Job gone wrong
- Thread starter blue dog
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Yes, this is a different story. I stand by I remarks about the original post by Blue Dog.
My story was in repsonse to Holedgr. Somehow I am the reason there are bad contractors, that I somehow forced my contractor take my money and do shoddy work.
Are there bad contractors? People that don't have the temperament or ethics to be in the business? I think the answer to that question is obvious and they didn't get that way from working for me.
My story was in repsonse to Holedgr. Somehow I am the reason there are bad contractors, that I somehow forced my contractor take my money and do shoddy work.
Are there bad contractors? People that don't have the temperament or ethics to be in the business? I think the answer to that question is obvious and they didn't get that way from working for me.
See Blue Dog.....this is what I'm talking about....all these comments about "over inspecting" and what not...Wow....I'd definetely look into erasing your posts....
Don't misunderstand....I am with you....assuming your story is accurrate....I would just rethink your posting of information....
As to the situation of "overinspecting".....wow....I would be nervous about what the inspector is aware of in terms of who's work is who's so you aren't on the hook for someone else's work...Shouldn't there be a stop order now if you cancelled the permit...Hell, if you wanted to be unethical..you would've asked or pushed to have their re-permitting process drag out, delaying everything....having everything over inspected would only help the homeowner and unlicensed carpenter end up with a safe, code-compliant product....and maybe make the inspector have to do a lot of babyasitting and in-field education....
Ya gotta love the 'interweb' though!!
-T
Don't misunderstand....I am with you....assuming your story is accurrate....I would just rethink your posting of information....
As to the situation of "overinspecting".....wow....I would be nervous about what the inspector is aware of in terms of who's work is who's so you aren't on the hook for someone else's work...Shouldn't there be a stop order now if you cancelled the permit...Hell, if you wanted to be unethical..you would've asked or pushed to have their re-permitting process drag out, delaying everything....having everything over inspected would only help the homeowner and unlicensed carpenter end up with a safe, code-compliant product....and maybe make the inspector have to do a lot of babyasitting and in-field education....
Ya gotta love the 'interweb' though!!
-T
What did ya do? Pay him in full prior to the placement? You're fault for not holding a percentage till product is placed and acceptable. This is standard procedure in my world...had I F'd up your slab, I would have replaced it or offered a SERIOUS discount...like materials only charge, if it weren't too bad....
I have lost a pour before....it happens. I dealt with it....
Temperment? To what, coddle you AND give a pefect product AND allow you to F' them (in Blue Dog's case)?? You're comments about Blue Dog's situation do not follow suit with the experience you had....
Maybe had you posted in reverse order, exlpained a little more, hmmm, you might see "the light"....but, I doubt it.....Have a good day!!!
-T
WOW, some of you are out to lunch, first of all, i never threatened the homeowner. He will need to reinstate the permit with a new contractor or under owner builder as of monday morning due to me revoking the one that is under my license. Some of you can call taking the material stealing, but if i did not load it and return it, it would have turned into a fight to get reimbursed for it. I alleviated that scenario. Again, Here in Los Angeles, as soon as the material hits the job, you can not remove it, installed or not, it becomes a civil matter. As far as some one giving them a hard time to further the process of finishing the build, in my mind, the harder the better.
I know contractors have a bad name in the business world, but for some reason, the mass populous all ways thinks that the contractor is to blame. sure there a re unscrupulous people out there, just in this case it was the homeowner. I have never had a situation like this happen, i have how ever had people at the end of a job not make the last payment until they were faced with a lien. Until you have been in my shoes or have been a contractor doing business for 20 plus years without any litigation i could care less what you have to say. Life will go on, as well as my business.
Between the economy, hispanic labor, stupid DIY shows and unrealistic interior designers, among a few other things, it is enough to make a guy want to go do something else for a living.
