James J. Ryan Tool Works

[woody 73]

An old story that I am sure most of are GJ readers are aware of but I thought for a few of the newer members might also enjoy this story.

I was very lucky in that I stopped by a small garage sale last week and there under a pile of old rags was this old vintage RYAN screwdriver in very good condition for its age; my lucky day kind of like hitting the lottery as they say.

James J. Ryan was born on the 3rd of Oct. 1872 in Southington, Hartford County, Connecticut and he died on the 26th of June 1974 at the ripe old age of 101 years. He is buried at the Saint Thomas Cemetery in Southington, Hartford County.

He started out as the James J. Ryan Tool Works and later the J.J. Ryan Tool Co.; and later it became the J.J. Ryan Corp. They are the Parent Company to the Rex Forge company still in active business today.

This story has a very rich History and if you have the time please be sure and read all the links, included you will find not only his life history along with a catalog from the 1940's, a grave site marker,and the rex forge company information.

On a very interesting side note (something I forgot about) they took over making the perfect handle screwdriver from the H. D. Smith company,back in the 1930's.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-RY...pT2V:sc:USPSFirstClass!43214!US!-1:rk:12:pf:0

http://trowelcollector.blogspot.com/2017/07/history-of-james-j-ryan-tool-works.html

https://archive.org/details/RyanToolsCatalogNo23/page/n3

https://www.thomasnet.com/profile/00473052/rex-forge-div-the-j-j-ryan-corp.html

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/39036330

 

[Ryan]

Why do I like that so much?

 

[woody 73]

Why do I like that so much?

It is not everyday that you find a tool with your own name marked on it for everyone too see.

 

[Stuart in MN]

I was very lucky in that I stopped by a small garage sale last week and there under a pile of old rags was this old used vintage RYAN screwdriver in very good condition for its age; my lucky day kind of like hitting the lottery as they say.

Why do I like that so much?

I'll bet Ryan has a birthday coming up, and he'd sure like to get a screwdriver with his name on it.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Found a decent "perfect handle" pattern screwdriver at the flea market yesterday with a hex shank for turning with a wrench. I've found vintage H.D. Smith, Tobrin, Irwin, Federal, and now Ryan in this style. This is my first Ryan tool of any kind.

Pic 3 is a page for this screwdriver in the Ryan catalog Woody linked above. They called it the "original Wrench Grip Perfect Handle Screwdriver." That's a twist, pun intended, on the H.D. Smith name. So is the name "Perfect Grip" that they gave the more typical H.D. Smith "perfect handle" pattern type screwdriver on the very next page of the catalog. Just enough connotation to its predecessor.

The catalog does not appear to be dated. Has anyone tried to date it?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I am 100% positive that this 4" (blade length) DUNLAP "Perfect Model" screwdriver with the BK code was made by James J. Ryan. Happy to find it at the flea this morning.

 

[BlakeTheCarGuy]

Cool thread. I got a Ryan screwdriver with a clear yellow handle I got at the pawn shop about 6 months ago. When I go down to the basement after dinner I’ll take a picture.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

They are the Parent Company to the Rex Forge company still in active business today.

I've been traveling through Connecticut lately, always on a pretty tight schedule, but I stumbled on the factory earlier today.



It was actually this sign...



...visible from the highway, that prompted me to take the next exit and work my way back to the building. I wanted to see if there was any connection between it and the Southington Mfg Company that made the "S" wrenches that a few of us (me, @leg17, @LesserSon) have. After a nice chat with the ladies in the office (they didn't know anything about the history of the company other than it changing names and hands several times, and nothing before 1970), as I was walking across the parking lot to my car, I spotted the big blue J.J. RYAN plant across the street.

I'm going to do some more homework, line up some specific addresses, and the next time I am up there, see if I can visit the former factory locations for the other Southington/Plantsville area manufacturers, which included PEXTO, H.D. Smith, and Tobrin.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

Cool thread. I got a Ryan screwdriver with a clear yellow handle I got at the pawn shop about 6 months ago. When I go down to the basement after dinner I’ll take a picture.

