Koken Ratchets

[MrTq2002]

Looking at the difference in the 72t z series w/ rubber grip, vs the standard low tooth count with knurled grips.....whats yalls take on the lower tooth count? I prefer the knurled handles but I'm wondering how much that low of a tooth count would bite me in the end. I'm looking at both the 3/8 and 1/4 non flex.

My hope is they update their lower end line with a higher tooth count at some point too.

Edit: I'm asking cause the price difference is like 10 bucks so it's a tough call for me, and wanted some opinions.

 

[Chrome Vanadium Cody]

I have one that's 20 teeth. I'm a knurled grip fan and I think this is my favorite knurled grip ever. That said there are a lot of situations where 20 teeth is just not workable no matter how low the backdrag is. Maybe this one with 45 teeth would be a good middle ground? https://www.zoro.com/ko-ken-ratchet-handle-45-teeth-200mm-metal-handle-38-sq-drive-3752n/i/G004326035/?q=koken 3752n

 

[MrTq2002]

I've got a set of tekton/gearwrench ratchet that I use for everything currently. Just wanted to try something new, and since finding this site I've really been wanting to try the koken stuff. I may just roll the dice on the lower tooth count cause that one has the knob on the back that's not for me.

Figured I'd think on it a day or two.

 

[MrTq2002]

I have one that's 20 teeth. I'm a knurled grip fan and I think this is my favorite knurled grip ever. That said there are a lot of situations where 20 teeth is just not workable no matter how low the backdrag is. Maybe this one with 45 teeth would be a good middle ground? https://www.zoro.com/ko-ken-ratchet-handle-45-teeth-200mm-metal-handle-38-sq-drive-3752n/i/G004326035/?q=koken 3752n

Still figuring this out but my response was to this.

What percent does the low tooth count work for? Got no problem getting other stuff out for when it doesn't work.

 

[Toyo72]

KokenUSA is having a sale today and tomorrow, 25% off, and they do free shipping as well.

Koken USA 4th of July Sale

www.garagejournal.com

 

[Chrome Vanadium Cody]

Still figuring this out but my response was to this.

What percent does the low tooth count work for? Got no problem getting other stuff out for when it doesn't work.

For me about 60% but I have a weird job. Lot of machine and welding jig setup. Straight automotive would be less but I’m not sure how much.

Koken prices are really good lately, not sure if the yen is down or what. I just sold a Gearwrench 84 tooth ratchet to upgrade to a Koken 72 tooth and I’m only out the price of a super burrito. Key places to check would be Amazon Japan with free shipping, Zoro if finessing a 20% discount code, or like the other poster mentioned Koken USA and Palmac are having 4th of July sales.

 

[midorix]

I got both knurled low teeth count and the Z series. I found 3/8 drive to be not significant impact in usefulness for lower teeth count and I really enjoy using it. Koken's knurled handle is perfect and the finish is impeccable. Limitations are more driven by head size than teeth count (hence I use KTC BRSWL pictured based on situation). For 1/4 inch, I prefer the higher teeth count as I usually use 1/4 for tighter spaces (recently purchased 1/4 inch Koken 72t set and it’s very nice).

Also check out the Project Farm's latest 1/4 inch ratchet comparison. It gives you an idea on the swing arc and he proved that teeth count is not the only thing that makes any specific ratchet limitation (interesting that standard Koken didn't do so well on swing arc).

And don't count on Koken introducing 72t to non Z series. Took Koken 2 years to introduce the 1/4 after they already completed the 3/8 with 72t and 1/4 72T prototype was already available. Easy solution is to get both but I know financially, that makes no sense. My recommendation is get knurled for 3/8 and 72T for the 1/4 if you had to pick.

 

[CHI_Tool&Die]

If you are doing modern car work or even furniture/building, don't get the regular Ko-ken ratchets. The lower tooth count and head size will not be your friend. I dumped all my Williams 36-tooth and Proto 24-tooth ratchets because of the limitations. I found so many times when I could not get the next tooth to engage with the lower tooth ratchets. 72-tooth ratchets are way, way better for cramped work and I'd argue are really the sweet spot for tooth count.

