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Is this building OBVIOUSLY bad?

PugetDude

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Exactly who I was waiting to chime in.
Readhead probably has the most experience of anyone here on design and erection of metal buildings. I spent 38 years on the equipment side, making machinery to produce the actual building components- roofing, siding, purlins, girts, trim etc. We worked with the structural design of the components, not the entire building package.

I suspect the OP is not going to like what Readhead (or anyone with a metal building design background) is going to recommend to fix this clusterf*ck. A properly engineered frame inside the building sounds good until you factor in foundation costs.

I foresee the "contractor" going out of business before this one is over. This structure is only marginally better than what @LXCam and I recently encountered during a visit to another GJ members place. Lots of shysters out there with a screw gun, a pocketful of Tek screws, and a trailer load of C Purlins selling "Metal Building Packages". Like this one.
 
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Slimmons

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I have seen a lot of build threads with these sort of buildings. I usually stay on the sidelines.

If you are finishing out the space - starting with a carport is penny wise and pound foolish. I said something similar on question about a pole building as well. Now I am sure that someone out there is building a metal building from all this light gage material that might actually build a good building.... I just haven't seen it yet.

We all know accessory buildings (Shop, garage, mancave..... whatever you call it) don't add value to resale. So I completely understand desire to not go over the top unless you have a bunch of money, never plan to sell, are using the space to make money, or have other requirements (like zoning/HOA) that force some of these fundamental type questions. If you are looking mostly for dry storage I can see these sort of buildings fitting the need.

I also get having a job in another area of expertise, building a building is a skill and also a good chunk of time that most of us don't really have to do. So getting a quick shell up and then being able to chip away at things inside at DIY pace that allows life to happen - there is a logic to that. The important part is to know what you want at the end then take steps over 6mo or 10yrs to get there. If you are going into this as a known temporary thing then a 5-10yr effective life is reasonable, just don't think it will be the same as a structure designed for 50yrs.

As for this building- not knowing what the foundation is makes it really hard for me to even say if you really can come out ahead with a rework plan. The trusses look very light and even appear to have a sag to them already. The good news is that you appear to be building a building inside of it to finish it off, adding some structure and connecting the two might save your day but it will probably involve adding some beams/trusses and posts at the ends to make it all work.

My $0.02 (which I am way past) is at the root of this is there was not a clear matching of expectations between owner and builder at the start of the project. I doubt that if there was this would have been the builder you would have chosen.
Thank you. I appreciate the input. As far as the foundation goes, it's a 4 inch slab with 12 inch footers (deeper in some places). I'll add a picture of where the metal "studs" (as I've been calling them) attack to the floor. But the rest of your assessment seems correct and makes sense.

1704152815225.jpeg
 

PugetDude

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Thank you. I appreciate the input. As far as the foundation goes, it's a 4 inch slab with 12 inch footers (deeper in some places). I'll add a picture of where the metal "studs" (as I've been calling them) attack to the floor. But the rest of your assessment seems correct and makes sense.

1704152815225.jpeg
J-bolts imbedded during the pour or 4" drop-in anchors?
I'm pretty sure of the answer...:(
 

PugetDude

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Since you're finishing this out on the inside, I would be tempted to just treat this as a metal skin and build a properly designed wooden structure inside of it. Probably the most cost-effective recovery path, especially if you can do some or most of it yourself.
Nice looking building, too bad it wasn't engineered properly.
 

NUTTSGT

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Thank you. I appreciate the input. As far as the foundation goes, it's a 4 inch slab with 12 inch footers (deeper in some places). I'll add a picture of where the metal "studs" (as I've been calling them) attack to the floor. But the rest of your assessment seems correct and makes sense.

1704152815225.jpeg
I'd hedge a bet that the concrete slab is bigger than the actual building footprint too ?
 