I know contractors have a bad name in the business world, but for some reason, the mass populous all ways thinks that the contractor is to blame. sure there a re unscrupulous people out there, just in this case it was the homeowner. I have never had a situation like this happen, i have how ever had people at the end of a job not make the last payment until they were faced with a lien. Until you have been in my shoes or have been a contractor doing business for 20 plus years without any litigation i could care less what you have to say. Life will go on, as well as my business.
Between the economy, hispanic labor, stupid DIY shows and unrealistic interior designers, among a few other things, it is enough to make a guy want to go do something else for a living.
admactanium
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Like I said bluedog, I sympathize with your situation and I believe the homeowners were completely in the wrong. I would never just cancel out a job like that when I had a contract in writing. I'm just saying that you have little to gain and more to lose by being vindictive.
You may not care what I have to say as an anonymous person on the internet, but I'm just giving you a perspective of someone who has hired GCs in your exact area (Westside of LA. Currently in South Bay). I'm not even trying to "threaten" you in any way, just trying to give you a different opinion on the matter.
You may not care what I have to say as an anonymous person on the internet, but I'm just giving you a perspective of someone who has hired GCs in your exact area (Westside of LA. Currently in South Bay). I'm not even trying to "threaten" you in any way, just trying to give you a different opinion on the matter.
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I get it,and i have no hard feelings towards you, after being in this business you realize that this a dog eat dog world, being a contractor in this city and working for wealthy clients is even worse in my opinion, the rich are more likely to screw you more then anyone. I will sleep fine tonight knowing what hoops the owners will travel threw to continue there job.
And i live right next to the South bay and have done remodels in Redondo, Manhattan beach , Hermosa, Torrance, P.V.
I will let you guys know what happens on monday with the husband.
Oh Yeah, STEVE IN MI., i hope you have a good day and go fu$$ yourself. I may not be the guy you want to build your house, but you sure are not the guy i want to build a house for.
admactanium
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In LA I think it's gotten to the point where homeowners are getting their revenge on contractors. Back during the boom time contractors were screwing homeowners left and right. I had a GC that did the renovation on my first house after I moved out that sorta screwed me over. I waited two weeks for him to send someone over to finish the job by installing one window in the bathroom. Granted, it was an exterior window on a stucco house, but he kept stalling and stalling. Finally he told me that I could just keep the final payment of $9000 and that he wasn't going to finish that window. When times were good some GCs were jumping around and taking all the money they could and not finishing the jobs they started.
A friend of mine who owned 5 or 6 properties in Venice warned me beforehand of that EXACT situation. He told me that I could have one piece of trim that needed to be installed at the end and that the contractor would never show up for it. Turns out that the GC on that job also routed my plumbing drain pipes straight into the ground. The sink ran right into the dirt. Unfortunately for the new owner, it wasn't discovered until after he bought the place and I honestly didn't know about it.
I didn't hear from that contractor again until a couple months later when he had the gaul to ask if I act as a recommendation for him on another job. The meteoric rise of the market in California basically caused a psychological war between contractors and homeowners in this area. Just be careful because almost all homeowners will believe another random homeowner before they'd believe 10 contractors. It doesn't take much to get a bad rep around here I'd bet.
A friend of mine who owned 5 or 6 properties in Venice warned me beforehand of that EXACT situation. He told me that I could have one piece of trim that needed to be installed at the end and that the contractor would never show up for it. Turns out that the GC on that job also routed my plumbing drain pipes straight into the ground. The sink ran right into the dirt. Unfortunately for the new owner, it wasn't discovered until after he bought the place and I honestly didn't know about it.
I didn't hear from that contractor again until a couple months later when he had the gaul to ask if I act as a recommendation for him on another job. The meteoric rise of the market in California basically caused a psychological war between contractors and homeowners in this area. Just be careful because almost all homeowners will believe another random homeowner before they'd believe 10 contractors. It doesn't take much to get a bad rep around here I'd bet.
blue dog,
since the job site is under your license, and your permit.
a.) should you inform the brother-in-law contractor "stay the **** out of my site".
b.) god forbid if someone got hurt on site, isn't your liability insurance to cover it?
since the job site is under your license, and your permit.
a.) should you inform the brother-in-law contractor "stay the **** out of my site".
b.) god forbid if someone got hurt on site, isn't your liability insurance to cover it?