 

[Dave455]

I have several of the regular KoKen ratchets with the low tooth count.

They are smooth to use, the backdrag is low, and I haven’t had any issues using them.

I prefer steel handles too, and I wouldn’t change what I have for Z seies.

Some considerations - you refer to KoKen’s regular line as their “lower end” line. It isn’t, they are of comparable quality.

What the Z Series is, is a compact line, and therein lies the answer to your query - if space is a premium, go for the Z Series. Appreciate though, that the handles are small (as befits “compact” tools) and only available with the hard plastic handle.

 

[VolvoRyan]

What'cha working on? SK's classic 3/8" round heads have 40 teeth, and those are still surprisingly viable for a lot of applications. When a different ratchet comes out, it's usually for leverage or clearance.

-Ryan

 

[MrTq2002]

Hondas, ford's, mazdas, dodges, and some Japanese bikes.

I just ordered the knurled kokens, so we shall see!

 

[F-22]

Project Farm testing is cool but the results do not always seem the most useful. Sometimes he feels a bit biased too.

Some things that bother me here - for example, the failure torque. I remember he tested the ratcheting screwdrivers for that but did not include the results saying "they are all strong enough" even though some actually were way stronger than others (and the LTT screwdriver was among the weaker ones, I think the stronger mechanisms withstood twice as much torque). Now with these ratchets there's just a ~30% difference between the strongest and the weakest and he does include it.

Considering the largest standard socket for 1/4" drive is 13mm, meant to tighten M8 screws, and the highest 12.9 grade high tension M8 screw is still supposed to be tightened under 50Nm... All the ratchets were actuall capable of tightening even a high tension 12.9 grade M10 screw but none of them could tighten the next size (an M12), so that difference told very little.

Regarding how easy it is to flick over, I actually don't want it to be too easy, and prefer a nice feel on the switch lever. I wouldn't be surprised some of the nicer brands in fact revised their switch mechanisms to provide a nice feedback from the lever instead of going for the least amount of resistance possible.


And in regard to backdrag, it would be interesting to test it after the ratchet mechanisms has been used for a bit, as they can sometimes loosen up. Maybe just spin it for a bit with a power drill or something. Would be interesting to measure that difference too. And also, regreasing it can make a notable difference, some ratchets are not well greased from the factory.

 

[teagueo]

I still take the failure torque number to be a decent indicator of the longevity of the ratchet mechanism. Using any of these 1/4" drive ratchets sensibly, it would take a helluva lot of force on the tiny handle to break them though.

Most surprising thing to me from the Project Farm test was that the TRO Titanium ratchet had better strength and lower back drag than both the Nepros AND the Koken - there may be a spike in Seppuku if they see this video....

Another interesting thing to look at is that the LTT screwdriver excelled in low back drag at the expense of strength. Messing around, I put this together to see if strength was correlated with back drag:

 

[F-22]

I still take the failure torque number to be a decent indicator of the longevity of the ratchet mechanism. Using any of these 1/4" drive ratchets sensibly, it would take a helluva lot of force on the tiny handle to break them though.

Well, it's still debatable... Finer teeth with more teeth in engagement should make for a stronger ratchet in theory. But on the other hand here's how coarse cement mixer gears are, and those work for decades in an environments that are extremely contaminated...



Besides, the failure torque does not correlate to durability. I think all the ratchets tested failed suddenly with some sort of a crack. Most commonly the actual drive end snapped off, or some part of the mechanism inside broke. For long term durability I wouldn't be surprised if the Koken would last the longest - simply cause there's more material on the teeth that would have to wear away for them to slip compared to fine tooth ratchets. But ultimately, long term durability is probably more than fine on all of them.

Most surprising thing to me from the Project Farm test was that the TRO Titanium ratchet had better strength and lower back drag than both the Nepros AND the Koken - there may be a spike in Seppuku if they see this video....

