580]

Why did you replace the panel when you could have just added ground bars and removed the neutral bonding screw?

A variety of reasons to do a new panel. No duct seal had been used so condensation had gotten in and there was actually rust on the main breaker. The panel was from 1980 and I wasn't sure that new Siemens ground bars would fit. I probably would have had to pull out every cable and rerun it to properly separate ground and neutrals. There didn't seem to be much labor savings old vs new.

My old panel with ITE Gould which was purchased by Siemens. I had already upgraded most everything to Siemens AFCI breakers due to a major remodel. I got the new panel for only $80 including tax so I didn't spend much money.