Flange
Well-known member
I work for a large contractor and have worked in construction & civil engineering for too long to remember.
Over here in the UK we have similar laws regarding materials on site. The law cannot make rules that are right in every case, for every case when a Client is in the wrong there is another case when the Contractor is in the wrong. In the UK (as in L.A.) the courts have, after literally hundreds of years of legal precedent and experience, decided that ownership of materials pass to the Client on delivery to site. Its just how it is so you have to live with it.
I have had similar experiences over the years and whilst some on this forum may say you are wrong because the law says you should have left the lumbar there, I think you did the right thing.
I am a believer in natural justice. I don't mean that you should totally flout the law in a bad way (e.g. violence or intimidation) but here in the UK we have a saying in civil matters which is "possession is nine tenths of the law".
Once the cops arrive, whoever has possession of the goods (in your case the lumbar) is going to keep it until the courts decide otherwise.
Its easy for folks to say "you should have done this or that" but until you have been in a similar situation I don't think you can comment with any authority.
You did the right thing. Two parties signed a contract and if one party is in blatant breach of contract then they deserve all that they get, be they Client or Contractor.
Over here in the UK we have similar laws regarding materials on site. The law cannot make rules that are right in every case, for every case when a Client is in the wrong there is another case when the Contractor is in the wrong. In the UK (as in L.A.) the courts have, after literally hundreds of years of legal precedent and experience, decided that ownership of materials pass to the Client on delivery to site. Its just how it is so you have to live with it.
I have had similar experiences over the years and whilst some on this forum may say you are wrong because the law says you should have left the lumbar there, I think you did the right thing.
I am a believer in natural justice. I don't mean that you should totally flout the law in a bad way (e.g. violence or intimidation) but here in the UK we have a saying in civil matters which is "possession is nine tenths of the law".
Once the cops arrive, whoever has possession of the goods (in your case the lumbar) is going to keep it until the courts decide otherwise.
Its easy for folks to say "you should have done this or that" but until you have been in a similar situation I don't think you can comment with any authority.
You did the right thing. Two parties signed a contract and if one party is in blatant breach of contract then they deserve all that they get, be they Client or Contractor.
cowboyjosh
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As a builder and owner of a electrical contracting company; I NEVER DO WORK FOR FAMILY. Doing work for family is a PITA, especially extended family that think they are entitled to a discount and then ***** no matter what. So let this fool build a addition for his sister and brother in law, sounds like the home owner and the unemployed brother who needs work are all fools.
Steve in Mi
Well-known member
You misunderstood. I only listed/stated what you admitted to publically and ended with a question.
bgott
Well-known member
My contracting experience comes from remodeling and repairing my rental units. Any materials left on the jobsite become the property of the first border jumping illegal that comes by with a pick-up truck after I leave. So, I haul my materials to the jobsite on a 16' lowboy trailer and what I don't use during the day goes home with me at night. That might be something to think about.
Charles (in GA)
Well-known member
Totally agree with everything you have done except one. You should never, and I mean NEVER, publicise the fact that your friend is going to give them a hard time on your say so. Over here we have a criminal offence of "Misconduct in a public office" and that is precisely what your friend would be charged with if it happened over here.
I'm not saying you shouldn't have asked him, I'm saying you shouldn't have told us on the WWW.
I get the impression that he did not ask the inspector to do anything illegal, just to be through, especially since a BIL who may or may not have a contractors license is doing the completion. Nothing wrong with that. Inspectors in the building trades have to go on the trust of the contractors in many cases. If they are aware that someone who is an unknown is doing the work, then they need to be aware of that and pay "special attention to the job".
I agree that it may not be good to advertise such........ the property owner could be frequenting this board and you do not know it.
I try to be vague about many things and that is why, I don't know who is looking.....
Charles
ddawg16
Well-known member
Nice to see such polarization.....and it's not related to guns or 'clean kills'......
