Let’s talk about multiple 220 needs

[ovilla]

So, I now have four things needing 220 in my shop: BendPak, COATS 1050 wheel balancer, Lincoln 180, and my new 80 Gal Two Stage compressor. I have only ONE 220 outlet in my garage so for now it’s primarily plugged into the air compressor, and whenever I need to I run a long 220 40’ extension cord over to whatever else needs 220. It’s just me working in my home garage so I don’t need everything on at the same time. The BendPak does need 220 and air, but it’s very little air.

How’s everyone tackling the 220 multi use/need issue? Do you have dedicated 220 outlets for all of your equipment? Anybody have or make a 220 electrical hose reel? Just thinking that might be safer than having to run a thick long extension cord across the shop.

 

[mike93lx]

You really should have 4 circuits. What size feeder is in the shop? Panel? I absolutely certain that all of those don't use the same connection type and they have different requirements.

A sub panel with a run to each tool might make sense, if you don't have room in the current panel

 

[sberry]

All of those are things I would want plugged in. Not all may use the same breaker.

 

[ezzzzzzz]

I wired 5 dedicated 50amp outlets (Bridgeport, lathe, band saw, 2 for welders) and 2 dedicated 30amp for the lift and air compressor. I also made 3 50amp extension cords with twist lock connectors for work anywhere I needed to be. It's overkill but more convenient than plugging/unplugging equipment everytime I using my gear.

 

[dave*99]

Compressor is on a 240V 20A circuit with receptacle.
Welder is on a 240V 50A circuit with receptacle.
Lift is on a 240V 30A circuit hardwired with disconnect.
Tablesaw, jointer-planer, bandsaw, thickness planer, radial arm saw all on 1 240V 20A circuit with receptacles near each tool.

Best to use proper wire size and breaker for the varied requirements of your tools.

The supply voltage in the USA is 240V, not 220.

 

[dcg9381]

How’s everyone tackling the 220 multi use/need issue? Do you have dedicated 220 outlets for all of your equipment? Anybody have or make a 220 electrical hose reel? Just thinking that might be safer than having to run a thick long extension cord across the shop.

I standardized on the 50A "RV connector" (14-50R) as we have an RV and often have people with RVs over to visit. This outlet type is setup to handle up to 50A, so it should do what you need, but you risk having too big a breaker for your tool in many cases.

Not all of my outlets are wired to 50A - I have a few on 10ga wire and 30A breakers, but 30A of 240V is still fine for most "large" RVs. These are still on 14-50R connectors, but I do put "30A" labels on them just to remind me.

I have 6 of these connection points on or around the shop. I use a Siemens Talon sub-panel at anything outside, which costs about $160, has 2 additional outlet types, GFCI, and has the 14-50R connector also.

For my welder, which is "portable" (it mounts to the front of my side-by-side) - I have a 50' extension cable, 240V with the 14-50 connector on it.. For any length beyond that, I use a generator setup.

Basically my use is RV or welder - I don't have a 3rd 240v tool set.. For a compressor, I'd hard wire it with correct breaker.

 

[u2slow]

I have multiple 20A/240V receptacles daisy-chained around the shop. They serve my welder and compressor just fine.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I standardized on the 50A "RV connector" (14-50R) as we have an RV and often have people with RVs over to visit.

The problem with oversized breakers and outlets (assuming they have the correct wire size) is that cord/pigtail on any "smaller" 240V appliance (table saw, even a welder) becomes a "fusible link" if the device does not have it own protection built in BEFORE the pigtail.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Not all of my outlets are wired to 50A - I have a few on 10ga wire and 30A breakers, but 30A of 240V is still fine for most "large" RVs. These are still on 14-50R connectors, but I do put "30A" labels on them just to remind me.

I think the RV industry went nuts when they standardized on the 14-50 ! I guess if you are a traveling musician with a band and need 4 A/C units, plus microwave, then maybe you will need 12KVA of power !

I can't imagine using more than 20A @ 240, unless you have 2 A/C units, a 40 gallon electric water heater, microwave, electric grill, etc, etc, etc.

 

[exranger06]

An 80 gallon compressor almost certainly has a motor that's 5 HP or more. You can't use a receptacle and plug by code; it needs to be hardwired in. It should really be on its own circuit, especially since the wire size and breaker size requirements for motor circuits are much different from other circuits. Speaking of which, the OP never said what size wire or breaker is feeding this receptacle...

