To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

Is this building OBVIOUSLY bad?

Boogerman

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2021
Messages
833
Location
aspen cove hill
The real lesson in this thread is:

For the average person, even those that are in the GJ fraternity, permits and the permitting process and plan review and inspection are there for a reason.

You have to be very good at construction design, plan review, construction inspection, and construction practice to contract for a non-permitted building and get an acceptable product.

Going cheap by avoiding all the normal design, review and inspection channels can become very expensive, and give unsatisfactory results.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

PugetDude

ALLIANCE MEMBER
Joined
Mar 13, 2013
Messages
22,358
Location
Superstition Mountains, AZ
Light gauge framing has completely changed the metal building market. Cost of entry is a lot different than a traditional red iron manufacturing facility. You don't need heavy equipment to fabricate light gauge frames.
A good sized home equity loan is often enough to get you started.

Want to be a Light gauge building company?
With limited personal liability? Easy. Advertise on the Internet under half a dozen different names. (Or, subcontract to someone who does)
Rent a ratty old industrial building, lease the production machinery, rent forklifts, and hire your sister in law to do payroll.
Sub out all the Engineering to a sweatshop in the Philippines, and hire day labor to produce the frames.
Call an independent trucker and have the frame delivered to the erection contractor, whose sole assets are his tools, truck and the hound dog sleeping on the seat. He's renting the all terrain forklift and manlifts from the local A-Z rental, and hiring most of his crew out of the Home Depot parking lot.

The reality is that any reputable lawyer is going to look at the recovery opportunity before taking your case.. If it isn't there, they are going to look at you as the recovery opportunity. They are going to get paid either way. See how excited they are about your case when they find your contractor doesn't have a pot to piss in.


There are exceptions to this. Contractors like Readhead with years of experience and established relationships with reputable pre-engineered building manufacturers.
But he's competing with the guys in the example outlined above. Which is how we end up with threads like this.
 
Last edited:

duneslider

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2013
Messages
2,254
Location
Riverton, Utah
Anyway to find out who the engineer was that did those drawings that weren't followed? They might be the best company to go to inorder to get a fix? They already work with the shady contractor and they might be more open to working with you at a more reasonable cost to find a solution.

I know I can still call the engineer my builder used for my house and for reasonable fees they will work with me for things I want to do. I would probably pursue that route before asking the builder to make random changes that may or may not help with the situation. What you have and what those drawings show are so far apart you can't even compare them.

Also, just ballpark. What did the structure cost (metal building only)? I started my house construction right when covid started. By the time the foundation was in wood had started to skyrocket. I ended up paying over 50k more than initially quoted for wood and trusses. It hurt big time but we had to make the decision to keep moving and figure out where to cut back so we could keep moving. The house lost 50k in interior finishes, those can be added later as funds become available. I would hit up the engineer that did that initial design first.
 

readhead

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Messages
6,177
Location
Durango, Co.
It appears that the design company did nothing wrong if we are to believe the information so far. They really don’t have a dog in this fight. The changes came from the contractor. I still don’t understand the series of events including the contract that got the OP to this point. This just proves that the internet can provide endless entertainment.
 

dougf

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Messages
402
Location
Missouri
Those plans (that were divulged to OP after the fact) do not matter one single bit, as they are not an enclosure/annex of said contract. If the entire contract (which has not been redacted and posted) is as simple as the OPs snippet he showed on a previous post, what recourse does he have? It appears he received what was in the agreed upon contract, and an absence of a failed inspection (being there was no inspection conducted by a 3rd party) will just hurt him legally.
 

gregs

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
1,589
The commercial steel building the business is in at work was built 30 years ago. The building was manufactured by a reputable steel building company that is still in business today. It was erected by the contractor that did the concrete work and all the finish work. They where a average contractor and did average work, nothing perfect by no means. The shop section has 8-12x14 overhead doors, four on each side so you can drive straight thru. Somebody dropped the ball on the design and the building shipped with no overhead door openings or engineering for that. So the side walls where designed to be sheeted and have diagonal "cable/rods" for shear. All this was discovered as they where assembling it. The building company was able to engineer a "wind column" solution that got added at the main beam locations to handle the shear needed. And obviously sent all the door frames and necessary steel to correct it.


Sometimes "**** happens". I'll be the first to admit I have made plenty of mistakes. As I have told my daughter growing up, its not about the mistake but how you fix it that makes a difference.

Hopefully the contractor and his engineer can acknowledge whether its safe as built or come up with a solution.
 