I see both sides....at the end of the day, no one wins.....but I do have a prediction......I bet someone will get a divorce over this.....
I see both sides....at the end of the day, no one wins.....but I do have a prediction......I bet someone will get a divorce over this.....
Good idea bgott.
Yeah, the material belongs to the job after it lands. It's been the same in several states that I have worked in.
Sorry to hear this Blue Dog. I hope you hit the bids on the good jobs that will keep you and your guys busy.
1320stang
Well-known member
I've been in the construction industry for my whole adult life. I understand right from wrong and even though the material is the homeowners apparently once it's dropped off at the site, I have no problem with him loading it back up and returning it as you know where that would go, lots of time lost in court fighting the thing when the homeower didn't ever pay for the material and breached the contract besides. Blue Dog might have got his money back because of the breach, but not for all the other lost time. Now had the homeowner been there and offered to pay for the materials right then and there, that would be okay in my mind.
The inspector can only make sure the codes are followed. All Blue Dog did was ask him to be more scrutinizing than usual, he didn't ask him to do anything illegal. If the BIL is really good, he shouldn't have a problem.
I think that even without Blue Dog's request to the inspector, the guys life is going to be a living h@ll anyway, probably so even without the BIL (ie. wife).
The inspector can only make sure the codes are followed. All Blue Dog did was ask him to be more scrutinizing than usual, he didn't ask him to do anything illegal. If the BIL is really good, he shouldn't have a problem.
I think that even without Blue Dog's request to the inspector, the guys life is going to be a living h@ll anyway, probably so even without the BIL (ie. wife).
Toolhorder
Well-known member
West side!
no way, i've met men so ***** whipped they'd eat sh*t from their spouses shoe if they were instructed. I have a feeling thats the case here so i agree with burning all bridges. Would you or anyone honestly feel comfortable taking this person on as a client again after this stunt? I wouldnt. Even the husband could of at least placed a call of courtesy after his wife finished using the reamer on him rather than letting the person he contracted work with find out like that. He kept his mouth shut so in my mind hes every bit as responsible as his idiot wife. And the nerve of the brother as well. He could of confirmed that the family sent no word of the whole ordeal and stood aside like a good boy should instead of being an a-hole about it making demands and threats. Whole family is dimented if you ask me.
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You're right, I've seen so-called men take verbal abuse and degrading behavior
from their ******* for god knows what reason.....
Not me, I've sent 2 ex's backin' along with more ex gfs than I want to remember....
I had no idea this thread would have turned into what it did when i made my original post. I was basically just making a rant about my unrealistic venture for a friday.
Steve in Mi, i apologize for verbally assaulting you in a public forum, you did not deserve that.
Let it go guys, i will let you know what happens on monday. I spent a couple hours today and prepared a nice pile of papers for the homeowner to sign and had discussions with other people in my industry as well as my attorney. I feel confident that the owner will not want to go down a different road then the one i have chosen under the circumstances.
Steve in Mi, i apologize for verbally assaulting you in a public forum, you did not deserve that.
Let it go guys, i will let you know what happens on monday. I spent a couple hours today and prepared a nice pile of papers for the homeowner to sign and had discussions with other people in my industry as well as my attorney. I feel confident that the owner will not want to go down a different road then the one i have chosen under the circumstances.
I don't think the dog did anything wrong! I pay contractors to do work around my houses all the time and if I did some stupid double cross like these people did I would expect serious confrontation. That’s why I always pay everyone on time and according to every signed contract. These owner get everything that’s coming to them, I'm just glade I’m not a contractor or I might not have handled it as well has the dog. Support!
CarCrafter
Well-known member
I wonder if the BIL is going to pick up and laborers to help out... hhmmm, I wonder if a visit from ICE would help this project along?
The only thing I think you did wrong Blue Dog was voice this all over the internet. As mentioned, the interwed is smaller than we think and alls it takes is one ******** to go hunt down the HO or your friend the lead inspector for LA to get you in a bind.