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Slimmons

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Since you're finishing this out on the inside, I would be tempted to just treat this as a metal skin and build a properly designed wooden structure inside of it. Probably the most cost-effective recovery path, especially if you can do some or most of it yourself.
Nice looking building, too bad it wasn't engineered properly.
I'm building everything on the inside myself. While I have 0 experience with metal buildings (as you can tell), I have a lot of experience in framing. When I saw what they were doing with the building during construction, I wasn't really concerned because I didn't know I should be. When I asked questions about how sparse the steel was on the inside they assured me that the trusses were overbuilt (something that definitely was a lie). It seems like my path forward (assuming I don't end up in a long legal battle where I'm forced to abandon this) will be to do what you suggested and build this assuming the metal won't stand up to time. 2x6 outside walls, supporting the metal, and maybe even add some kind of plywood or OSB to the 2x6 to make it rigid like a normal house. It will obviously increase the cost of the house, but it sure beats having it fall on me. I'm really hoping to avoid a lawsuit.
I'm definitely getting a structural engineer our here as soon as they open from the holidays. After I've talked to a lawyer, and a structural engineer has come by, I'll know more about my options.
And your assumptions are correct on the bolts. They are not J bolts, and I have no idea how long they are. I'm sure they aren't long enough. As far as the building footprint goes, the building does line up really well with the slab, and we haven't had any leaks where the metal meets the slab.....yet.
 
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Slimmons

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The metal should have lapped over the foundation wall, with ratguard flashing sealing the trapezoidal siding ribs at the bottom.
Your foam is probably the reason why it isn't leaking...yet.
The other "metal building guy" that came out and looked said that was basically the only thing that was done right. They missed a lot of screws around the windows, so the j-trim isn't really even attached (other than being basically glued in place by foam).
 

PCustoms

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This building is obviously bad.

I would recommend stopping all additional work and contacting a lawyer, at least for an initial consultation to see what you should/should not do.

Personally I don't see a way to avoid a lawsuit. Any additional work you do is a compromise and may impact your ability to recover damages from the "contractor".

Is your insurance paid up in the event you get a winter storm?
 

PugetDude

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I would see if you can find someone with experience in building wooden airplane hangars. They may be able to get you the clearspan you're looking for. They work with BIG glulams all the time.
 

NUTTSGT

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The metal should have lapped over the foundation wall, with ratguard flashing sealing the trapezoidal siding ribs at the bottom.
Your foam is probably the reason why it isn't leaking...yet.

The other "metal building guy" that came out and looked said that was basically the only thing that was done right. They missed a lot of screws around the windows, so the j-trim isn't really even attached (other than being basically glued in place by foam).
Well, that is GOOD news.
 

coldh2o

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Thank you. I appreciate the input. As far as the foundation goes, it's a 4 inch slab with 12 inch footers (deeper in some places). I'll add a picture of where the metal "studs" (as I've been calling them) attack to the floor. But the rest of your assessment seems correct and makes sense.

1704152815225.jpeg

Hopefully it's just a trick of the photo, but that weld doesn't look great. Is the column welded to the plate on all four sides?
 

PugetDude

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This building is obviously bad.

I would recommend stopping all additional work and contacting a lawyer, at least for an initial consultation to see what you should/should not do.

Personally I don't see a way to avoid a lawsuit. Any additional work you do is a compromise and may impact your ability to recover damages from the "contractor".

Is your insurance paid up in the event you get a winter storm?

Like I told my wife when my neighbors new construction blocked our drainage... "A backhoe is cheaper than a lawyer." Dug a new ditch.

Your chances of recovering anything from an unlicensed fly-by-night contractor are slim to none. Money would be better spent on an engineered solution instead of a lawyer. Put a plan together and implement it instead of hiring a lawyer to lead you on a "pay by the hour" wild goose chase against a shyster that only has to swap magnetic signs on his truck to get out of paying you a dime.

The GJ - where free structural engineering and legal advice is worth exactly what you pay for it.

Good luck. You are going to need it.
 
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Slimmons

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I wouldn't use a lawyer that would give me direction on something this complex for $200.
There's a pretty big construction law firm in my area. I'm going to do their "free consultation" tomorrow. If they look at the contract I signed, and tell me they don't want the case, then I'll drop the idea of a lawyer. At that point I'll go straight to a structural engineer, and have them evaluate what I have. If they think there's some saving it through slight modifications, I'll do that. If they say there's no saving it, and I have to rebuild, I'll go back to the lawyer route possibly.....depending on the feedback from the initial free consultation. But, I would prefer leaving lawyers out of it. I'm hoping a structural engineer says there's saving it with some minimal additions, and I'll contact the original company and see what they'll do. There's no telling. I do appreciate everyone looking at this though. I know it's hard to tell through pictures with minimal information.
 