OP
S

Slimmons

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2023
Messages
66
Those plans (that were divulged to OP after the fact) do not matter one single bit, as they are not an enclosure/annex of said contract. If the entire contract (which has not been redacted and posted) is as simple as the OPs snippet he showed on a previous post, what recourse does he have? It appears he received what was in the agreed upon contract, and an absence of a failed inspection (being there was no inspection conducted by a 3rd party) will just hurt him legally.
After looking up a lot of information about how these lawsuits go, you appear to be completely correct. The plans were not included in the contract.
 

mikedodge

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 27, 2017
Messages
2,775
That contract doesn't match the plans. You're down to getting it inspected to determine if it's safe or what needs to be done to fix it. Like someone else said even with no city/town inspections there still should be some building code it needs to meet. The contractor sounds big enough that they should be worth going after. He wouldn't want it out there either that hew screwing customers and doing sub par work.
 

Rusty Wrench

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 19, 2021
Messages
190
Musings on legal... Usually 1st hour consult with attorney is free.
Assemble as much info as possible. Is builder LLC? Send your own letter of intent for recovery; registered with receipt of delivery. Builders response will be important.

As a professional land surveyor I have been involved in construction lawsuits many times. As a consultant, not a defendant. :)
A competent attorney will advise if you have a case. Most of the time they are settled, usually right before trial.
The attorney will take35-40%. On a T&M basis, expect to pay $250/hr and you should get a reasonable expectation of fees in writing.

If builder has a 2+MM annual business; is he going to fold over 50K or whatever? There is always hope.

Best of luck to you Simmons
 
OP
S

Slimmons

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2023
Messages
66
The real lesson in this thread is:

For the average person, even those that are in the GJ fraternity, permits and the permitting process and plan review and inspection are there for a reason.

You have to be very good at construction design, plan review, construction inspection, and construction practice to contract for a non-permitted building and get an acceptable product.

Going cheap by avoiding all the normal design, review and inspection channels can become very expensive, and give unsatisfactory results.
I agree with what you've said. I will say one thing though. The most frustrating part for this for me has been that this builder was referred to me by more than a couple of people, and he was the 2nd most expensive builder. So, I went with the 2nd most expensive option, and got the worst outcome. This was just barely cheaper than a red iron building, but there were reasons I didn't want to go red iron. Hindsight, I should have gone red iron, and I should have refused to do anything unless the engineered building plan was in the contract. Live and learn I suppose.
 
OP
S

Slimmons

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2023
Messages
66
Would you mind posting a copy of the contract, with personal info for both you and the contractor blacked out.
Line 1 is basically "you can't sue us", but I've been told that doesn't typically stand up in court. Also, they have a separate "company" that does the install. It's literally the same people that create the building. They have 3 companies made up of those same people, and they each handle a different sub-section of the company.
 

Attachments

  • pg1_edited.PNG
    pg1_edited.PNG
    478.2 KB · Views: 238
  • pg2_edited.PNG
    pg2_edited.PNG
    398.5 KB · Views: 231

PCustoms

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
22,577
Location
VT
Line 1 is basically "you can't sue us", but I've been told that doesn't typically stand up in court. Also, they have a separate "company" that does the install. It's literally the same people that create the building. They have 3 companies made up of those same people, and they each handle a different sub-section of the company.

😂 That contract....
 

PCustoms

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
22,577
Location
VT
Who needs a pesky old SOW anyway . . .

Absolutely.

I'm going to sell you a building...some other guy will install it. I'm not responsible for them at all, or what the finished product is. Oh, you need to supply the slab. And if there are any issues I'll repo it.
 
OP
S

Slimmons

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2023
Messages
66
Absolutely.

I'm going to sell you a building...some other guy will install it. I'm not responsible for them at all, or what the finished product is. Oh, you need to supply the slab. And if there are any issues I'll repo it.
The best part of "some other guy will install it" is that, it's not true. The same people who sold it to me, installed it. I think they just have the install company under another LLC in case they're sued. Hopefully that doesn't hold up in court, but who knows.
 

PCustoms

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
22,577
Location
VT
The best part of "some other guy will install it" is that, it's not true. The same people who sold it to me, installed it. I think they just have the install company under another LLC in case they're sued. Hopefully that doesn't hold up in court, but who knows.

Apologies for being blunt, but it's pretty clear you're naive and are getting effed because of that

I've said it before you need to meet with a lawyer to got some direction. If you continue to go through this solo or with advice from the Internet (yes, irony as I'm giving advice) you are highly unlikely to have a positive outcome.
 