Were you able to get back from the basement yet?

 

[d42jeep]

This NOS eBay find arrived yesterday.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Wow, that's super clean, Don. I'm not quite sure how to date it, though. There are two Ryan catalogs on IA/ITCL, in case you haven't already seen them. Catalog No. 23, which is not dated, does not offer an Extra Heavy Duty Machinists' type "Perfect Handle" screwdriver. All the "PH" types have "RYAN TOOLS" stamped on the shank. (I have a couple Wrench Grip types posted upthread.) Catalog No. 26, which is dated 1958, does include an EHDM "PH" type, your NOS'er is a spittin' image example, and the illustration is clearly ink-stamped on the handle. As an added bonus, the page is advertising their compliance with Federal Spec. No. (GGG-S-121c), typical in the late 40's and 50's boom cats (e.g., Fairmount). Check it out. Pretty cool.

 

[d42jeep]

It will be difficult to date exactly with a lack of wartime catalogs but it has the unfinished shank and visible grind marks common to wartime extra HD screwdrivers of which I have more than a few in various brands. The postwar catalog’s example shows a part number stamped and the shank looks more nicely finished than mine.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

It's possible. The lack of a part number does more for me than the crude finish, which is common among a lot of military tools, wartime and postwar, as a cost cutter. It's too bad we can't date that No. 23 catalog. That would help. It's certainly vintage and a nice example regardless of its exact age.

 

[d42jeep]

I suspect that it went to the UK as part of lend-lease and either was one of the tools that turned up missing or was surplus after the war. i cleaned these price markings off of it.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The British price marking certainly helps show it came from the UK, Don, but when is still the question. Ryan's contract was with the ORD, not Treasury (Lend-Lease), by the way, in late 1942 to 1943. Plenty of ORD tools went missing, too, so that's still a possibility for your theory. I'm not doubting it could be military, especially with Ryan extolling its Fed Specs, as I already mentioned. But it could just have easily walked off a USAF base in England in the 50's or 60's. The USAF maintained a major presence, aircraft and support, at RAF bases until 1991, when they began drawing down in vast numbers. I'm not trying to dissuade you. It's your tool, you can date it however you want. I just don't think there's enough to date it to wartime. Its strong resemblance to the drivers in Catalog No. 26 (1958), but the Catalog No. 23, just three catalogs earlier than that, not including any "PH" type EHD machinists' screwdriver is what gives me the most pause. We don't know how old the other Ryan screwdrivers are, either, including the ones I posted upthread. They look like the drivers in Catalog No. 23, but that cat not being dated is a problem.

 

[d42jeep]

Private Lugnutz said:
"...Polishing or buffing of any kind was actually expressly prohibited..."

The above quote was lifted from a discussion about D-I sockets. One of the main reasons that I am of the opinion that the Ryan screwdriver in question is likely wartime is the coarseness of its finishes. The same type of finish, or lack thereof, is seen on Ink marked Irwin and Tobrin screwdrivers that were almost certainly made during the war. It seems unlikely that postwar tools mostly destined for civilian markets would appear as poorly finished as this Ryan is.
Wartime ink marked Irwin screwdriver finish for comparison.
-Don

 

[Farmer J.]

The British price marking certainly helps show it came from the UK, Don, but when is still the question.

Some time after 15 February 1971 for sure.
The price is in decimal pounds and pence, if the price was earlier it would be pounds, shillings and pence.
Not actually much help though in dating the actual tool.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Don, you quoting me to myself as if I am somehow ignoring or contradicting my own Fed Spec research and your comments about postwar tools being "mostly destined for civilian markets" makes me think I need to clarify and re-emphasize a couple of related points that I have made in two posts above.

