Knife Sharpening Fanatics: Need a power tool!

[Beerhippie]

Morning, y'all.

I currently have and use a Wicked Edge guided-angle sharpening rig to get and keep my knives terror sharp. Not a problem for me, as I never let them get dull.

The problem I have is when others want me to sharpen a knife--or five--that's duller than some of my hammers. With the WE set-up, it can take me an hour or more just to establish a new bevel from a bevelless blade.

I want to speed this up so I can possibly make some money from this, or at least be able to break even when sharpening friend's knives.

I'm considering two systems: Tomek T8 w/CBN wheels ($$$$) or a low-speed 2" X ? vertical belt, possibly water-cooled ($-$$$).

I just want to be able to quickly establish a bevel and repair edge damage, then finish on the WE system. Once I have a good bevel to work from, the WE takes minutes, not hours.

I should note that I've been putting scary sharp edges on knives by hand for some fifty years, but have gone to the guided system lately as my eyes and manual dexterity are no longer up to maintaining a uniform bevel. The WE fixes that for me.

Here's the rig (that was before my big shop cleaning push, so cut me some slack):

 

[swsman]

Look up Project Farm on YT. He has a good comparison video.

 

[Beerhippie]

Look up Project Farm on YT. He has a good comparison video.

Thanks, but that guy drives me nuts with his high-speed delivery!

He seems to cover a lot of interesting stuff, but, dude, take a chill pill.

 

[Dave455]

Just an observation, from a fellow cutlery enthusiast (albeit in another country) but the quality of blade grinding that I see varies enormously.

Some knives (not always the most costly) are superbly ground to a fine edge, and just need a couple of strokes to "whet" the edge (to use a Sheffield term).

However, many knives are frankly apalling, with a huge "whetted edge" that is borderline impossible to sharpen - the only options being to match the original angle exactly, or re do it. Is this the "bevel" you refer to?

I don't know why so many makers produce such awful blades. Well, I do, in some cases it's cost (just run them over the belt sander), in others it's to produce a blade that "looks" sharp to the uninitiated, and sometimes it's simply to hide an inconsistent grind.

Either way, if I've taken the effort to choose well ground knives, I can't be bothered wasting my time on a crappy one for someone else.

If asked, I usually come over all "grand master" and simply tell the owner that they have chosen "unwisely....". Once they are wise enough to choose a blade worthy of my efforts, they will have earned my time...!

 

[RTM]

I have a 1” vertical belt, great idea, poor execution in the Rikon. My local Farmers Market knife sharpener booth has 2 or 3 set up, not Rikon, with different grits. He uses almost worn out 600 or higher grit for knives that aren’t abused, gets a nice finish. Based on his recommendation, I but my highest grit on, and use it for most stuff.

For flat/ straight blades, I have the Veritas Mk II Power system, not great for knives.

 

[GeoBruin]

Morning, y'all.

I currently have and use a Wicked Edge guided-angle sharpening rig to get and keep my knives terror sharp. Not a problem for me, as I never let them get dull.

The problem I have is when others want me to sharpen a knife--or five--that's duller than some of my hammers. With the WE set-up, it can take me an hour or more just to establish a new bevel from a bevelless blade.

I want to speed this up so I can possibly make some money from this, or at least be able to break even when sharpening friend's knives.

I'm considering two systems: Tomek T8 w/CBN wheels ($$$$) or a low-speed 2" X ? vertical belt, possibly water-cooled ($-$$$).

I just want to be able to quickly establish a bevel and repair edge damage, then finish on the WE system. Once I have a good bevel to work from, the WE takes minutes, not hours.

I should note that I've been putting scary sharp edges on knives by hand for some fifty years, but have gone to the guided system lately as my eyes and manual dexterity are no longer up to maintaining a uniform bevel. The WE fixes that for me.

Here's the rig (that was before my big shop cleaning push, so cut me some slack):

So what's your question here? Are you looking for feedback on the two options you mentioned, or are you looking for other options?

 

[oldschoolcraft]

Thanks, but that guy drives me nuts with his high-speed delivery!