OP
S

Slimmons

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2023
Messages
66
Apologies for being blunt, but it's pretty clear you're naive and are getting effed because of that

I've said it before you need to meet with a lawyer to got some direction. If you continue to go through this solo or with advice from the Internet (yes, irony as I'm giving advice) you are highly unlikely to have a positive outcome.
Yeah, it's not fun to feel like an idiot for being taken, but......I feel like it's pretty common for people to trust contractors, and then get screwed. Having said that, I contacted a couple of lawyers this morning, and they're both reviewing the details to possibly take the case. Both of them seemed to think based on our conversations that I have a solid case. I probably won't be posting on here much more about it until I'm done with the lawyer phase (you know 12 years from now).
 

PCustoms

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 23, 2011
Messages
22,577
Location
VT
I probably won't be posting on here much more about it until I'm done with the lawyer phase (you know 12 years from now).

Unfortunately for us, they'll probably advise you to not post about the case here.
 

Rusted Nut

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2022
Messages
1,806
Location
PNW
OK, this whole thing is really weird. A recommended contractor who has been in business for several years? I’m a commercial construction superintendent, and I’ve never seen anything like this.

OP - the contract you posted, is that the entire contract? The engineered plans you posted are not engineered. A engineered plan has size, guage, connections, etc… specified; and is wet stamped by a state licensed engineer. Do you not have anything in writing showing what was to be built? Do you any written communications; emails, brochures, sketches? Anything? Did you actually sign a contract? What percentage of the contract have you paid to date?

I suggest you have a meeting with your contractor and see what you can work out, prior to getting an attorney involved. In the end you may need an attorney, but attorneys can **** up an incredible amount of money before getting any results. You need to find something written that shows what was to be built, and threaten the builder with legal action; if this doesn’t get you anywhere, then you will have to get a lawyer.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!

mikedodge

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 27, 2017
Messages
2,775
Well that first line only mentions labour. Technically most of your problem isn't the labor but the material that was provided to erect.
 
OP
S

Slimmons

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2023
Messages
66
OK, this whole thing is really weird. A recommended contractor who has been in business for several years? I’m a commercial construction superintendent, and I’ve never seen anything like this.

OP - the contract you posted, is that the entire contract? The engineered plans you posted are not engineered. A engineered plan has size, guage, connections, etc… specified; and is wet stamped by a state licensed engineer. Do you not have anything in writing showing what was to be built? Do you any written communications; emails, brochures, sketches? Anything? Did you actually sign a contract? What percentage of the contract have you paid to date?

I suggest you have a meeting with your contractor and see what you can work out, prior to getting an attorney involved. In the end you may need an attorney, but attorneys can **** up an incredible amount of money before getting any results. You need to find something written that shows what was to be built, and threaten the builder with legal action; if this doesn’t get you anywhere, then you will have to get a lawyer.
It's not the entire contract. But there's only one more page, but it only has things like the number of windows and doors. Nothing else. Everything else that we communicated was through email with me giving descriptions of the building I wanted. I have absolutely nothing in writing showing what was supposed to be built. I guess there were a couple of reasons I was ok with that. #1, apparently I'm too trusting. #2, in their warehouse they have examples of the tubing they build and the type of construction. The example they showed me was "studs" that were double the size of these. The trusses were the same though. And when I asked for a drawing, they said they don't do drawings. At the time, I didn't know that I should have seen detailed engineering plans. These metals buildings are so incredibly simple (I thought), that I wasn't sure I even needed to see any. And even in their shop (I went there today), their examples ALL were spaces 5' on center, with double the steel I have.
Here's my big problem with your suggestion of meeting with the contractor first. I don't believe they can fix this without a complete rebuild, or ruining the plans for the house. I don't think they'll have any options. I had another metal builder from my area come by in person today, and he was as confused as all of you have been. He walked around and couldn't find anything but errors. He said all the exterior siding would need to be removed, which would destroy all of the spray in foam...which was INCREDIBLY expensive. Everywhere leaks, and the building is already showing signs of wanting to come down on its own. His advice to me was not to mention a thing about this to the original contractor, and take all the evidence I have to a lawyer. That's two local contractors now that have told me to not speak to this man again, and sue him.
Can you think of anything the original contractor could do to fix this? Even if he agrees to take the building down, and rebuild it, I'm out an amount of money I can't lose in things I've put into the house (framing, foam, electrical, etc....). I'm stuck. I absolutely hate the idea of suing someone without giving them every opportunity to make it right, but I'm afraid he'll just use my good nature to drag fixes on and on forever, and I'll never finish this house.
 
OP
S

Slimmons

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2023
Messages
66
OK, this whole thing is really weird. A recommended contractor who has been in business for several years? I’m a commercial construction superintendent, and I’ve never seen anything like this.

