Is rebuilding a crime ?

[AJ1978]

Seems like certain equipment dealers or vendors better put frown upon rebuilding of vintage or older equipment!
On my current air compressor rebuild project a well known dealer distributor has once again left me with a SOUR taste!
I called asking for some information and parts explaining I am replacing tank etc and first thing is, well for 2550.00 I can sell you a brand new gas driven unit with a Honda engine!

Ok so even if I spend 1000.00 with new tank rebuild plumbing etc I am still 1500 ahead!

The same vendor while specializing in rebuilding older Kellogg 331 heads tried selling me a new unit as I asked to rebuild head!

How many others have ran into this??

I feel like it's a crime when they start their sales speech!

 

[The Cobbler]

they know sales, they don't understand the small percentage of people that like to repair things for nostalgia

 

[AJ1978]

It was the final draw that I had with them! I need them to rebuild my 331 head but that will be it! My family over 50 years bought at least 8 compressors from them and ample parts!

It's such a turn off

 

[ducksface]

It's their job.
Let them do it.

A polite (I assume you were polite)
No
Seems to have served you just fine.

I would appreciate someome telling me if they had a closeout or special or returned item.

 

[Matt Matt]

I almost rebuild everything. Sometimes I lose my shirt and sometimes, I get to buy 2 new shirts.

I generally like to sell new as a profit is already built in.

When I do repair jobs, vendors don't like it too much, when I start reproducing some of their product.

 

[454ragtop]

Should just rebuild the head yourself, it's not hard. https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=333731

 

[sberry]

People do not want to pay the rates for rebuilds. Secondly, there are a lot of problems with them, not always sure its put together right. Once some of this leaves the factory and gets worked on its never the same.

 

[IndyGarage]

I wouldn't feel bad about them trying to sell you a new one. That's how they make money.

Folks that buy a few dollars in parts once in awhile are not very profitable customers.

Of course if you are rebuilding stuff on the cheap - I do it all the time - then you have to understand you are the bottom of the barrel customer, and just take it in stride.

 

[Heavy Metal Doctor]

As the guy presenting the service / repair / parts to the customer, I can tell you experience has taught me that about 75% of the time rebuilding components / assembies is a giant waste of time. If not for down time, then for contingencies that arise mid-repair that frustrate all involved.

I'll admit that, from a consumer / private user point of view, rebuild of that 2200 item may ony cost 1000 in parts, so it DOES make sense for that situation / that individual. But as a whole, even customers who are capable of any work / repair functions, people usually don't want the down time involved...."for just xxxx above the cost of those parts I can deliver you and brand new xxxx tomorrow".

Now if you factor in my labor in to a repair if it's done in my shop, then replacement over rebuild factor goes up to about 98% of the time.

Edit: Side note to this: We get better discounts (make more moeny ) on parts over complete components / assemblies....so the push for selling the whole unit is not motivated by money. I can sell 4K in pump parts and make as much as selling the whole pump for 10K.

 

[sberry]

I do a lot of this. I have had my share of losers. I try to remember that the last guy that had it apart may not have put it together right. We put a gearbox together wrong, had a sticker on it, did it anyway, guh, took 4 tries and not everyone will go back and do it again especially if it seems to work.
Not every repair is a rebuild, one of the reasons I really don't do it with air tools. 100$ in parts, I got to fix it anyway and put it in a worn housing, can replace it with new for 200.
I do a lot especially when I can fix well for nothing and get it right, get it back fast or make rate for my time doing it.

 

[sberry]

As mentioned in the post above mine a lot of rebuild is a waste of time. I will fix something wrong with a starter or alternator I need but I don't rebuild them. We fixed a voltage regulator the other day. It could be replaced for 20$ but the delay would have added cost plus change out and I charged 20 to get it working.
We worked a couple man days on a tractor and used some fresh gas and a piece of fuel line. We took it all apart, used a cutting torch to heat tops and loosen the pistons, wheel the rust out, knock it loose and the same head gasket, some minor silicone work had been done poorly at some other time.
I ground the face of one valve, cleaned it with power tooling and glued back together. Every system on it broke or clogged. I think I took the fuel tank right off. Good think we didn't eventually get it unstuck before we got it to turn over, it gave us the chance to clean the rust out before rotating it all over it.
I didn't remove the pistons, we got it working, ground a valve that wasn't going to seal no how no way pressure washed the head gasket which was not oem and put it back together, started right up, rings must be good ha. It didn't smoke.
I didn't pull the pan off, I got it running and the owner came and changed the oil.