He seems to cover a lot of interesting stuff, but, dude, take a chill pill.

And at a talking speed of 650 words per minute, Project Farm is able to deliver 60 minutes of content in only 5 minutes of video. Very impressive!

 

[dnschmidt]

You already know the answer to your own question: Tomek

 

[oldschoolcraft]

Personally, I prefer to sharpen knives by hand and I have $500+ worth of diamond and ceramic stones and leather strops.

If the knife is a high quality custom knife, then using a grinder will cause some level of damage to it, even if you are an expert. Professional knife makers use grinders because of speed. It's like how a pro mechanic will use an impact, and a home gamer who cares about their old classic sports car might do everything by hand at the cost of it taking significantly longer.

If the knife is cheap, then go ahead and use a grinder. BUT the only way to get good at sharpening your high end custom knives by hand, is with a lot of practice. So I sharpen all of my cheap knives by hand, to get that hands on experience.

Alternatively you could just get a grinder to sharpen your cheap knives and then send your custom knives back to the knife maker to sharpen for you. Most will do it for free.

I dont think you can do a hollow ground edge by hand on a knife stone though, I think that requires a grinder. Possibly the same for convex but you might be able to get that with a lot of practice.

 

[Nick Rivers]

If you will be charging for your time and skill, then go with the Tomek T8 w/CBN wheels. Then your friends will become customers and no longer your friends....

If you want a cheaper option, get the vertical belt sander with an angle guide plate and a container of water next to it.

If you want the cheapest option, go with the MDF grit wheel on a bench grinder.

 

[niget2002]

I use the 1" belt sander with an angle guide, water bucket, and leather strop...

But I'm not a professional.

 

[minke]

I’m pleased using the non-motorized Spyderco sharpener https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details/204MF/Tri-Angle-Sharpmaker-reg-/77 . Just like the joke: “There are just two kinds of people: those who believe that there are just two kinds of people and those who don’t” Spyderco has simplified it’s sharpening world to bevels of 30° (15° each side) or 40° (20° each side). Good enough for me. Perhaps I have low standards as I seem to have only 40° blades.

 

[Squankum]

Thanks, but that guy drives me nuts with his high-speed delivery!

He seems to cover a lot of interesting stuff, but, dude, take a chill pill.

You might want to try adjusting the playback speed under settings. I've found one guy on YouTube (Dark Skies) speeds his stuff up for "excitement" or to sound better than he actually does, maybe, but in his case, I set the playback speed to 0.75 and he sounds like what is probably his normal self.

Go too slow and people sound drunk. Maybe that's okay when you're listening drunk, dunno.

 

[Nick Rivers]

You might want to try adjusting the playback speed under settings. I've found one guy on YouTube (Dark Skies) speeds his stuff up for "excitement" or to sound better than he actually does, maybe, but in his case, I set the playback speed to 0.75 and he sounds like what is probably his normal self.

Go too slow and people sound drunk. Maybe that's okay when you're listening drunk, dunno.

I watch Project Farm at 2X with the volume near mute, but I'll scrub through the video until the spreadsheet results pop up.

 

[Steve_P]

I'm sure this will bring screams from the $$$$ knife connoisseurs here, but I use a Work Sharp KO belt sharpener. It's fast, it works. I'm not sharpening high end knives, just good quality stuff; primarily my kitchen knives. A 400 grit belt does the job as long as you sharpen when you first notice dulling; I've found no reason to go finer, but again I'm sure there will be plenty of replies saying otherwise. When it passes the "paper cut" edge test, it's good enough for me.

 

[Steve_P]

Thanks, but that guy drives me nuts with his high-speed delivery!

He seems to cover a lot of interesting stuff, but, dude, take a chill pill.

If you watch his earliest videos, they were a much slower format. I don't know if he just sped himself up, or sped up the playback, but either way, you can adjust the speed on YT as desired. Unless it's something that I'm really interested in, I watch the first test and then click ahead for the spreadsheets; typically, there's no reason to see the same test on every brand.

 

[Beerhippie]

Thanks all!