Sure but that one is a prototype so very likely they used hand-fitted components and even some minor adjustments to components to make them work together perfectly... Probably not something that could be achieved in any larger scale production. And would be interesting if the other ratchets "loosen up" after some use. I definitely feel like my Nepros 1/4" is a lot smoother and with less backdrag than when it was brand new out of the box. The backdrag out of the box almost left me a bit disappointed, but today I feel like it's really nice and easy to spin.

 

[teagueo]

Well, it's still debatable... Finer teeth with more teeth in engagement should make for a stronger ratchet in theory.

With gear geometry, it's the contact area between the gear teeth and the pawls that matter, regardless of tooth count. Wider gears are typically very strong (thick ratchet heads).

A coarse tooth gear can be stronger than a 120 tooth mechanism if there's more area in contact.

The accuracy of the pocket where the gear/pawls sit plays in as well. If it is off, there will be poor gear mesh engagement - the strength falls way off.

Besides, the failure torque does not correlate to durability.

Fatigue strength over time is different than ultimate failure strength, for sure.

A ratchet that fails at say 60 ft-lbs on a one off test could probably be assumed to have a shorter fatigue life than one that failed at 87 ft-lbs.

Most of it is materials science. Ductility, hardness, forging ratio (how many times the stock was reduced from it's original dimensions) all play into whether the gear will have a long life, or just have a high ultimate strength, but with a low cyclic fatigue life.

But ultimately, long term durability is probably more than fine on all of them.

Agreed. As long as you're not busting loose lugnuts or going above 13/14 mm sockets, they all should be fine.

Sure but that one is a prototype so very likely they used hand-fitted components and even some minor adjustments to components to make them work together perfectly

You're talking to the guy who designed it. The machining tolerances on this ratchet are much lower than a mass produced one.

No fiddling is need actually - for example: on most ratchets, if you place the cover plate into it's pocket, the fit is loose enough to fall out. Ours presses into place and stays put without screws, right off the mill.

Most tools are made with large tolerance ranges so they fit together as an assembly even if they're out of spec. That's the cheaper way.

Better fitment is important with a weaker material like Titanium vs Steel.

 

[F-22]

With gear geometry, it's the contact area between the gear teeth and the pawls that matter, regardless of tooth count. Wider gears are typically very strong (thick ratchet heads).

A coarse tooth gear can be stronger than a 120 tooth mechanism if there's more area in contact.

The accuracy of the pocket where the gear/pawls sit plays in as well. If it is off, there will be poor gear mesh engagement - the strength falls way off.

Yes, I meant - for a given gear diameter, a finer tooth gear with more teeth in contact with the pawl will have considerably more contact area than a coarse tooth gear using the same pawl size. But for sure it can be a lot more complex too (for example every individual tooth of a coarse tooth gear will have a larger shear area and resistance than an individual tooth in a fine tooth gear etc...).

You're talking to the guy who designed it. The machining tolerances on this ratchet are much lower than a mass produced one.

That's really cool, congratulations on making such a nice ratchet. It's got some really cool and unique features for sure (even if not very applicable to me), but I assume its main purpose is for a lightweight high end portable tool kit?

Also, have you maybe also considered using a sort of a sprag clutch (like the gearless Snap On)? I'd love to hear your opinion on that. I assume the downsides are it's not necessarily the least backdrag, and probably demands a larger ratchet head than a regular ratcheting mechanism.

 

[teagueo]

Yes, I meant - for a given gear diameter, a finer tooth gear with more teeth in contact with the pawl will have considerably more contact area than a coarse tooth gear using the same pawl size. But for sure it can be a lot more complex too (for example every individual tooth of a coarse tooth gear will have a larger shear area and resistance than an individual tooth in a fine tooth gear etc...).



That's really cool, congratulations on making such a nice ratchet. It's got some really cool and unique features for sure (even if not very applicable to me), but I assume its main purpose is for a lightweight high end portable tool kit?