Having one 240V circuit/receptacle that's a "one size fits all" is bad practice and against code, as my compressor example above shows.

Extension cords are for temporary use, where you temporarily need power for a portable tool/appliance in a location where you don't normally need it. An 80 gallon compressor, wheel balancer, and lift do NOT fit that description. They're not portable; they're all large pieces of equipment that basically never move and are always used (and need power) in the same spot. There's no reason to not have an outlet/disconnect at each piece of equipment with dedicated circuits and permanent wiring run to them.

 

[nadogail]

I have a 50 Amp range receptacle on a separate dedicated circuit and my welder and big saw are plugged into that receptacle as needed.

 

[AllenV]

I use 2 separate 30A circuits. Each wall has one 220VAC receptacle.

One circuit has the the lift hardwired to it along with a 220VAC Wall receptacle located by my air compressor. The compressor is still 110VAC, so that is a future use.

The other circuit has 3 wall receptacles. Each is nearby a lathe, mill, or bandsaw.
The welder roams around as needed. I need to put a longer cord on the welder as I cannot reach the middle of the shop from any of the 4 receptacles.

FYI: All of this is 4-wire with separate ground and neutral. The wall receptacles are NEMA14-30 (4 prong). I use an adapter (dogbone in RV parlance) for equipment that has a 3-prong plug.

 

[sberry]

I really don't use anything that would overheat a 10 wire.

 

[370]

In my dad's shop I wired it with 2 separate circuits and dasiy chained an outlet for each on all 4 walls. There is a 30a circuit and a 50 amp circuit. Then the compressor (7.5hp 80gal) has its own circuit and then I wired another circuit to the ceiling in the event he ever gets a lift. (He won't)

The 30 amp circuit is for his MIG, and my TIG and the 50 amp is for my MIG and plasma. It actually works out really well. He's got a small shop though. 22x28. I can see this getting pretty pricey in a big shop. I'll find out when my 32x46 is done. Just waiting on backfill right now then it's time to fire up the mixer and start laying some block

 

[jeepxj]

An 80 gallon compressor almost certainly has a motor that's 5 HP or more. You can't use a receptacle and plug by code; it needs to be hardwired in. It should really be on its own circuit, especially since the wire size and breaker size requirements for motor circuits are much different from other circuits. Speaking of which, the OP never said what size wire or breaker is feeding this receptacle...

Having one 240V circuit/receptacle that's a "one size fits all" is bad practice and against code, as my compressor example above shows.

Extension cords are for temporary use, where you temporarily need power for a portable tool/appliance in a location where you don't normally need it. An 80 gallon compressor, wheel balancer, and lift do NOT fit that description. They're not portable; they're all large pieces of equipment that basically never move and are always used (and need power) in the same spot. There's no reason to not have an outlet/disconnect at each piece of equipment with dedicated circuits and permanent wiring run to them.

plugs good up to 10hp are out there.
https://www.cesco.com/resources/783585/44033-AttachmentURL.pdf

 

[My Old Tools]

I have multiple 30 amp 220 outlets on a breaker, wired 10ga, using 30 amp twist lock plugs. I have them all around the shop as I have multiple machines that get used occasionally. All of my machines have low voltage mag controls with overload protection. It's a one man hobby shop so no need for multiple breakers. I do the same for my 3 phase distribution off my RPC. It works for me and has for many years. If I ever need more than 30 amps I'll add a dedicated breaker.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

plugs good up to 10hp are out there.
https://www.cesco.com/resources/783585/44033-AttachmentURL.pdf

not for single phase.

the 2 plugs on that white paper that are rated for more than 3HP are 3Ø only

 

[jeepxj]

not for single phase.

the 2 plugs on that white paper that are rated for more than 3HP are 3Ø only

so how does that work nec/ul wise? I know you can use a 3p disconnect for a 1p supply. just leave the 1 disconnected and its ok.

 

[PhantomEB]

Sounds like OP needs 4 220 circuits, at least 3!

I have 2 dedicated circuits, one in each head wall corner, one corner holds my big compressor but that’s even on a plug. I made it so I can weld in each corner or down the sides/in the Center of my 24x24 with no issues, just pull down the 220 extension cord.

I am sure any upgrades down the road will come with more requirements for 3+ 220s, I will cross that road then. I can see a 2 post hoist in my future 30x40.