OP - the contract you posted, is that the entire contract? The engineered plans you posted are not engineered. A engineered plan has size, guage, connections, etc… specified; and is wet stamped by a state licensed engineer. Do you not have anything in writing showing what was to be built? Do you any written communications; emails, brochures, sketches? Anything? Did you actually sign a contract? What percentage of the contract have you paid to date?

I suggest you have a meeting with your contractor and see what you can work out, prior to getting an attorney involved. In the end you may need an attorney, but attorneys can **** up an incredible amount of money before getting any results. You need to find something written that shows what was to be built, and threaten the builder with legal action; if this doesn’t get you anywhere, then you will have to get a lawyer.
And to add on, the plans I posted were wet stamped by an engineer on the bottom right. All 5 or so pages had the same stamp. I only uploaded the final page because it was the only page that had the complete house. I'll upload the rest here.
An additional note on the plans. I was looking through my emails with them, and on the very first email, I did tell them I was interested in eventually putting on a front porch. I didn't ask for that work to be done by them, but that's the only reason I can guess there's one on here. But as pointed out, this is just as likely to not be my plans as it is to be a mistake of my plans. Also, on these plans, there's a bottom base plate bar. My house has no such bar.
 

Attachments

  • mb_4_edited.JPG
    mb_4_edited.JPG
    1.1 MB · Views: 151
  • mb_3_edited.JPG
    mb_3_edited.JPG
    1 MB · Views: 117
  • mb_2_edited.JPG
    mb_2_edited.JPG
    713.4 KB · Views: 115
  • mb_1_edited.JPG
    mb_1_edited.JPG
    811.1 KB · Views: 192

readhead

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Messages
6,177
Location
Durango, Co.
How did it go from the set of plans you are showing us to a single slope? There had to be a set of plans to fab the building you have now.
 
OP
S

Slimmons

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2023
Messages
66
How did it go from the set of plans you are showing us to a single slope? There had to be a set of plans to fab the building you have now.
I only have assumptions. And the guy who gave me the plans also had assumptions. And here they are. This company has never done a single slope roof. I'm their only one (I didn't know this until now). They have a team that gathers what the customer wants, and then a team that fabricates the buildings. There is a middle man that is the owner. He guessed what happened is that the team that took down what I wanted told the owner, and he just forgot or missed that it was a single slope roof, because he doesn't do them. Then he told the engineer what to build (without the single slope roof). The only person I ever told that I eventually wanted a front porch like in the drawing, was the owner, so that kind of makes sense. But I never told his team that, and I told him I didn't want it at the same time. Only assumptions.
 

gsmith22

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 14, 2015
Messages
337
Location
Central NJ
And to add on, the plans I posted were wet stamped by an engineer on the bottom right. All 5 or so pages had the same stamp. I only uploaded the final page because it was the only page that had the complete house. I'll upload the rest here.
An additional note on the plans. I was looking through my emails with them, and on the very first email, I did tell them I was interested in eventually putting on a front porch. I didn't ask for that work to be done by them, but that's the only reason I can guess there's one on here. But as pointed out, this is just as likely to not be my plans as it is to be a mistake of my plans. Also, on these plans, there's a bottom base plate bar. My house has no such bar.
these aren't engineered drawings. they look kind of like steel erection plans that tell the steel erector where to put the individual fabriced pieces. there is nothing about them that look anything like any engineering drawing i have ever produced myself or seen by any other engineer. nothing about the drawings tells anyone what individual members are used in any of the trusses, the geoemtry of anything, how to weld any of them together, etc.
 
OP
S

Slimmons

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2023
Messages
66
these aren't engineered drawings. they look kind of like steel erection plans that tell the steel erector where to put the individual fabriced pieces. there is nothing about them that look anything like any engineering drawing i have ever produced myself or seen by any other engineer. nothing about the drawings tells anyone what individual members are used in any of the trusses, the geoemtry of anything, how to weld any of them together, etc.
I believe you. And I don't know what to say or do. About every hour I switch whether I want to go talk to them more, or just sue them.
 

gsmith22

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 14, 2015
Messages
337
Location
Central NJ
I've recently had a metal building put up, with the intent of building on the inside of it (something I'm about 30% of the way done with). The building started leaking and I had another metal builder come out yesterday (not the original creator of the building). He walked inside and basically told me I should sue the builders and immediately move out. I already have another manufacturer lined up to come give me their opinion, but I wanted some opinions here because the guy who just told me it's garbage said it would be obvious to anyone who has ever dealt with metal buildings.


Pictured below, all the metal you see is what I believe is normal 2x3 tube steel. I don't know what gauge the steel is, but the guy from yesterday said it wouldn't matter which gauge it is (of the normal gauges). The studs (running up and down), are 21 feet tall on the high side and they are 10ft on center. The guy from yesterday (not original installer) said the max they should be for that height is around 6ft on center, but he was reciting that from memory. But he was confident they couldn't go 10 ft on center.