Also, have you maybe also considered using a sort of a sprag clutch (like the gearless Snap On)? I'd love to hear your opinion on that. I assume the downsides are it's not necessarily the least backdrag, and probably demands a larger ratchet head than a regular ratcheting mechanism.

Yeah, there's surprisingly a lot to it even for for something so simple as a ratchet. The limiting factor is generally the square drive. A large radius helps, but it's really down to the gear manufacturing process and the alloy (and heat treatment) used.

That's really cool, congratulations on making such a nice ratchet. It's got some really cool and unique features for sure (even if not very applicable to me), but I assume its main purpose is for a lightweight high end portable tool kit?

Thanks man. Believe it or not, there are cases where having a tool half the weight does matter.

Avg 1/4" ratchet weight on the test was 118g. Ours is 55g. With acceptable strength (better than Koken and Nepros!) and the lowest back drag.

If all your gear weighs half of what's typical...you can see where I'm going with this.

The people who actually NEED a tool like this is pretty rare. We've had interest from off-roaders, an Italian rally team, Baja Trophy truck teams and a guy with a Catamaran? That last one I don't really understand.

In my own case - I have one backpack that I take with me while traveling and it goes with me absolutely everywhere. I can't take tools at all unless they're light, and I don't like relying on moto repair shops.

Plus, the ratchet looks badass and feels awesome to use. Honestly, the market is oversaturated with ratchets, but there's nothing like this one. It's the only way to compete with the big guys is to make your own category.

 

[scooby074]

and a guy with a Catamaran? That last one I don't really understand.

If i was to guess, hes interested because of Ti's salt water corrosion resistance.

 

[Badgerstate]

Looking at the difference in the 72t z series w/ rubber grip, vs the standard low tooth count with knurled grips.....whats yalls take on the lower tooth count? I prefer the knurled handles but I'm wondering how much that low of a tooth count would bite me in the end. I'm looking at both the 3/8 and 1/4 non flex.

My hope is they update their lower end line with a higher tooth count at some point too.

Edit: I'm asking cause the price difference is like 10 bucks so it's a tough call for me, and wanted some opinions.

I wouldnt even consider anything less than 72 teeth, especially if its only a $10 difference. If you looking at Ko-ken, $10 shouldnt be an issue.

 

[Chrome Vanadium Cody]

Project Farm testing is cool but the results do not always seem the most useful. Sometimes he feels a bit biased too.

Some things that bother me here - for example, the failure torque. I remember he tested the ratcheting screwdrivers for that but did not include the results saying "they are all strong enough" even though some actually were way stronger than others (and the LTT screwdriver was among the weaker ones, I think the stronger mechanisms withstood twice as much torque). Now with these ratchets there's just a ~30% difference between the strongest and the weakest and he does include it.

Considering the largest standard socket for 1/4" drive is 13mm, meant to tighten M8 screws, and the highest 12.9 grade high tension M8 screw is still supposed to be tightened under 50Nm... All the ratchets were actuall capable of tightening even a high tension 12.9 grade M10 screw but none of them could tighten the next size (an M12), so that difference told very little.

Regarding how easy it is to flick over, I actually don't want it to be too easy, and prefer a nice feel on the switch lever. I wouldn't be surprised some of the nicer brands in fact revised their switch mechanisms to provide a nice feedback from the lever instead of going for the least amount of resistance possible.


And in regard to backdrag, it would be interesting to test it after the ratchet mechanisms has been used for a bit, as they can sometimes loosen up. Maybe just spin it for a bit with a power drill or something. Would be interesting to measure that difference too. And also, regreasing it can make a notable difference, some ratchets are not well greased from the factory.

I really agree with your last point. Testing backdrag right out of the box is misleading. Some really need to be broken in. It's like doing a linemans pliers comparison video and rating Klein the worst because they are shipped so stiff.