@oldschoolcraft : The bad bevels some commercial knives come with is a problem. I recently sharpened a brand-new Ontario RAT3, this one:



on my Wicked Edge. I was expecting to spend maybe a half-hour on it, just walking through the grits from 400 to 2,200, then stropping, but NO. The factory bevel was over 30 degrees per side--more than I could actually measure. That's more oblique than the edge I put on shovels! I settled on a 23 DPS bevel and it took an hour to establish it using a 100 grit stone. The Ontario steel is HARD. I was surprised, as I've owned and sharpened several Ontario knives over the years and always been impressed with the quality and finish--including the factoy sharpening.

But mostly I mean "that guy" who brings in his kitchen knives, which were last sharpened NEVER, but have been used to cut on stone countertops and ceramic plates. These usually have no trace of an original bevel on the saw-tooth edge. For these, I just advise that the owner buys a Chef's Choice and be done with it--just get them out of the shop. Even a couple of professional chefs have brought in expensive knives that were horribly abused. If I could establish an initial bevel quickly, I could have those properly sharp in less than an hour.

Friends who want their treasured hunting knives sharpened are just as bad, but seem to take offense when I tell them I have shovels that are sharper--and prove it. Again, establishing a good bevel quickly would allow me to not offend them so much.

But I really like the finish, shape and quality of bevels I can achieve with the WE system. So what I'm looking for is just something I can get a good, clean initial bevel, at a known, controllable and repeatable set angle in a few minutes, then take the knife to the WE for a finish.

So I want something with good, easily set guides/rests that will produce repeatable angles--either flat ground or convex (hollow) bevels so I can finish up quickly on the WE. This is one reason I'm looking at the flat belt sanders, as the supported, flat belt and some good rests should make it fairly easy to do what I want.

I've known a couple of custom knife makers and they all use a flat belt to establish the initial bevel. I guess I should have thought of that.

So I guess now the question is where to look for a good, low (pref. controllable) speed flat belt sander? New, used, or build it myself? Using a water bath instead of a wetted belt would be fine.

 

[oldschoolcraft]

@Beerhippie

I'd recommend finding a local custom knife maker and asking if you can pay them for an hour or two of their time to teach you how to do what you want to do. That's what I did and it was well worth the money.

 

[Sal Bandini]

If you are reprofiling then try a coarser grit. You can get 50/80 grit for the WE, which is meant for aggressive metal removal. Those stones are cheaper than any power system you are looking at, and likely would have shaved lots of time off your effort.

 

[Beerhippie]

If you are reprofiling then try a coarser grit. You can get 50/80 grit for the WE, which is meant for aggressive metal removal. Those stones are cheaper than any power system you are looking at, and likely would have shaved lots of time off your effort.

Do you get a bump from WE? 'Cause you should--I just dropped the "dime" on a pair. Let's hope those are the answer, otherwise, I guess it's try to sell my WE set up--at a loss--and just go straight to the full-on Tormek T8 w/CBN wheels.

I must have $1,500 into the WE kit so far....

 

[Wamsutta]

Project Farm is able to deliver 60 minutes of content in only a 20 minute video. Very impressive!

I wish he'd do a comparison video on 1/4 drive universal sockets. I'm sure he could rig up something for measuring angles.

I already know which socket would win, but people would believe him more than they would believe me.

 

[Sal Bandini]

Do you get a bump from WE? 'Cause you should--I just dropped the "dime" on a pair. Let's hope those are the answer, otherwise, I guess it's try to sell my WE set up--at a loss--and just go straight to the full-on Tormek T8 w/CBN wheels.

I must have $1,500 into the WE kit so far....

LOL no. I have the KME system, as well as the Spyderco Sharpmaker. I was looking at the WE, but yeah, the cost adds up quickly.

 

[Firebrick43]

Kalamazoo 1SMVP is the machine to have

I have the 1SM and its pretty damn good.

A great young man and youtuber under "Steven Sharpens" used several in a portable sharpening system by reversing the direction and installing an angle block under the mount plate.