 

[Norcal]

so how does that work nec/ul wise? I know you can use a 3p disconnect for a 1p supply. just leave the 1 disconnected and its ok.

A very bad idea to not connect a receptacles completely, there is a reason that NEMA has provided different configurations for receptacles of almost every conceivable voltage, ampere rating, in single and three phase designs.

 

[7635tools]

This sounds like hack 101. Maybe not this OP , but in general, I find that people will spend a lot of money on all these fancy tools and machines but not spend the money in hooking them up properly. A little bit of material and time and your done.


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[sberry]

A very bad idea to not connect a receptacles completely, there is a reason that NEMA has provided different configurations for receptacles of almost every conceivable voltage, ampere rating, in single and three phase designs.

I am with this. There is a reason is a really good statement.
Its obvious from reading and a little study that we often lack a real understanding of the plug and recept system. Its quite intricate and lots to it, way more than simple first glance. It means different things depending on whats connected to it, some it means adequate, some its a limit. Most of the time both. sometimes it tlls how its wired/grounded. The biggest variation or exceptions is really welders. I never read a single thing says how to wire half of it.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

so how does that work nec/ul wise? I know you can use a 3p disconnect for a 1p supply. just leave the 1 disconnected and its ok.

The NEC requires it to be listed and labeled for use.

Using the plug outside its labeled use can have consequences.

The amperage and arc flash characteristics are different on single phase vs 3 phase. This is why you see the HP ratings different for 3 phase vs single phase.

 

[jeepxj]

The NEC requires it to be listed and labeled for use.

Using the plug outside its labeled use can have consequences.

The amperage and arc flash characteristics are different on single phase vs 3 phase. This is why you see the HP ratings different for 3 phase vs single phase.

I get what you're saying. having a hard time understanding how amps are different? if the voltage and amps are the same how is a phase to ground different?

 

[mike93lx]

I get what you're saying. having a hard time understanding how amps are different? if the voltage and amps are the same how is a phase to ground different?

For one, in single phase the current passes over 2 leads. In 3 phase, it is 3 leads. I would expect a proportionate down rating, at a minimum

 

[sberry]

The thing was need and I cot side tracked on another thread with it.
Generally,, the code isn't really meant to make the best design,, but in basic areas the standards are pretty good, doesn't mean the minimum standard is inadequate,,, look at all the 12 wire do work 14 would easily do. In theory we can tend to know how something was done by when it was done and everyone tries to do it the same way.
A weakness we see here is spec built garages with a single circuit. A modern garage should be wired about like a modern kitchen. 2 separate small appliance circuits and dedicates for the built in or known loads. Garages are adding more features and sharing utilities, with the advent of electric cars it makes sense to add local panels. Can stretch the spaces in a main and tailor all of it, futures right in the garage right where I wanted it.

 

[sberry]

It isn't really "different" (other than the available potential behind it) but the contacts for hp are different.

 

[u2slow]

Our rating system is a little backwards. We give devices a horsepower rating, but it varies depending on the voltage.

Single phase:
P = V × I

Three phase
P = V × I × √3 × powerfactor

What's really being expressed is a safe interruptible current rating. Dunno why we still confuse the electrical trade with animal units....

 

[ovilla]

I have multiple 20A/240V receptacles daisy-chained around the shop. They serve my welder and compressor just fine.

When you say daisy chained does that mean they are wire like say 4-5 110 outlets on the same one circuit? So in your case you have multiple 240v items (compressor and welder) plugged into their very own receptacle, but all the wire comes back to the same ONE 240 30 or 40AMP circuit?


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[ovilla]

Sounds like OP needs 4 220 circuits, at least 3!

I have 2 dedicated circuits, one in each head wall corner, one corner holds my big compressor but that’s even on a plug. I made it so I can weld in each corner or down the sides/in the Center of my 24x24 with no issues, just pull down the 220 extension cord.

I am sure any upgrades down the road will come with more requirements for 3+ 220s, I will cross that road then. I can see a 2 post hoist in my future 30x40.