 

[American Locomotive]

Also check out the Project Farm's latest 1/4 inch ratchet comparison. It gives you an idea on the swing arc and he proved that teeth count is not the only thing that makes any specific ratchet limitation (interesting that standard Koken didn't do so well on swing arc).

What is interesting about the Koken not doing well in that test? I believe that particular Koken ratchet is 24 tooth model?

I also seem to recall an earlier thread on here mentioning that the TRO ratchet actually used a Koken anvil/drive with their own custom pawl? Am I mistaken?

 

[Steve_P]

Project Farm testing is cool but the results do not always seem the most useful. Sometimes he feels a bit biased too.

Some things that bother me here - for example, the failure torque. I remember he tested the ratcheting screwdrivers for that but did not include the results saying "they are all strong enough" even though some actually were way stronger than others (and the LTT screwdriver was among the weaker ones, I think the stronger mechanisms withstood twice as much torque). Now with these ratchets there's just a ~30% difference between the strongest and the weakest and he does include it.

Considering the largest standard socket for 1/4" drive is 13mm, meant to tighten M8 screws, and the highest 12.9 grade high tension M8 screw is still supposed to be tightened under 50Nm... All the ratchets were actuall capable of tightening even a high tension 12.9 grade M10 screw but none of them could tighten the next size (an M12), so that difference told very little.

Regarding how easy it is to flick over, I actually don't want it to be too easy, and prefer a nice feel on the switch lever. I wouldn't be surprised some of the nicer brands in fact revised their switch mechanisms to provide a nice feedback from the lever instead of going for the least amount of resistance possible.


And in regard to backdrag, it would be interesting to test it after the ratchet mechanisms has been used for a bit, as they can sometimes loosen up. Maybe just spin it for a bit with a power drill or something. Would be interesting to measure that difference too. And also, regreasing it can make a notable difference, some ratchets are not well greased from the factory.

I don't think he's biased at all. But when he gives a recommendation, cost factors heavily into his recommendations- because his target audience is the casual DIYer shopping on Amazon; not the GJ tool snobs that will pay twice as much for something because it's nicer, and more enjoyable to use, but not necessarily much better. For something consumable like utility knife blades, sandpaper, grinding wheels.... the cost vs lifespan makes total sense. But for a tool that is supposed to last a home-user decades, I think that most people here are willing to pay extra for something that is actually nicer, even though it might last the same as a less expensive item. But most of his viewers want cost as a major factor, which I understand.

I agree with running the ratchets on a drill to break them in - he could do a before and after 3 minute drill run time backdrag test type comparison. If you comment to one of his reviews in the first few days, if not longer, he apparently reads every comment. And acknowledges suggestions. So I would say to recommend the ratchet break in for future tests in the comments. Of course, if he runs them for 3 minutes on a drill, someone here will say it's not enough and needs to be 5 minutes, and then someone will say 10 minutes.... As far as greasing them, that will lead to more issues and muddy the waters; most 90T designs don't like something like Super Lube grease in 1/4 drive because the pawl sticks. 3/8 drive 90T is iffy with Superlube. 1/2 90T is generally ok because of the gear and pawl size. So, if he runs them with 5W-30, someone here will say that's not ideal because....

The bottom line is that he puts out a review video essentially weekly, and he can't get into all the possible minutiae that we can come up with.

 

[CHI_Tool&Die]

I don't think he's biased at all. But when he gives a recommendation, cost factors heavily into his recommendations- because his target audience is the casual DIYer shopping on Amazon; not the GJ tool snobs that will pay twice as much for something because it's nicer, and more enjoyable to use, but not necessarily much better. For something consumable like utility knife blades, sandpaper, grinding wheels.... the cost vs lifespan makes total sense. But for a tool that is supposed to last a home-user decades, I think that most people here are willing to pay extra for something that is actually nicer, even though it might last the same as a less expensive item. But most of his viewers want cost as a major factor, which I understand.