It's a single slope roof. The ceiling joists are made by the guy who put up the building and it's spanning around 40 ft. Including the angle, they're just shy of 41ft I believe. He also said there's no way they would have ever gotten any engineering approval for this design. They are also 10ft apart. It is already sagging a bit in the middle.


I already know the original building made some really terrible mistakes. He put about half the windows in the wrong spots. There's large sections with missing screws, and a few other problems. But the original installer came back and fixed all of those.

I know that no one can be positive, and nobody is giving official legal advice. I also know that this could have been done better, but is it as bad as the guy from yesterday says, or was he overreacting a bit?

Another thing he mentioned, was how poorly the wall was supported around the windows. With there being so many windows, he said he'd be afraid the building would bend there on a large wind, and break the windows.
This is in Alabama, so the load requirements for snow and things are pretty low.
1703976181230.jpeg
Here's before the spray foam

1703978181069.jpeg
1703978199234.jpeg
1703978230316.jpeg
1703978265278.jpeg
1703978326350.jpeg
these aren't roof trusses. they are two chords with some intermittent web "v"s. You can get away with intermittent web members near center span but not at the column supports. I have no idea how they are resisting even the roof self weight - maybe the individual chords are essentially spanning the whole way individually? its why you are getting such large deflections with no load other than self weight. anything can be fixed with time and money, but that roof framing looks like a do over to me without essentially adding a secondary framing system below it that can actually span to support what is there. fail to understand how this thing could resist wind loading.
 

Boogerman

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2021
Messages
833
Location
aspen cove hill
The additional plan sheets show the cross bracing for lateral wind resistance perpendicular to the end gables, which was the one thing I didn't see in the first single sheet you posted. This would have been a pretty good design, if executed as shown instead of the flat roof thing you got.

You're now referring to this as a "house", was that the intent instead of a shop?

I'm sorry for all the difficulties you're going through with this. But, the lesson here is if you are going to do a non-conventional building, you really need to have a highly qualified design professional design it, and even then, have a good qualified construction professional truth the plans. I've seen some awful alternative building designs by Architects, that were trying to put client wishes and their own artistic efforts into place, that didn't work out in construction, or that wouldn't have without very skilled contractors and tradesman to correct the design deficiencies. The high cost of creating a new and unique design is that it's generally more expensive, and often has unforseen problems, that haven't been worked out by repetitive building and learning in the past. Even famous architects (think Frank Lloyd Wright) had major problems in the execution of their signature structures.

Moving to a flat pitch roof from the core design your contractor/fabricator did, put them into a situation where they didn't have the knowledge and experience to do the design right. This was aided by the lack of plan review and inspection, which would have caught most of the more blatant problems.

Good luck with whatever path you choose to start getting this corrected. As you said earlier, you're most likely going to eat all your work and costs for the mods you've done after you accepted the building shell and started in modifying it, even if you can get the builder on the hook for fixing the original shell.

My own personal thought is that if you want to make this a home, not a shop or shed, you'll be better off in the long run starting over, and going a lot more conventional in the design. And, having plan review and construction inspection done, either by the local building department having jurisdiction, or by a contracted professional. Having a building shell that perpetually leaks and that isn't particularly structurally sound isn't a good long term house basis. I suspect that water leaks into a wood interior structure in your part of the world will lead to rot, mold and termites.
 

gsmith22

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 14, 2015
Messages
337
Location
Central NJ
I believe you. And I don't know what to say or do. About every hour I switch whether I want to go talk to them more, or just sue them.
the people that got you into this mess are probably not the people to get you out of it. I would change course and don't fall for the sunk cost fallacy trap. litigation ***** but I'm not sure anyone that you hired to build this can make it right. there are far too many fundamental things wrong with the base structure.
 

Boogerman

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2021
Messages
833
Location
aspen cove hill
these aren't engineered drawings. they look kind of like steel erection plans that tell the steel erector where to put the individual fabriced pieces. there is nothing about them that look anything like any engineering drawing i have ever produced myself or seen by any other engineer. nothing about the drawings tells anyone what individual members are used in any of the trusses, the geoemtry of anything, how to weld any of them together, etc.

these aren't roof trusses. they are two chords with some intermittent web "v"s. You can get away with intermittent web members near center span but not at the column supports. I have no idea how they are resisting even the roof self weight - maybe the individual chords are essentially spanning the whole way individually? its why you are getting such large deflections with no load other than self weight. anything can be fixed with time and money, but that roof framing looks like a do over to me without essentially adding a secondary framing system below it that can actually span to support what is there. fail to understand how this thing could resist wind loading.
How familiar are you with the steel building industry? I don't see these as too atypical for in house engineered and designed buildings. A lot of those buildings are just detailed like this, and a big part of the "engineered drawings" is the printouts from the design program that spits out the member sizes. I had a good friend that I graduated with that was a design engineer for Garco, and I remember a lot of his work output being like this. The sheet metal on these buildings is a lot of the structural elements, in addition to the frame. One of the reasons full fastener installation is critical, and modifying for doors and windows and such can compromise the structure. As I recall his work, the price of the building was entirely based on the weight of the steel in the building.