Maybe the law wasn't on your side regarding the wood, but that's a rediculous law and I'd have done the same.
Sounds like this guy will have enough trouble dealing with the **** storm he's started for himself and the BIL. Permits and materials will push the job off and family rarely ever meets the expectations of what a GC would.
I also would have thrown the guy off of YOUR job site the moment I arrived as previously mentioned. He's putting himself at risk of injury on YOUR site under YOUR insurance. I'd think even though you don't own the land, you could have had him removed once the cops showed up.
Either way, I hope it all works out for you and he at least makes ammends with you on Moday.
I also hope his wife comes down with a nasty Vag infection.
Maybe the law wasn't on your side regarding the wood, but that's a rediculous law and I'd have done the same.
Sounds like this guy will have enough trouble dealing with the **** storm he's started for himself and the BIL. Permits and materials will push the job off and family rarely ever meets the expectations of what a GC would.
I also would have thrown the guy off of YOUR job site the moment I arrived as previously mentioned. He's putting himself at risk of injury on YOUR site under YOUR insurance. I'd think even though you don't own the land, you could have had him removed once the cops showed up.
Either way, I hope it all works out for you and he at least makes ammends with you on Moday.
I also hope his wife comes down with a nasty Vag infection.
Justanoldguy
Well-known member
I fail to see how that is an admission.
He could have had it stocked in his own yard then returned it.
Is how all of your posts go? Cant wait to see what polarizing topic you throw up next...
Just kidding blue dog...
Hope next week goes better for you.-Kevin
Vinko
Well-known member
What a *****. Not only does he have to live with "her," but with himself as well. This ain't right.
Vinko
Well-known member
If I read your earlier messages right, you're going to ask some employees from the city to make his life miserable? If you really intend to do this (and more importantly, the city employees intend to help you), it's not something I'd post on the internet. Or maybe you're just venting.
Vinko
Well-known member
Just another question: if you're doing high-end homes in the City of LA (did I read that right???), 1/2 mil. doesn't really seem like a lot of work. Is that gross? Since you posted the figure, I'm being nosy
Vinko
Well-known member
Do you hire any Hispanic labor?
i wouldn't either the guy is a clown
Just another question: if you're doing high-end homes in the City of LA (did I read that right???), 1/2 mil. doesn't really seem like a lot of work. Is that gross? Since you posted the figure, I'm being nosy
1/2 million and plus were very common remodels up until about 2007.
And no i do not employ any hispanic labor.
Life as a contractor is hard enough during slow times, without having to take a hit like this. When hired to do a job, you expect this job to keep you and your employees busy until the job is complete and you can start the next job you have lined up. No one thinks about the employees and subcontractors affected when this job is just cancelled out of nowhere. Everyone has bills to pay, and when you're out of work for a few weeks because the husband doesn't wear the pants, you have every right to react the way you did.
You did nothing unethical, you took material back which you were not paid for, and were not installed, and mentioned to the inspector that he should be particularly difficult towards this job. By the sounds of things, a small job like this is not going to ruin your reputation. I find it interesting that you have done work for these people for the last 10 years, and this is the first time the BIL comes into the picture. Provides some insight as to how the job is going to turnout. I bet you get a phone call to come back and fix what the BIL screws up.
You did nothing unethical, you took material back which you were not paid for, and were not installed, and mentioned to the inspector that he should be particularly difficult towards this job. By the sounds of things, a small job like this is not going to ruin your reputation. I find it interesting that you have done work for these people for the last 10 years, and this is the first time the BIL comes into the picture. Provides some insight as to how the job is going to turnout. I bet you get a phone call to come back and fix what the BIL screws up.
bazzateer
Well-known member
That's right, but they must keep it and keep it safe. They must not dispose of it/return it etc as the courts may not rule in their favour.
I would have done the same Blue dog and I have. Some of the guys on this forum (and other forums) want to do nothing more then talk shitte. The next thing you know they will be talking about "clean kills" and killing small animals for kicks. We have some real dopes.
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