 

[finn]

Heavy Metal has the answer right.

I've come to the conclusion that if I buy used tools, compressors, etc, they in fact become projects in themselves instead of equipment to work on my projects with.

It's just not economically viable to salvage and refurbish old, worn out junk, unless you understand that this is, in fact, your hobby project.

I hear a lot of moaning that our consumer goods have become disposable, but in the end, I don't think that's a bad thing, as technology is constantly changing, and for the better.

 

[pi_guy]

Depends on what you work on.
Some old things like Hewland gearboxes.
Depending on who has worked on your box you might have a better one than what came out of the factory. There have been many factory upgrades and service notes and several racer mods that make a diff.
Every new race car or any used ones were disassembled and rebuilt the new ones the hardware was changed the factory used what ever was in the bin.
So depending on what you do vintage restorations can be very profitable.
I just sold a used case for 3k a few weeks ago. Nothing in case no bearing no studs.

 

[-Brent-]

Rebuilding is cost effective when you're talking about equipment that is far more expensive. If the rebuild cost is half of a new part, most pros will be of the mindset of Heavy Metal.

When I repaired commercial laundry equipment we'd see people dump money into equipment they could replaced rather than have us come back out for another repair but when the machine is 25k (and there's 10 of them) they'll put a grand+ into them here and there, gladly.

 

[sberry]

Just finished a pickup repair, good Bud rate of 200 for 3 hrs. No parts. I would had charged another hour if he had left it here and picked it later but did while he waited.
But as to rebuilding, I used to do it more and consider the whole cost today based on the life of the unit. Lots of stuff people think must be rebuilt can be fixed. I did buy a carb needle for a small engine a while back but havnt bought a carb kit for decades despite servicing a hundred or so with the exception of some golf cart stuff as I have a lot of it.

 

[honcho]

No, rebuilding is not a crime. However, every item has a different economic equation and some of the responses have pointed out some of the many different types of situations folks encounter rebuilding equipment.

In a former life, we generally used the rule of thumb that rebuilding would cost 50 percent of new and give you 75 percent service life of a new piece of equipment. It's not a perfect equation but it's a starting point.

There are also other issues to consider when you choose to rebuild equipment. Sometimes the new stuff isn't completely compatible with the old stuff. In some places, taxes on new equipment or grandfathered emissions compliance impact rebuilding decisions.

I dislike our throw away culture but, in many cases, it's hard to deny the economics of replace vs. repair/rebuild.

 

[Stooge]

* Not aiming this at the OP* Maybe the guy behind the counter has enough experience to realize a lot of people are ignorant/ stupid. How many times have we all heard someone who doesn't "tinker" innocently ask, well cant I just fix 'THING A' without knowing the whole sequence or assembly, or whats involved time and money wise, only to just go and start buying bits. I'm sure the guy behind the counter has been through it enough times of a customer coming in buying what they think they need, only to return cranky and agitated, badmouthing them because they bought the wrong widget, or more likely, "you sold me the wrong widget/ something I didn't need/ didn't fit' etc.

 

[Heavy Metal Doctor]

* Not aiming this at the OP* Maybe the guy behind the counter has enough experience to realize a lot of people are ignorant/ stupid. How many times have we all heard someone who doesn't "tinker" innocently ask, well cant I just fix 'THING A' without knowing the whole sequence or assembly, or whats involved time and money wise, only to just go and start buying bits. I'm sure the guy behind the counter has been through it enough times of a customer coming in buying what they think they need, only to return cranky and agitated, badmouthing them because they bought the wrong widget, or more likely, "you sold me the wrong widget/ something I didn't need/ didn't fit' etc.