The roof members are also fairly typical for open span steel clad roof construction, I've seen those many times, often supported by masonry walls. Usually I don't see them in steel buildings, because those are typically red iron in my area because of snow loads. The depth of these particular ones looks very deficient to me, but I'm used to high snow load areas, not Alabama.

I remember one Wal-Mart structure that was designed that way, I didn't do the design but my firm was brought in to analyze and correct a masonry wall that showed failure. I remember another Wal-Mart one that the roof failed and was repaired twice because of snow load deflection and ponding, I didn't work on that one, but looked at it after the repairs out of curiosity. It was actually repaired in place by jacking it back up to take out the deflection, and adding web stiffeners and reinforcing the bottom chord. It was more than a month of structural welding in place to accomplish that repair, while the store was shut down and cleared out. The first repair was just to add stiffeners on part of the trusses, the final repair fixed all of them and beefed them up.

I did a quick google search; here's an Alabama fabricator that makes that type of trusses:


Note that they say in their website that they are intended for unpermitted ag buildings only, and they need to be contacted for permitted work. I'd say that's what happened here; the OP took advantage of an agricultural no permit situation to save costs, and ended up with an ag style and quality building, instead of a residential or commercial grade one.
 
Last edited:

Boogerman

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2021
Messages
833
Location
aspen cove hill
I'd guess that any fix will look something like the picture I'm pasting in below. Note that it has a lot of posts to hold up the flat roof, and a fairly wide truss type column at the end to hold it up. Note also that the low end eave height is only 10 feet; your 18 to 20 feet will have to be enormous to not buckle and bend under wind load.

There's a lot out of the ordinary with the structure as built. Too small of roof trusses for the span, too wide a spacing between trusses, way too slender of side support columns, way too high a structure, no lateral bracing of the walls. I'm thinking any fix that doesn't replace the original structure entirely will involve a support wall under at least every other truss, and those walls will have to have shear panels in them to resist wind loads. It might actually take a support wall under every truss, and beefing up of the perlins between the trusses to support the roof.

1704349546965.png
 

gsmith22

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 14, 2015
Messages
337
Location
Central NJ
How familiar are you with the steel building industry? I don't see these as too atypical for in house engineered and designed buildings. A lot of those buildings are just detailed like this, and a big part of the "engineered drawings" is the printouts from the design program that spits out the member sizes. I had a good friend that I graduated with that was a design engineer for Garco, and I remember a lot of his work output being like this. The sheet metal on these buildings is a lot of the structural elements, in addition to the frame. One of the reasons full fastener installation is critical, and modifying for doors and windows and such can compromise the structure. As I recall his work, the price of the building was entirely based on the weight of the steel in the building.

The roof members are also fairly typical for open span steel clad roof construction, I've seen those many times, often supported by masonry walls. Usually I don't see them in steel buildings, because those are typically red iron in my area because of snow loads. The depth of these particular ones looks very deficient to me, but I'm used to high snow load areas, not Alabama.

I remember one Wal-Mart structure that was designed that way, I didn't do the design but my firm was brought in to analyze and correct a masonry wall that showed failure. I remember another Wal-Mart one that the roof failed and was repaired twice because of snow load deflection and ponding, I didn't work on that one, but looked at it after the repairs out of curiosity. It was actually repaired in place by jacking it back up to take out the deflection, and adding web stiffeners and reinforcing the bottom chord. It was more than a month of structural welding in place to accomplish that repair, while the store was shut down and cleared out. The first repair was just to add stiffeners on part of the trusses, the final repair fixed all of them and beefed them up.

I did a quick google search; here's an Alabama fabricator that makes that type of trusses:


Note that they say in their website that they are intended for unpermitted ag buildings only, and they need to be contacted for permitted work. I'd say that's what happened here; the OP took advantage of an agricultural no permit situation to save costs, and ended up with an ag style and quality building, instead of a residential or commercial grade one.
what was constructed was not engineered based on what I can see.

if you look at the link you provided regarding the trusses, you will note that the truss members are angles and the webs and chords all meet such that their centerlines nearly come to a singular point (known as a panel point) at every roof purlin. now look at the OP's roof members - here is a whole roof purlin bearing on the top chord with no web members framing in causing the top chord to bend like a beam between locations where web members are located. what web members are present only occur at every other purlin with like a 5' space between adjacnet web "v"s. nothing about these "trusses" would indicate to me an engineer was involved.
 