I agree with running the ratchets on a drill to break them in - he could do a before and after 3 minute drill run time backdrag test type comparison. If you comment to one of his reviews in the first few days, if not longer, he apparently reads every comment. And acknowledges suggestions. So I would say to recommend the ratchet break in for future tests in the comments. Of course, if he runs them for 3 minutes on a drill, someone here will say it's not enough and needs to be 5 minutes, and then someone will say 10 minutes.... As far as greasing them, that will lead to more issues and muddy the waters; most 90T designs don't like something like Super Lube grease in 1/4 drive because the pawl sticks. 3/8 drive 90T is iffy with Superlube. 1/2 90T is generally ok because of the gear and pawl size. So, if he runs them with 5W-30, someone here will say that's not ideal because....

The bottom line is that he puts out a review video essentially weekly, and he can't get into all the possible minutiae that we can come up with.

I’m ok with him measuring backdrag right out of the package just because 99% of people will use it immediately after opening it. And then, like you said, the ratchet won’t be used daily so it will take some time to break in for a DYI guy. So, I think it’s a fair test keeping in mind the target audience.

 

[F-22]

I don't think he's biased at all.

Eh, really depends. Sometimes it's just very fishy. Another video that comes to mind was about car jacks. There were some made in USA jacks that felt like he tried to promote. You can see on the video that when the car fell on them they got bent out of shape but he did not even mention it and from then on filmed videos in a way to not show it clearly. That really disappointed me. And when the chinese jacks got bent out of shape he definitely mentioned it...

he apparently reads every comment. And acknowledges suggestions.

I noticed that but the replies are very generic so I'm not sure if he's actually reading through. Even to questions or suggestions the replies I saw from him were always very generic...

 

[bpwoodworking]

I really enjoy his reviews but like any torture test review I think it should be taken with a grain of salt.

It also sometimes highlights the obvious, like that QR ratchets are weaker than solid.

If I had my druthers, I would like to see a solid drive 1/4” ratchet against a 3/8” drive in a 1/4” body. So that the take-away is ‘how much can I push this style vs that style’

Could work in a few of these style ratchets to the usual test.

Otherwise just seeing where 1/4” ratchets break isn’t especially useful.

Much rather see the gears after excessive use.

 

[seber]

Ultimate strength of ratchet teeth is directly related to shear area. But ratchets fail through wear. The two are only marginally related if at all. For that reason, I don't pay any attention to ultimate strength tests.

 

[teagueo]

Max torque tests weed out low very low-quality gear mechanisms if there's an abnormally low failure strength. It's also an indicator of your factor of safety on larger fasteners. If your gearset fails at 75 ft-lbs, you're not going to be torquing down many grade 12.9 M10's @ 70 ft-lbs.

You wouldn't be running out to buy the Husky if it failed at 50 ft-lbs when all the others were up around 70.

Ultimate strength of ratchet teeth is directly related to shear area.

True. You must be an engineer lol. I was trying to simplify things for a tool forum since it can get as complicated as you like.

The tooth shear area depends on how much of the gear teeth are engaged by the pawl. With misaligned gear mesh, you're heavily loading a pinpoint area lessening the shear area = early failure.

Here's the tooth contact patch (ideal) in blue:



Sheared gear tooth:



Gear shear area shown in red:

But ratchets fail through wear.

They do if used at appropriate torques.

They can also fail under excessive load. This is why the square drive is the limiting factor under high torque if the gear engagement is solid.

 

[bpwoodworking]

Good points, I should clarify that I don’t mean to suggest the information to be useless entirely but more so that I think it would be additionally helpful to have some other variables to see how they contribute to or take away from strength.

Two differently geared ratchets from the same manufacturer or two different drive sizes in the 1/4 body would be interesting information.