I don't doubt the screwdriver is probably military. It was found in the UK, and Ryan expressly touting its compliance with Fed Specs in its catalog enhances a probable reason for it being in the UK. In 1958, Ryan was obviously selling to the government, almost certainly the military, just like Williams, Fairmount, Armstrong, Plomb, etc., and just like those OEM's, speaking directly to military agency buyers in the language in their catalogs. It's why so many postwar catalogs tout Fed Specs. Catering to them so directly is not an indicator of a civilian focus. Just the opposite. It was the start of the Military-Industrial Complex. Tool production for the military did not wane and shift to the civilian market after WWII, it increased, and I am not aware of the military dropping a minimal finish in postwar contracts. It was a common way to cut time and costs. Yes, some of us have certainly used it on occasion to distinguish military from civilian market tools, especially when other attributes aren't enough, and we have done so in the context of WWII era tools, but that's because we are mainly WWII collectors. I don't think a minimal finish was exclusive to WWII, and I don't think it's enough by itself to overcome the Ryan catalogs problem (i.e., it appearing in the 1958, but not in the earlier).

(As an aside, totally tangential to this discussion, a crude finish is not enough by itself even in WWII tools. I have ink-stamped IRWIN screwdrivers and a Federal EHD machinists' screwdriver that have a nice, smooth finish free of machine marks. Wrenches, too. It was not always consistently applied.)

Some time after 15 February 1971 for sure.

Thanks.

 

[d42jeep]

Although I have learned not to trust catalog images, if my screwdriver matched the nicely finished example including the part number shown in the catalog I would be in complete agreement with you.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Well, I wouldn't expect them to show the military grade finish in the catalog any more than I would the other OEMs in that time period. It's not a military catalog. It's a commercial catalog touting Fed Specs with a special note for government buyers in the beginning.

As for the lack of a part number on your example, I am not sure it indicates whether it's earlier or later than the screwdriver shown in the 1958 catalog or just that it's military vs civilian.

My primary skepticism remains it not appearing in the earlier catalog. It would be nice if we had a few other catalogs earlier than No. 23 (not dated) or even in between No. 23 and No. 26 (1958) so we could get some more context on how much earlier the No. 23 was published. If it was every year it would be 1955, but I highly doubt Ryan was big enough to publish a catalog every year and it looks like quite a few years between them.

Note that the No. 23 mentions government specs but does not cite them by number. Also, note that the No. 23 describes the finish for several drivers as highly polished. Whereas No. 26 oddly does not mention finish at all. Not sure what that means.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

That thudding sound is me smacking my head with the heel of my hand!

@Mark Stansbury has done our homework for us here without me realizing it.

When Woody says...

...please be sure and read all the links, included you will find not only his life history along with a catalog from the 1940's

...he is referring to Catalog No. 23, his third link.

How is Woody dating Catalog No. 23 to the 1940's? His second link is to Mark's excellent article on J.J. Ryan on his trowel collectors blogspot and in that article Mark dates Catalog No. 23 to the 1940's.

How is Mark dating it? Here's how...

The introduction to Cat No. 23 on page 2 says that the J.J. Ryan Tool Works started "more than a quarter century ago."
Between 1914 and 1917, J.J. Ryan was working for another manufacturer.
According to the 1920 Southington, Connecticut city directory and 1920 US Census, J.J. Ryan was manufacturing screwdrivers under his own name.

1920 + 26 (one year "more than a quarter century") = 1946.

 

[d42jeep]

“Between 1914 and 1917, according to Southington city directories, Ryan entered business as a tool manufacturer with David E. Conners at 81 Water St., Southington. By the 1920 directory, he was on his own at the same address, manufacturing primarily screwdrivers, according the 1920 US Census. By 1930 the business was at 315 Center St., Southington. Ryan took over making the famous Perfect Handle screwdrivers when Plantsville's H.D. Smith & Co. went out of business between 1930 and 1933. The name changed by 1951 to James J. Ryan Tool Co.“

Many manufacturers were a little vague about how long they were in the business of manufacturing tools, as you know. If one uses the starting date of 1914 plus the 26 years implied in the catalog that could put the catalog date at 1940. Just sayin’.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

1940 would be great! He was working for Conners from 1914 to 1917, though. Two different sources have him on his own for the first time in 1920. I'm inclined to follow Mark's instincts on that. 1946 is close enough, in my opinion. No need to stretch it. The line of tools shown inside a catalog published just a year after the war very likely represents their wartime production. We see that with Bonney and several others. Note, again, though, that No. 23 does not include an Extra Heavy Duty machinists' style screwdriver with a Perfect Handle. If they were making it during WWII, it would certainly be included. It looks like they added it some time in the late 40s or 50s.