He convinced Kalamazoo to combine features of two different grinders and that begat the 1SMVP that you can adjust the angle and a longer and narrower platen for knife work!

Made in the USA as to boot!

He has three with two different grit belts and a leather strop belt but he is a pro. You can easily change belts on the kalamazoo and adjust tracking in less than 10 seconds

 

[Beerhippie]

LOL no. I have the KME system, as well as the Spyderco Sharpmaker. I was looking at the WE, but yeah, the cost adds up quickly.

Yeah, it does. Friends got real confused when I admitted how much I spent on the WE system...especially as I already have many hundreds in diamond, natural and water hand stones. I still use those when sharpening woodworking tools like chisels, etc, but as I mentioned above, I just don't have the eyesight or manual dexterity to maintain a nice, uniform bevel on both sides of a knife any more. I started to find my bevels turning into more "appleseed" and faceted profiles a few years back, instead of the perfectly flat and uniform ones I once produced. With the WE, I can make those again--if I have the patience.

 

[Beerhippie]

Kalamazoo 1SMVP is the machine to have

I have the 1SM and its pretty damn good.

A great young man and youtuber under "Steven Sharpens" used several in a portable sharpening system by reversing the direction and installing an angle block under the mount plate.

He convinced Kalamazoo to combine features of two different grinders and that begat the 1SMVP that you can adjust the angle and a longer and narrower platen for knife work!

Made in the USA as to boot!

He has three with two different grit belts and a leather strop belt but he is a pro. You can easily change belts on the kalamazoo and adjust tracking in less than 10 seconds

Thanks for those, Firebrick!

I like the TEFC motor on the Kalamazoo. Not only dustproof, but fairly waterproof. It's what we use for portable pumps in the brewery, and it would be safe to use a drip water system with it.

But I still need a rest to maintain the angles. That young guy was me... a long time ago. Of course, I was better lookin'!

Off to check out Kalamazoo tools....

You guys are not good for my budget!

 

[Firebrick43]

Thanks for those, Firebrick!

I like the TEFC motor on the Kalamazoo. Not only dustproof, but fairly waterproof. It's what we use for portable pumps in the brewery, and it would be safe to use a drip water system with it.

But I still need a rest to maintain the angles. That young guy was me... a long time ago. Of course, I was better lookin'!

Off to check out Kalamazoo tools....

You guys are not good for my budget!

There is an aftermarket adjustable angle rest for the 1SM but my memory fails me as to the company name. Its sort of odd as the belt remains going down and you stick the knife in and pull to the side. Not my cup of tea but several others on the knife forums liked them.

 

[Beerhippie]

There is an aftermarket adjustable angle rest for the 1SM but my memory fails me as to the company name. Its sort of odd as the belt remains going down and you stick the knife in and pull to the side. Not my cup of tea but several others on the knife forums liked them.

Wolverine? I don't like the idea of pinching the blade between the rest and the belt, either. Too easy to scratch the blade. Edge following is the way to go for that.

As for belt direction, if Kalamazoo could do it, it means the motor is reversible (pretty sure it's a common Dayton motor). A DPDT switch would do the trick of making it work either way. Not sure what they had to do to make the tracking work, but that kids one sure doesn't seem to have any extra parts.

Aww, hell. I can just build one myself for a few times the price of that one! It probably won't look as nice, to boot!

Anyone near here got a spare treadmill?

 

[Firebrick43]

Wolverine? I don't like the idea of pinching the blade between the rest and the belt, either. Too easy to scratch the blade. Edge following is the way to go for that.

It wasn't wolverine, I know them by their wood lathe turning tool jigs for grinders/sanders. That is the reason I don't try one as well and why I just set it against an angle block and carry it over to the belt.

It came to me, a Kally rest.

As for belt direction, if Kalamazoo could do it, it means the motor is reversible (pretty sure it's a common Dayton motor). A DPDT switch would do the trick of making it work either way. Not sure what they had to do to make the tracking work, but that kids one sure doesn't seem to have any extra parts.