I was thinking of posting something to that effect. Our biggest nightmare in our equipment is when Joe the (insert any average construction trade name) buys an old used specialty machine and tries to put it back into good working order. They have comments along the lines of "I got it for pennies at a Gov't auction! I just need to fix xxxxxx and I can get a contract working it for xxxxx making big money" and he thinks thinks he's gonna go actaully do that specialty work....6 months later he's crying about what a money pit it is and how he got thrown off the job becuase it won't work a full day without breaking down......we recently had one ****** buy a part for an antique rusted out POS machine that's not fit for anything but a scrap heap, butcher that part up with a torch trying to make it fit 'cause "I HAD to try and get the job done!", and then demand a full refund when that was not possible / didn't work out....

 

[stercorarius]

What they said and the fact that 8 compressors over 50 years isn't a lot of business. I'm not saying they are right in trying to upsell some new compressor necessarily. To most dealers, if you aren't a commercial account you aren't prime business.

Sent from my S60 using Tapatalk

 

[ffast65]

see this point often.... economics and low percieved risk drive many poor desicions... Lots of "fixers" are truly parts replacers---ie junk that was cheap when you bought it is still junk after its "fixed" but doesnt work properly.

And if you look at the cost of your time, was it really worth that?


also, retailers with the giving return policy are making it hard for parts to not have the same mentality.

 

[BikerDad]

When it comes to rebuilding, consider everything you're planning on rebuilding as being equivalent to a vehicle with a salvage title. Even if the end result is pristine, it's still "rebuilt." So unless it's either got classic/collectible value, is absolutely job critical/irreplaceable, or one likes farting around with old machinery/tools, rebuilding rarely makes economic sense. (Note: the value of farting around as a matter of preference is priceless, and hence highly resistant/immune to economic sense)

 

[crewchief888]

As the guy presenting the service / repair / parts to the customer, I can tell you experience has taught me that about 75% of the time rebuilding components / assembies is a giant waste of time. If not for down time, then for contingencies that arise mid-repair that frustrate all involved.

I'll admit that, from a consumer / private user point of view, rebuild of that 2200 item may ony cost 1000 in parts, so it DOES make sense for that situation / that individual. But as a whole, even customers who are capable of any work / repair functions, people usually don't want the down time involved...."for just xxxx above the cost of those parts I can deliver you and brand new xxxx tomorrow".

Now if you factor in my labor in to a repair if it's done in my shop, then replacement over rebuild factor goes up to about 98% of the time.

Edit: Side note to this: We get better discounts (make more moeny ) on parts over complete components / assemblies....so the push for selling the whole unit is not motivated by money. I can sell 4K in pump parts and make as much as selling the whole pump for 10K.

i agree
at the last const eq dealer i worked for,(20 years ago) i spent 8 years in the rebuild room, engines, transmissions, pumps, motors, gearboxes, control valves, large hyd cylinders, literally anything that could be removed from the machine was rebuilt.
labor rates were cheap back then, and we had a fairly quick turnaround. from the time an engine hit the stand in the rebuild room to when it was complete, painted & ready to drop back in was 8-12 hours.
leaking water pump? go grab a sandwich and a cup of coffee, see ya in an hour...

jump forward 20 years, some components just dont have the "life span" of previous models, labor rates have tripled, nobody wants to wait on anything to be rebuilt "i need it right now".
we can sell you a brand new waterpump for less than the cost of parts and labor, and you can walk out the door with it in 10 minutes.
about the only thing we routinely rebuild is hyd cylinders, even sometimes that doesnt work out, your cylinder may need more in parts/labor than a new one costs.

had a look inside a T4 common rail diesel engine? clearances arent in the 0.001 anymore, they are in the 0.0001
contaminated fuel system? replace everything from the HP pump to the injectors, last couple quotes i saw for a common rail engine were in the $12K range in parts alone.

 

[Two Speed]

^same deal with the local alternator/starter rebuild shop, they'll sell you a new one for less than the cost of a rebuild since the cost of the parts > the cost of complete unit. Unless you insist on it, or actually have something uncommon they won't even entertain the thought of rebuilding.

As a DIY guy, I do it just for the sake of doing it, and because I like taking **** apart and making it work again. I don't run a buisiness with it, so have nothing to write off for a tax break or am worried about down time. I got time, I don't have lots of money for a new one. To use the above example, spending $1000 bucks for parts instead of $2500 for a new one makes sense to me as a private individual. Would I do the same at work? Probably not. There the cost goes beyond parts or equipment, theres production, downtime as mentioned, and other people getting paid to wait. That exceeds 2500 easily.