I started with a BendPak HD9 (230 18AMP) and then added the COATS 1050 wheel balancer (220 20AMP), then a LINCOLN 180 welder (230 20AMP), and then a couple of weeks ago I picked up a 6.5HP 80 Gal Two Stage 175PSI air compressor (240 30AMP). My circuit at the breaker in the basement is 40 AMP with wire running to one sole garage outlet. I then have a 35’ 10/3 cord to connect everything as every pig tail uses the same one 30AMP 250V plug end. I work in my garage alone and never need to use all of these machines at the same time. Also the BendPak stays unplugged for security (and peace of mind) and the welder and wheel balancer get plugged in only while in use. The only thing needing constant power is the compressor, but I mostly use it on weekends. Otherwise the compressor stays fully charged and I manually drain it a little every day or so. If I don’t think I’m going to need air for a while (or if it’s hot in the garage) I open the drain and just leave it open until I use the compressor again.

I’m thinking of leaving my existing circuit’s wiring in place and just changing the circuit breaker from a 40 to a 30 Amp so I can safely use my long 10/3 cord for the BendPak, welder and wheel balancer, all of which are already situated closest to this one sole receptacle on the right side of my garage. Then I’ll run a new dedicated 40 AMP (8 gauge three conductor wire) through conduit for the 80 Gal air compressor, which is located on the left side of the garage, and actually closer to the circuit panel in the basement. I’ll also pick up a magnetic starter for my air compressor. What’s everyone think?


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[sberry]

You can use a 10 cord on a 40A circuit but not every machine is designed to hook to it. I bet the Bendpak is sposed to be 30 and the Coates too. The welder is allowed to 50.

 

[sberry]

When you say daisy chained does that mean they are wire like say 4-5 110 outlets on the same one circuit? So in your case you have multiple 240v items (compressor and welder) plugged into their very own receptacle, but all the wire comes back to the same ONE 240 30 or 40AMP circuit?


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No, if he is using recepts,,,, using them and daisy chain if they are 20 they need 20 breaker.

 

[u2slow]

When you say daisy chained does that mean they are wire like say 4-5 110 outlets on the same one circuit? So in your case you have multiple 240v items (compressor and welder) plugged into their very own receptacle, but all the wire comes back to the same ONE 240 30 or 40AMP circuit?

2-pole 20A breaker. Multiple receptacles.

Normally I defeat the compressor before welding.

 

[jeepxj]

For one, in single phase the current passes over 2 leads. In 3 phase, it is 3 leads. I would expect a proportionate down rating, at a minimum

I think i got it. motor HP is really just KW. one less power wire is 1/3 less amp carrying conductors.

 

[mike93lx]

I think i got it. motor HP is really just KW. one less power wire is 1/3 less amp carrying conductors.

Hey I am just an accountant, but that was the first thing that came to mind.

 

[jeepxj]

10hp on 1p takes more amps on 2 wires than 3p on 3 wires. hence the derating on the HP even if the amps stay the same.

 

[ovilla]

You can use a 10 cord on a 40A circuit but not every machine is designed to hook to it. I bet the Bendpak is sposed to be 30 and the Coates too. The welder is allowed to 50.

Everything I specified is from what each machine actually states either on a sticker on the machine or on a plate attached to the motor. I have to wonder though if these are just minimum amperage ratings or if they take any startup amperage spikes into account. Actually I’ll do a quick test and hook up my amperage meter to each one to see what they are drawing at startup and while in use.

 

[ovilla]

No, if he is using recepts,,,, using them and daisy chain if they are 20 they need 20 breaker.

I was talking specifically about 240 amp receptacle runs. I was wondering if there’s such a thing as daisy chained 240 30 amp receptacles. I know you can obviously daisy chain multiple receptacles for 110 - 15 or 20 amp circuits but is it code to have say three or four 240 30 amp receptacles on ONE 30amp circuit (back at the circuit breaker panel? So you’d have say a 240 30amp circuit at the circuit breaker going to receptacle #1 and then daisy chained to say #2-#4. Is this allowed?

What’s to prevent someone from using all the 240 machines (at the same time) that are plugged into the same one circuit?

 

[mike93lx]

Everything I specified is from what each machine actually states either on a sticker on the machine or on a plate attached to the motor. I have to wonder though if these are just minimum amperage ratings or if they take any startup amperage spikes into account. Actually I’ll do a quick test and hook up my amperage meter to each one to see what they are drawing at startup and while in use.

A basic clamp meter won't give you the right answer. Very few are made to actually do that properly.

Most can only give you an accurate reading for a constant or near constant load

 

[mike93lx]

What’s to prevent someone from using all the 240 machines (at the same time) that are plugged into the same one circuit?

Code aside, in a one man shop, using multiple large pieces of equipment at once is generally not possible.

Hard to weld and use a table saw at the same time