Mine at least but I think all the Kalamazoo's have Baldor's. You do have to adjust tracking if switching direction but the its so easy as you just loosen the knob and twist the top shank/pulley/guard till you get tracking where you want it and retighten the knob. As the motors come you have to rewire to switch directions but yes, a proper switch and it could reverse.

Aww, hell. I can just build one myself for a few times the price of that one! It probably won't look as nice, to boot!

Anyone near here got a spare treadmill?

Ironically I was thinking of making something as well, but came across a review. They are simple and yet sturdy and good sanders. Its much slower than a standard belt grinder so its much less likely to burn the metal.

 

[Beerhippie]

It wasn't wolverine, I know them by their wood lathe turning tool jigs for grinders/sanders. That is the reason I don't try one as well and why I just set it against an angle block and carry it over to the belt.

It came to me, a Kally rest.

Mine at least but I think all the Kalamazoo's have Baldor's. You do have to adjust tracking if switching direction but the its so easy as you just loosen the knob and twist the top shank/pulley/guard till you get tracking where you want it and retighten the knob. As the motors come you have to rewire to switch directions but yes, a proper switch and it could reverse.

Ironically I was thinking of making something as well, but came across a review. They are simple and yet sturdy and good sanders. Its much slower than a standard belt grinder so its much less likely to burn the metal.

Baldor was what I meant. Brain fart.

I already have a fairly nice rest for a bench grinder that would probably be pretty easy to adapt to use with a belt.

 

[Beerhippie]

.....

If asked, I usually come over all "grand master" and simply tell the owner that they have chosen "unwisely....". Once they are wise enough to choose a blade worthy of my efforts, they will have earned my time...!

I often use a similar line... just not worth my time. Then they bring me their $1,000 Japanese or German or custom knife... which is also trashed, but at least I get satisfaction form sharpening it. And the pleasure of lecturing them on appropriate cutting surfaces and practices if they ever want it done again.

 

[cjarvis]

I love having a sharp knife, but the sharpening process is pure drudgery. I wanted a Tormek style sharpener, but I wasn’t willing to shell out that much change and wound up buying the Wen wet/dry sharpening system.

Wen Sharpener

Very similar to the Tormek for FAR less money and does exactly what I need it to do. I did go ahead and add a 600 grit CBN wheel from Woodturner’s Wonders and couldn’t be happier.

 

[Hohn]

Morning, y'all.

I currently have and use a Wicked Edge guided-angle sharpening rig to get and keep my knives terror sharp. Not a problem for me, as I never let them get dull.

The problem I have is when others want me to sharpen a knife--or five--that's duller than some of my hammers. With the WE set-up, it can take me an hour or more just to establish a new bevel from a bevelless blade.

I want to speed this up so I can possibly make some money from this, or at least be able to break even when sharpening friend's knives.

I'm considering two systems: Tomek T8 w/CBN wheels ($$$$) or a low-speed 2" X ? vertical belt, possibly water-cooled ($-$$$).

I just want to be able to quickly establish a bevel and repair edge damage, then finish on the WE system. Once I have a good bevel to work from, the WE takes minutes, not hours.

I should note that I've been putting scary sharp edges on knives by hand for some fifty years, but have gone to the guided system lately as my eyes and manual dexterity are no longer up to maintaining a uniform bevel. The WE fixes that for me.

Here's the rig (that was before my big shop cleaning push, so cut me some slack):

I have the T8. I solved my sharpening woes forever. I even splurged for the japanese waterstone finisher.

But it's just not as easy as throwing money at the problem. The Tormek still requires some skill to use and get great results. Because it's a slow speed machine, it's a slow grinder. Which is great for preserving temper and gentle to tools. But the Tormek is not the tool to reprofile and thin out a fat edge.

If you just want "yeah, that's pretty sharp" (say 150 BESS I'm guessing) You can get that easily on the T8 and it's almost fool proof.

But if you want elite level sharpness, you can park at the T8 all day and find that right as you think you're about to pass into nirvana you end up ruining the apex and you're back to the 150 range or so you started with.

I'm excited to have the TOrmek but disappointed that it wasn't the easy button to have super sharp knives without skill or massive time investment.