Boogerman

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 28, 2021
Messages
833
Location
aspen cove hill
I'll be the first to agree that the actual constructed beams shown in the as constructed photos have no correspondence to what an engineer would design for them. They're just plain wrong for the application.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the entire design concept is bad, I'd have to see the calculations for the members to see if the top cord can support a purlin between web elements like shown in the gable roof plans. I would prefer to see a support point under each purlin, but a designer trying to cut out weight and welds might omit them if the calculations showed it was acceptable.

The structural programs developed in the past 20 or 30 years are pretty good at putting out minimal material designs, and go against some of the old design assumptions we used to use when we weren't able to calculate as easily.

Of course, like I said, I've seen one major building with these type of trusses fail, and I know it was designed by a competent engineering firm. They just designed too close to the limit, and ponding escalation got them. Of course, they blamed the truss manufacturer and found faults with the fabrication. I always taught my guys to take into account some fabrication variation, and don't design right to the edge of failure.
 

ybnormal

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2016
Messages
5,002
Anyway to find out who the engineer was that did those drawings that weren't followed? They might be the best company to go to inorder to get a fix? They already work with the shady contractor and they might be more open to working with you at a more reasonable cost to find a solution.

I know I can still call the engineer my builder used for my house and for reasonable fees they will work with me for things I want to do. I would probably pursue that route before asking the builder to make random changes that may or may not help with the situation. What you have and what those drawings show are so far apart you can't even compare them.

Also, just ballpark. What did the structure cost (metal building only)? I started my house construction right when covid started. By the time the foundation was in wood had started to skyrocket. I ended up paying over 50k more than initially quoted for wood and trusses. It hurt big time but we had to make the decision to keep moving and figure out where to cut back so we could keep moving. The house lost 50k in interior finishes, those can be added later as funds become available. I would hit up the engineer that did that initial design first.

I'm even wondering if this "contractor" just didn't dummy up a set of drawings for the customer, "oh hey, we found them!". In which case, if I was the original design engineer and found out some douche-builder used my plans for his own gain and is now dragging me and my company into this train wreck, I'd be pretty hot about it and looking at what I could do to make them pay for ruining our reputation of quality designed buildings.


And to add on, the plans I posted were wet stamped by an engineer on the bottom right. All 5 or so pages had the same stamp. I only uploaded the final page because it was the only page that had the complete house. I'll upload the rest here.
An additional note on the plans. I was looking through my emails with them, and on the very first email, I did tell them I was interested in eventually putting on a front porch. I didn't ask for that work to be done by them, but that's the only reason I can guess there's one on here. But as pointed out, this is just as likely to not be my plans as it is to be a mistake of my plans. Also, on these plans, there's a bottom base plate bar. My house has no such bar.
if the plans really were supplied by that company, I wonder how happy they would be about a builder causing them potential liability by claiming to use their plans and then half-assed doing it his own way?...... may want to contact that design engineer
 

bluedog225

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
3,276
Location
Texas
I always taught my guys to take into account some fabrication variation, and don't design right to the edge of failure.

I routinely put in 25%+ for construction goofs, lazy, etc.

The number of cut corners attempted during construction was surprising.
 

bluedog225

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 31, 2012
Messages
3,276
Location
Texas
OP-I think you have to talk to them. Calm meeting. “I’ve got some concerns.”

Then you need to spend a bit on an engineer.

And a quiet word with the folks who recommended them.

Then decide.
 

readhead

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Messages
6,177
Location
Durango, Co.
Without knowing what the eventual interior buildout is I’m sure there was no consideration for collateral or tributary loads. I’ll throw out an opinion that may or may not be popular. I think the repair is going to exceed the price of the original building. I would suggest to the builder that installed of enriching some lawyers that he replace the building with a properly designed and engineered structure. The other option would be for the builder to return the owners money less the value of the concrete and remove the building so the owner can move on with another contractor.

There is money in the job for overhead and profit and the material isn’t going to be a big ticket. The contractor is going to take a hit but not a big one. If he is smart he will make the owner whole, leave him with a clean slab, apologize and move on.
 
Last edited:

LOW1

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 20, 2018
Messages
2,637
Location
ontario
OP-I think you have to talk to them. Calm meeting. “I’ve got some concerns.”

Then you need to spend a bit on an engineer.