 

[d42jeep]

If you say so. He started making tools, apparently with a partner, around 1914. If he was selling screwdrivers to the ORD why wouldn’t he be making spec correct extra HD screwdrivers? What was he selling to the ORD according to your sources? He must have been selling something to them if he is on your verified supplier list.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Huh? Have you looked at Catalog No. 23, Don? I didn't say there weren't screwdrivers in it and I didn't say that some of them weren't Perfect Handle type. The ORD contract is vague ("Tools"), but I am sure they were making most of the tools in that catalog during WWII, probably the screwdrivers. I have a couple that I am now very glad to be able to date more confidently to the 40s. But the Extra Heavy Duty machinists' driver, with a square shank, is not a Perfect Handle type. It's the fluted handle type, like BHM and others were making. The catalog includes no EHD machinists screwdriver, square shank, with a PH. The 1958 catalog does. Simple logic dictates it was added to their lineup after No. 23 and before No. 26.

 

[d42jeep]

i read the catalog from beginning to end. My interest in this discussion has been exhausted. Obviously you are of the opinion that my new screwdriver is more modern than I believe it is. I can live with that. Over and out.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

? Of course. Why shouldn't you live with it? Just giving my analysis. Absolutely no need for us to be in agreement. I was confused because your questions made no sense following my post. That there is no Extra Heavy Duty machinists' screwdriver with a PH in Catalog No. 23 is not a matter of opinion, though. It wasn't apparent to me you were aware of that as a key piece of evidence. And now we know that was a 40s catalog. That's impossible to ignore.

 

[MR.X]

Probably not the best time to bring this up, but, unironically saying "over and out." after a long discussion somewhat centered around military "correctness" isn't a great look.

 

[d42jeep]

I wasn’t striving for a good look. I’m too old and grumpy to worry about it. Here is an ad from 1929 I spotted on the internet this morning. It seems that Ryan was making perfect handle style screwdrivers for quite a while.
-Don

 

[MR.X]

Right, but, and I hate to over explain chit, but it’s a mistake that nobody I know could make, I don’t even remember recruits sayin it when I was a drill…..wait, Don, do you even know what I’m referring to?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Here is an ad from 1929 I spotted on the internet this morning. It seems that Ryan was making perfect handle style screwdrivers for quite a while.

That is well known and has been mentioned on the thread several times. They took over for H.D. Smith, which was in Plantsville, just a mile or so away. Plantsville and Southington are contiguous to each other.

 

[d42jeep]

I simply said it because I wasn’t interested in continuing the conversation. I have zero military background. I apparently specialize in bringing up information that has already been mentioned several times on this thread. I don’t remember seeing the ad I posted previously. Now I’m even grumpier.
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I don’t remember seeing the ad I posted previously.

I didn't say anything about the ad being redundant, Don.

You posted the ad and wrote...

It seems that Ryan was making perfect handle style screwdrivers for quite a while.

...as if you had just discovered that fact, and, as if you weren't aware that it had already been posted and discussed several times and you were providing some information we didn't already have. So, I was simply letting you know and providing the additional direct linkage to Smith. (I was under the impression it was Tobrin, who was located in Plantsville itself, but Mark seems to have information that says Smith took over.)

 

[d42jeep]

I certainly appreciate that.

 

[Farmer J.]