 

[MarcSeattle]

I found a link on Amazon for the long-handled ⅜ ratchet (280mm) for only $63 with free shipping. This is the best price I've seen on this. Anyone seen a better price?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BXCY8DJZ/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[Retired dozer fixer]

I don’t know how in the hell I repaired heavy equipment for 30 years with coarse tooth ratchets. You guys act like you can’t fix anything without a 99+ tooth count ratchet. Those dam things didn’t come about till I was almost retired. Fire away. I’ve got thick skin

 

[liliysdad]

I don’t know how in the hell I repaired heavy equipment for 30 years with coarse tooth ratchets. You guys act like you can’t fix anything without a 99+ tooth count ratchet. Those dam things didn’t come about till I was almost retired. Fire away. I’ve got thick skin

The vast majority of my ratchets are 36 tooth Snap On. They seem to get what I need done. I have a couple of Dual 80s and Matco 88s…and I grab the 36s almost every time.

 

[GeoBruin]

I don’t know how in the hell I repaired heavy equipment for 30 years with coarse tooth ratchets. You guys act like you can’t fix anything without a 99+ tooth count ratchet. Those dam things didn’t come about till I was almost retired. Fire away. I’ve got thick skin

The vast majority of my ratchets are 36 tooth Snap On. They seem to get what I need done. I have a couple of Dual 80s and Matco 88s…and I grab the 36s almost every time.

Yeah, you guys are right. Just because technology moves forward and they create better tools, that doesn't mean we should actually buy/use them! I mean, what are these manufacturers trying to pull with their "innovation"? How dare they give us more choices? We should have to bust our knuckles just like our grand pappy's did!

 

[liliysdad]

Not at all…I do like newer stuff. I simply don’t find the older stuff ineffective or obsolete as so many do.

I am too cheap to buy new, but I really like truck brand tools. Older, lower tooth count ratchets are cheaper and more readily available on the secondary market. I’d rather have a 36 tooth Snap On or Williams than an new 80+ tooth Taiwan ratchet

A lot of that is nothing more than nostalgia and sentimentality, and I’m ok with that.

 

[Chrome Vanadium Cody]

I like smooth low tooth count ratchets but I just notice a ton of difference in usability between 20-24 tooth ratchets and 30-45 tooth ones. Of what I've tried low tooth Koken plus classic Proto and Cornwell pearheads, or anything low tooth by Gray Canada are all so smooth that it's splitting hairs to compare their backdrag and I can barely tell the difference. So it really does mainly come down to tooth count for the swing arc here. I had a time where the 24 tooth Proto wouldn't do it but the 30 tooth Cornwell would. It sounds ridiculous but the difference in ideal arc swing between a 24 tooth and 30 tooth ratchet is the same as the difference between a 48 tooth and an 80 tooth.

 

[65k10]

I don’t know how in the hell I repaired heavy equipment for 30 years with coarse tooth ratchets. You guys act like you can’t fix anything without a 99+ tooth count ratchet. Those dam things didn’t come about till I was almost retired. Fire away. I’ve got thick skin

I partially agree. I have some coarse tooth ratchets kicking around mostly in the form of the Proto 24 tooth or Williams 36 tooth. Usually they get the job done just fine without any fuss and things like minimum swing arc or low back drag are of no real importance.

The flip side is the modern fine tooth ratchets get the job done with the bonus of making certain tasks easier thanks to having a finer tooth count. Plus most of the time when buying from someone like Snap On or Matco, the ratchets I want only come as fine tooth, so I cannot really buy a low tooth count ratchet in those cases.

To kind of tie this back into Koken ratchets, a few years ago I put two Koken 1/2 and I think one 3/8 ratchet into my shop cart alongside my dual 80 Snap On ratchets. The short lesson was that while the Kokens were fine ratchets, sometimes the low tooth count did hamper them and I had to go back for a snap on. After a while I decided to take the Kokens out because in general the Snap On duals 80s could do everything the kokens were capable of doing and more thanks to being fine toothed. The Kokens did have some minor advantages when it came to things like head weight and size along with the nice handle knurling. The trouble was that was not enough to justify the space they took up on the cart and they got moved elsewhere.