And a quiet word with the folks who recommended them.

Then decide.
This, but get the engineers report first. It will greatly improve your bargaining position.
 

Lassen Forge

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2014
Messages
15,115
Location
The romantic hills of central Umbria, Italy,
WARNING - my comments below are result of dealing with so-called "contractors" who made a living out of hosing customers. As such, it's pretty nasty and gritty. Mine were predominantly public works stuff, not private buildings, but the results were the same.

I think the thing that concerns me most is at first "We're not going to show you our plans or drawings, Eff you, go away", THEN they come up saying "Here's the drawings" but they're not anything CLOSE to your building. IDK who this company is or how reputable they are, but based on that AAR I'm surprised they're not already dissolved and living in Aruba. BTW, the very contract I was supposed to be the signatory for the receiver (eg the DOT) was for 8 digits (27.4 million total), regarding landscaping and irrigation on a freeway interchange. When I turned on the backflow, the hydrant effect blew out a hillside, and all the risers and (as we found out, fake) sprinklers were stuck into the ground with NOTHING under them.

13.6 million (their 50%) of 1985 dollars for $3000 worth of fake plumbing parts. And yeah, they dissolved as soon as they got wind we were wise to them. That's why I mention "aruba" as thats where they went. SO take this for what it's worth... or not.

And to add on, the plans I posted were wet stamped by an engineer on the bottom right. All 5 or so pages had the same stamp. I only uploaded the final page because it was the only page that had the complete house. I'll upload the rest here.
An additional note on the plans. I was looking through my emails with them, and on the very first email, I did tell them I was interested in eventually putting on a front porch. I didn't ask for that work to be done by them, but that's the only reason I can guess there's one on here. But as pointed out, this is just as likely to not be my plans as it is to be a mistake of my plans. Also, on these plans, there's a bottom base plate bar. My house has no such bar.

Don't matter, those "plans", wet stamped or not, have no relationship to what you have installed. "Here, have a placebo, we think you're a rube, so here's some plans, haw haw" is what I got from what they gave you. You get that, right? What they gave you has NO relationship to what they built you. It's "Here's the papers for the not otherwise elaborated GM "Cadillac" I sold you, take it and be happy", as they drop a Chevy Citation on your doorstep.

ANY company, sorry, but they should have the plans they design their buildings to (whether they be a one off or something churned out of their factory) because, well, how the hell is anyone supposed to make sense of any kind of instructions based on a "D'urrrr... we'll chuck it together any which way". They also need those to fab the parts, and know they're not losing their *** making parts. Once they said "we're not going to show you the engineered drawings for your building we engineered" they dropped trou. They knew they hosed you, and their only regret then was they got caught.

OP-I think you have to talk to them. Calm meeting. “I’ve got some concerns.”

Then you need to spend a bit on an engineer. And a quiet word with the folks who recommended them. Then decide.

I would have a number of people in that "calm meeting". Other than you, one would be an actual structural engineer who reviewed this mess, the second would be an attorney to follow the nonsense, third would be the person who inspected the building and found it severely lacking... Because I can, if it were me, I'd also have an enforcement arm of the state contractor licensing board, maybe even a member of the local law enforcement community... I've been down this road before (with multi-million dollar state public works contracts) and contractors that pull the **** they pulled like that KNOW the scam they're pulling, and have contingency plans to get outta dodge.

BTW, I guarantee they'll have at LEAST their attorneys at tme meeting.

By now, you should realize their only purpose was to remove your hard earned money from your pocket and give you as little as possible. God help you when that pile of sheet metal comes down with the local 4th of July party inside, and they start looking at who to sue, and that company will be instantly vaporware. Haw haw, too bad, so sad.... They rely on you being a "nice guy" and "not stirring up waves" and "being calm and peaceful" because that's what's expected in polite society. That's how scam artists work. You are a good citizen, they know how those rules go so they can use them to hose you. Honestly, I almost expect they woud NOT show up to any meeting as they're probably aware of the scamjob they pulled on you, and, well, Aruba. You. of course, will sue, only to find out they have no assets (being liquidated already) and will be hung out to dry, the only winner will be the attorneys..

IF you can make the pile of stuff they dumped on you work, then good for you. If you do the "right thing" and go after them, you will be out a pile of pecunium chasing ghosts (believe me, I've seen shyster contractors who are experts at this game), still holding the bag PLUS tens of thousands of legal bills (as the lawyers are honey badgers, they don't give a s#!t but they will get their money)... I would be figuring out if I could do something with what they dropped in your lap. You're gonna be out money to try to make this disaster work, but you know this.
 
To avoid these ads, REGISTER NOW!
Top Bottom