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Zeke

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I worked in Alabama for a year. Spent a little time in MS too. Things are done differently there from what I'm used to in CA. Yes, we are over governed AFA construction goes. OTOH, in places I worked outside of any AHJ in AL anything could and was expected. A complete circus from my standpoint.

So, we don't know where you live and who has what authority. What's more, we don't know if your contractor is even required to be licensed. Before you do anything, you might look into what little leverage you may have. If your contractor has little to few assets, then suing him won't do much but cost you time and money. IOW, no gain and likely a loss.

Depending on the answers to the questions I posed, hiring this expert and that lawyer might be far more trouble than what that building is actually worth.

I am NOT saying it can't be corrected and saved. What I'm saying is that you need to find out a LOT more on your own. You've already made some big mistakes so try not to make any more. Knowledge is power but you don't always have to pay for it.

This post makes the most sense to me:
I have seen a lot of build threads with these sort of buildings. I usually stay on the sidelines.

If you are finishing out the space - starting with a carport is penny wise and pound foolish. I said something similar on question about a pole building as well. Now I am sure that someone out there is building a metal building from all this light gage material that might actually build a good building.... I just haven't seen it yet.

We all know accessory buildings (Shop, garage, mancave..... whatever you call it) don't add value to resale. So I completely understand desire to not go over the top unless you have a bunch of money, never plan to sell, are using the space to make money, or have other requirements (like zoning/HOA) that force some of these fundamental type questions. If you are looking mostly for dry storage I can see these sort of buildings fitting the need.

I also get having a job in another area of expertise, building a building is a skill and also a good chunk of time that most of us don't really have to do. So getting a quick shell up and then being able to chip away at things inside at DIY pace that allows life to happen - there is a logic to that. The important part is to know what you want at the end then take steps over 6mo or 10yrs to get there. If you are going into this as a known temporary thing then a 5-10yr effective life is reasonable, just don't think it will be the same as a structure designed for 50yrs.

As for this building- not knowing what the foundation is makes it really hard for me to even say if you really can come out ahead with a rework plan. The trusses look very light and even appear to have a sag to them already. The good news is that you appear to be building a building inside of it to finish it off, adding some structure and connecting the two might save your day but it will probably involve adding some beams/trusses and posts at the ends to make it all work.

My $0.02 (which I am way past) is at the root of this is there was not a clear matching of expectations between owner and builder at the start of the project. I doubt that if there was this would have been the builder you would have chosen.
 
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readhead

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I’ll be brief. You are getting the building you bought. If you haven’t already, stop the job and the money until a suitable solution can be reached. Be careful because this could bite you later.
Retain a structural engineer to examine the building. This will cost you.
You are in a very poor position. Technically the contractor has done nothing wrong. The only recourse you may have is if the engineer comes back with a report that states that the structure is not safe and should not be occupied.
At this point wait for the engineer's report, see what the contractor says and then decide if you want to lawyer up.
Best of luck.
 

readhead

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I responded last night after quickly scrolling through the thread. I missed the fact that the building is “complete”. Clearly the building is not structurally sound. The rafters, I can’t call them trusses, are inadequate. There is no bracing at the haunch to column connection. I would be concerned about the wind load on the tall wall with the windows.

By now I’m sure most people know my position on spray foam in metal buildings. This is a perfect example of defects that are going to be difficult to repair. Leaks will go undetected until the damage comes through the siding. Removing the foam to make repairs is almost impossible. I’m not blaming the OP because he wasn’t informed and he thought he was doing the right thing. At this point he has to deal with what is there.

I stand by my last post that you are in a bad position as far as resolving the problems. There are a lot of bad actors in the metal building business and unfortunately you seem to have found one of the worst. When you meet with the structural engineer ask for to separate things. First an examination of the existing structure and second his recommendations for reinforcing the structure. This will cost more but gives you information on what and how much the repairs will cost and give you more ammunition if this goes to court.

Generally in construction contract law you will have to give the original contractor the opportunity to fix the defects. In this case I think you have a pretty compelling case to override that option but be aware that this could happen.

I wish you the best but unfortunately I think that ultimately you will be on your own to rectify the problems.
 
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Slimmons

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I responded last night after quickly scrolling through the thread. I missed the fact that the building is “complete”. Clearly the building is not structurally sound. The rafters, I can’t call them trusses, are inadequate. There is no bracing at the haunch to column connection. I would be concerned about the wind load on the tall wall with the windows.