I'm not in the camp of everything has to be fine toothed and coarse tooth ratchets are useless, but I will say that the added capability of the modern fine tooth ratchet is hard to ignore. That translates into, if I am looking at buying a ratchet for whatever use, I typically opt for a fine tooth from a reputable brand if the budget allows for it.

ETA. One thing I want to add is I think how much things like tooth count in a ratchet matters to a person depends on what they work on. Normally I’m just doing repair and maintenance on personally own farm equipment. Most of the time most any standard 1/4 and 3/8 ratchet does fine and I only get picky about tooth count and ratchet design is on my long 1/2 ratchets where I have some preferences. When I do have to mess with a vehicle I am suddenly much more appreciative of my fine tooth 1/4 and 3/8 flex heads.

 

[MarcSeattle]

If I worked on heavy equipment out in the dirt (like farm equipment in my youth) then my priorities would be strength and well-sealed against dirt and water. If the fasteners are huge then backdrag isn't important.

On the other hand, we probably wouldn't find a ¾" Proto 24-tooth ratchet in a MotoGP or F1 team garage.

Horses for courses, as they say. A fine-toothed low-backdrag ratchet that is as smooth as a fine watch is a certain horse for a particular course.

 

[AEAdam]

I don’t know how in the hell I repaired heavy equipment for 30 years with coarse tooth ratchets. You guys act like you can’t fix anything without a 99+ tooth count ratchet. Those dam things didn’t come about till I was almost retired. Fire away. I’ve got thick skin

You asked for it:

Modern ratchets are just WAY better than ratchets used to be. They are as strong as breaker bars. Low back drag can be faster, depending on accessibility etc. But just nicer to use. They don’t reverse under load.

Right to point out one can have a coarse ratchet with low back drag. Koken has done it.

Right to point out that newer ratchets aren‘t always better. High strength doesn’t help when you don’t need it. When a fastener’s friction is low, you really can just use your fingers. Back drag is not a show stopper.

Wrong to imply these new ratchet designs aren’t better, don’t offer more utility, because you, me, others were able to fix things in the past.

 

[F-22]

I don’t know how in the hell I repaired heavy equipment for 30 years with coarse tooth ratchets. You guys act like you can’t fix anything without a 99+ tooth count ratchet. Those dam things didn’t come about till I was almost retired. Fire away. I’ve got thick skin

Ratchets don't do anything that a fixed tool couldn't, but they do make life easier. Like you can strip wires with a knife or your teeth, but an automatic stripper is so much faster and more convenient. Even sockets exist just cause it's cheap and convenient - dedicated tubular box spanners and regular wrenches can do anything if you have enough of them, they'll have next to no play but you'd need a couple different offset versions to make them usable in the tightest areas. But some sockets and extensions make way more sense to own.

 

[oldschoolcraft]

Modern ratchets are just WAY better than ratchets used to be. They are as strong as breaker bars.

Damn! Will breaker bars be obsolete in the near future?

 

[Retired dozer fixer]

You asked for it:

Modern ratchets are just WAY better than ratchets used to be. They are as strong as breaker bars. Low back drag can be faster, depending on accessibility etc. But just nicer to use. They don’t reverse under load.

Right to point out one can have a coarse ratchet with low back drag. Koken has done it.

Right to point out that newer ratchets aren‘t always better. High strength doesn’t help when you don’t need it. When a fastener’s friction is low, you really can just use your fingers. Back drag is not a show stopper.

Wrong to imply these new ratchet designs aren’t better, don’t offer more utility, because you, me, others were able to fix things in the past.

You aren’t much of a mechanic if you’re using a ratchet in place of a breaker bar. Ratchets were never ment for that job. Hence the name BREAKER bar. Don’t have much respect for someone that puts pipes on ratchet handles. Someone else must be supplying your tools. I buy my own a cost too much to needlessly destroy. Always a better way to do a job. Most of my career was spent working in the field out of a truck. When you don’t have 25 extra of the same thing with you, you’ll use a little care. Flame on boys