 

[rust in the eye]

Thanks, but that guy drives me nuts with his high-speed delivery!

He seems to cover a lot of interesting stuff, but, dude, take a chill pill.

I'd rather have this guy than the ones that go on and on with unrelated ramblings and babblings, self concious laughs, etc. TTC guy is just trying to get all that's needed said. That said he is a bit frantic.

 

[Cruzan80]

If you just want something to put in at a specific angle, maybe an old Hook-eye knife grinder (belt sander)?

 

[seber]

As an occasional knife maker, I use a 2' by 48" belt grinder. Since you are already adept at sharpening by hand, you should have not trouble working with a belt grinder. Establishing a bevel is very quick with that. You will also find a million other uses for it. Your bench grinder will become something other than a grinder.

 

[JradM]

Both my ideas were mentioned earlier in this thread, but I'm still going to reiterate them because they seem obvious to me:

1. Work Sharp
2. Coarser grits for the WE

Since you're not planning on finishing the edge on a powered sharpener, what's wrong with using the Ken Onion edition Work Sharp?

You can get an excellent edge from it if you want, but if all you're doing is establishing a bevel... just seems like a simple, fast and reasonably affordable solution. There's advantages to using a full-sized belt grinder, but you're not really going to realize them if you don't finish on it.

Secondly, you could just keep using the WE. If you're spending more than a couple minutes establishing your bevel - even on an abused knife - you just aren't starting out with a coarse-enough grit.

I like the sharpening videos from Outdoors55 on youtube. Watch him go from a deliberately flattened-edge to hair-whittling sharp in like 1.5 minutes free handing on a single diamond stone. Literal hair-whittling I mean - he'll show you with his microscope.

One of his overarching themes is that most people start out with too fine a grit to avoid "damaging" their knife, but that just makes for more work and room for error.

 

[Beerhippie]

I already ordered the 50/80 stones for the WE.

I've tried a Worksharp--borrowed from a buddy. The problem with it is that it's hard or impossible to make a flat bevel with the unsupported belt. I guess you could use it to establish a primary bevel and do the secondary bevel on the WE, but that kind of defeats the purpose.

It's also very easy to scratch the finish on a knife while using the WS, and difficult to get right up to the ricasso.

I've watched those videos, too. It wasn't that I was worried about "ruining" a blade with coarse stones, it was that they cost $115/pair and I've dumped a LOT of money into the WE pit so far--and now I'm in deeper yet.

 

[RoninB4]

Then they bring me their $1,000 Japanese or German or custom knife... which is also trashed, but at least I get satisfaction form sharpening it.

- I really hope you're not doing ANYTHING to a traditional hand forged Japanese blade except using uchiko and choji oil on it. The Gunto machine made blades are not what I'm talking about. Even if you have the stones I've seen many swords ruined by good intentions. I've put a lot of time/reading into this with a large variety of different stones. It's not something anybody should attempt without proper training.

 

[pizza]

i would say that knife sharpening fanatics don't need a power tool except for major work like reprofiling and thinning.

power tools are for fast material removal. sharpening is really about minimizing material removal and taking the most direct route to getting your apex. if you remove minimal material while sharpening, you greatly increase the life of the blade and reduce the frequency of maintenance (like thinning).

knife makers benefit much more from power tools.

if you use a power tool, be very careful not to get the metal too hot and ruin the heat treat.

 

[Beerhippie]

- I really hope you're not doing ANYTHING to a traditional hand forged Japanese blade except using uchiko and choji oil on it. The Gunto machine made blades are not what I'm talking about. Even if you have the stones I've seen many swords ruined by good intentions. I've put a lot of time/reading into this with a large variety of different stones. It's not something anybody should attempt without proper training.

Nor would I! I'm talking about modern high-end stuff, not the collectibles. I would never touch a flat-ground sword blade!

These are expensive blades used daily in the kitchen sometimes by professional chefs. They're some kind of status symbol. Other pro chefs use cheap-*** knives that are basically disposable, sharpened daily in a Chef's Choice and replaced frequently.