By now I’m sure most people know my position on spray foam in metal buildings. This is a perfect example of defects that are going to be difficult to repair. Leaks will go undetected until the damage comes through the siding. Removing the foam to make repairs is almost impossible. I’m not blaming the OP because he wasn’t informed and he thought he was doing the right thing. At this point he has to deal with what is there.

I stand by my last post that you are in a bad position as far as resolving the problems. There are a lot of bad actors in the metal building business and unfortunately you seem to have found one of the worst. When you meet with the structural engineer ask for to separate things. First an examination of the existing structure and second his recommendations for reinforcing the structure. This will cost more but gives you information on what and how much the repairs will cost and give you more ammunition if this goes to court.

Generally in construction contract law you will have to give the original contractor the opportunity to fix the defects. In this case I think you have a pretty compelling case to override that option but be aware that this could happen.

I wish you the best but unfortunately I think that ultimately you will be on your own to rectify the problems.
Thank you, and I appreciate your insight. I'm going to do what you said, and reach out to a structural engineer to get the examination of the existing structure and recommendations for reinforcing the structure. I also wanted to ask you if you thought a valid solution could be to give up on the structural integrity of the exterior building (metal), and just build a structural sound building on the inside and connect the metal building to it? Assuming everything else goes poorly, it very likely will be easier/cheaper to have someone like a wooden hangar construction group build on the inside. But, we'll see what the structural engineer says, and I'll get back with everyone. Thanks again for looking at this.
 

jack stand

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You might get up on the roof with a string line and a pad of paper and pull the sting end to end @ every "truss" and record any deflection for your preliminary meeting with the engineer.
It might save a trip for him (you- $) and he may want further measurements later, but these basic numbers will be helpful. So far it sounds as if you only think it's sagging.
 

readhead

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I think the only option to save what is there would be to build additional structure inside however that may be tricky.
That may involve foundation work and some serious bracing or sheeting to create the required shear diaphragms.

Ultimately you may have to weigh the cost to fix what you have with the cost to replace the building. That is why you need to wait for the engineers report and depending on what it says then you need to pick a direction.

Really the only thing you are saving is the sheet metal to some degree. Another suggestion that an attorney may suggest is to empty the building out just to press the point that it is unsafe.
 

MOS3522

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You have hurricanes in 'Bama? Will that building stand up to even a Cat 1 storm? Or even a microburst thunderstorm?
 

Old tool guy

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You might get up on the roof with a string line and a pad of paper and pull the sting end to end @ every "truss" and record any deflection for your preliminary meeting with the engineer.
It might save a trip for him (you- $) and he may want further measurements later, but these basic numbers will be helpful. So far it sounds as if you only think it's sagging.
How do you factor out the deflection caused by the weight of the person taking the measurements? Probably going to be a significant number in this case.
 

readhead

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I actually meant the cover which would include windows and doors. I’m not sure about the foundation. Remediation may include significant point loads which may mean a lot of concrete cutting and new footings.
 

PugetDude

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If they poured a monolithic slab with thickened edges it might be possible to come in with new columns against the existing, 40' glulam beams and 4x purlins, all on Simpson hangers. Frame conventional 2x6 walls and then shear everything with 5/8" OSB. An interior shear wall is almost certainly going to be required.

If preserving the 40 foot clearspan isn't an issue, breaking the framing into 20' spans with load bearing posts could greatly reduce the cost.

Building looks good on the outside, but some real WTF going on inside. Kinda like my ex...😉
 

DGersic

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Looking at the pictures, it’s not the Shed Of Doom level of bad. I was expecting worse, given the thread title.
 

billconner

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Are all of the other buildings built by this builder still standing as far as you know?

How deep are the roof trusses, top of top chord to bottom of bottom chord? And they're 10' on center - a 40 x 50 building?

Have you had any luck finding an engineer to come look at it? Not many interested in this size building or type of work.

Following.
 

Rusted Nut

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The OP stated no inspections were required in his jurisdiction. However, I would think that any structure still has to be built to local, state and national building codes. Ask the builder to prove the design and structure comply with applicable building codes. If builder won’t provide this, check with state building code council or other appropriate authority for next steps.
 

kwb

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As a lot of others have said - the OP is going to be out on his own with this. Pouring money into recourse attempts is futile.

At least with going to an engineer you are putting money into information that will help improve the structures integrity.
 
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