Well it's been an entertaining and educational evening for me reading this thread, and I looked up several things rather interesting things not even about screwdrivers that I didn't previously understand..
It's a shame that Don is a bit grumpy though, as he does have a very nice screwdriver.

I shall now end this post by saying:

Over. - Correct terminology for an American soldier.

Over and out. - Correct for English meaning in this context according to Cambridge dictionary:

over and out

1. said when you are talking to someone by radio in order to end the…

dictionary.cambridge.org

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I certainly appreciate that.

You're welcome.

(As for the "over and out," it's strictly pop culture language. Esoterically, they are a contradiction in terms in military PTT radio SOP. It's either "over" - in which case you are expecting a reply, or "out" - in which case you're not and it is the end of transmission.)

I've been in historical search mode, too, looking for a trade mag from the 40's or earlier that includes an ad for a Ryan Extra Heavy Duty (so-called Machinists', as we know it from GMTK refs) "Perfect Handle" screwdriver. That would provide a legitimate counterpoint to Ryan Catalog No. 23 not including one. So far with no luck. There are plenty of ads in all kinds of prewar and wartime trade mags for the standard Heavy Duty "Perfect Handle" screwdriver, which Ryan dubbed No. 290. And also for the No. 300, which is the part number they gave to the Wrench Grip type "Perfect Handle" with the hex shoulder for turning with a wrench. (I have a couple of those, posted upthread.) But no EHD's.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Don,

At the risk of making you even grumpier about me questioning the date of that screwdriver, I have more data for you to consider for your opinion that it is wartime.

It is from my copy of Treasury Department Letter Circular LC265, dated 1937, which is essentially a list of certified suppliers for Fed Spec products, including hand tools, including screwdrivers (GGG-S-121). It casts further doubt on J.J. Ryan making an Extra Heavy Duty integral handle ("Perfect Handle") screwdriver during WWII, which is consistent with Ryan Catalog No. 23 (1940's) not including one.

Here is the cover page for source validation.



And here is the screwdrivers page.



You'll recall from my obsessive deep diving GMTK research days on G503.com, that the screwdriver we are talking about is Type V, Class B. (What we think of as regular "Perfect Handles" is Type III, Class B.) You will see that in 1937, Ryan was making Type I, II, III, and VI. But Ryan was not making Type IV or V.

We could entertain the idea of them adding an EHD PH type to their line between 1937 and 1942, but as I have been maintaining since the beginning of this discussion, if they took the time and effort and expense to expand their line to EHD's, I think they certainly would have included that in their Catalog No. 23 to advertise that fact, especially since they added it later, sometime before Catalog No. 26 in 1958. (Note, as I pointed out several times, that they did make an EHD with rubberoid handle, which does not meet GGG-S-121 specs. The government felt the EHD should either be all steel - dubbed Class A, or integral wooden handle, Class B.)

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Quick add: I do have some requests with my friends on the Google Books team to unlock some Snippet-Only views of Ryan ads from 1940 and 1947 trade mags. Maybe they will provide some counterpoint to the 1937 Fed Spec list and Ryan Catalog No. 23.

 

[d42jeep]

Hmmmmm.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Hmmmmm.

If that and a picture of Ryan screwdrivers is supposed to mean something in counterpoint to the facts we have gathered here, Don, I have no idea what it could be. Please explain. You do realize that nobody is arguing that Ryan didn't make "PH" screwdrivers, right? I don't say that as a challenge at this point, but a real question. Because I can't see any reason why you would think additional photos of undated screwdrivers helps with anything that is at debate here. When has always been the only question. There is an abundance of irrefutable documentation (the 1937 Fed Spec suppliers list, the 1940's Catalog No. 23, and period trade mag ads) that they were making the HD types from the late 1920's right through WWII and almost certainly provided them to the government. Again, nobody is questioning that. But the same evidence shows them explicitly not making the EHD's in those timeframes. In fact, the only evidence we have of them making the EHD's so far is the 1958 catalog. No amount of additional photos of Ryan screwdrivers will change that. I have never seen you this un-obective about dating a tool before.