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leveling for shop and ground prep questions

Smitt E

Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2012
Messages
12
Location
Alabaster, AL
I'm working on prepping for my new 36 x 48 shop and I am about to the point of the final leveling and ground prep. My first question is about small roots. The shop sight is in the woods and all of the trees and stumps are gone, but there are small leftover roots sticking out everywhere and there is no good way to get them up. I was wondering if this is going to be an issue, or if they all got to go. Do I need to cover the area with fill dirt and/or crush gravel?
My next question is about the final leveling. I bought a string level and was planning on using the string and placing stakes to mark how far out it is, then add or subtract dirt and drag it with a box blade till its pretty close. Does this seem like I'm going about it right? Do you guys have any tips to give me? Thanks in advance!
 
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Average_Joe

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Mar 13, 2011
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209
Location
Summerville, SC
As long as you scraped off the top few inches of organic material, you will be fine. If the area is lower than you need, just bring in sandy fill dirt. Spread it out and compact it with a plate compactor every 6 or 8". Just make sure your footings are 12" or so into undisturbed soil (unless you are doing a pole building).

If you can get ahold of a transit or laser level, you will have a much more accurate and easier time getting the grade right. Set up batter boards outside of your building footprint at your desired final top of slab. Then you can run string lines across to measure grade and set form boards.

http://extremehowto.com/pour-a-concrete-floor/

I didn't read the article, but the diagrams look helpful.
 
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bobscogin

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Jun 6, 2009
Messages
141
Good advice above. You don't want any signs of organic material in the grade.

Bob
 

brownbagg

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Mar 20, 2006
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5,208
Just make sure your footings are 12" or so into undisturbed soil

not so, need to be compacted soil, just because its undisturbed doesn't mean settlement won't happen due to uncompacted subsoil. excavated into undisturbed soil then run a jumping jack down the footer couple times
 
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Smitt E

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Joined
Nov 27, 2012
Messages
12
Location
Alabaster, AL
Yeah, I've actually had to cut into it a good bit to get it to half way look level with the naked eye, so it's scraped way more than a few inches. I attached a pic of how it looks now. It has rained here so much lately that I haven't been able to touch it for a few weeks, but it's just about ready for me to start back on it.
17520_553622364674148_2044613342_n.jpg

and here are the roots I'm talking about:
1069410_553622438007474_562248832_n.jpg

https://sphotos-a.**.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/993324_553622414674143_1316193503_n.jpg
 
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Smitt E

Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2012
Messages
12
Location
Alabaster, AL
I should probably add that I'm not doing the building. I was just told to have a level surface ready for them to start building. I'm going to do a little more work this week and have them come look at it to tell me what it needs.
 

csp

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Mar 23, 2010
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5,719
Location
Franktown, CO
What type of construction will it be, slab on grade, pole barn, etc?

Getting it close by eyeball could mean it's off by SEVERAL inches from spot to spot. If you really need a level grade it would be wise to rent a laser level.
 

Modifieddriver

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Joined
May 29, 2009
Messages
820
Location
Moonville, South Carolina
I had a similar problem and worried about it.

I took tree pruning shears and cut all the larger roots off.

I also had crush and run gravel brought in for a firm base.

The grade was checked with a laser level several times until we were within about 1/2".

My Bobcat operator could just about grade by eye. Just needed some fine tuning near the end.

Then the Bobcat was run back and forth over the grade to compact the ground. I had a great hard clay base under the gravel. Even the building inspector was impressed.

Here's the link to my build: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=195854
 

Average_Joe

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Joined
Mar 13, 2011
Messages
209
Location
Summerville, SC
"Just make sure your footings are 12" or so into undisturbed soil"

not so, need to be compacted soil, just because its undisturbed doesn't mean settlement won't happen due to uncompacted subsoil. excavated into undisturbed soil then run a jumping jack down the footer couple times

It is good to compact the footings even in undisturbed soil. My point was that the footings need to be in undisturbed soil, not in fill. This can be done, but it has to be engineered and soil compaction test have to be done.
 

Falcon67

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Jun 11, 2009
Messages
18,371
Location
Merkel, TX
I had a few Mesquite stragglers once we had the pad base done - I "watered" them with a little diesel to make sure they didn't get any wild ideas. Most trees don't care - Mesquite will punch a hole in asphalt.
 
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mx842

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Feb 24, 2011
Messages
227
Location
Richmond Va
I'm working on prepping for my new 36 x 48 shop and I am about to the point of the final leveling and ground prep. My first question is about small roots. The shop sight is in the woods and all of the trees and stumps are gone, but there are small leftover roots sticking out everywhere and there is no good way to get them up. I was wondering if this is going to be an issue, or if they all got to go. Do I need to cover the area with fill dirt and/or crush gravel?
My next question is about the final leveling. I bought a string level and was planning on using the string and placing stakes to mark how far out it is, then add or subtract dirt and drag it with a box blade till its pretty close. Does this seem like I'm going about it right? Do you guys have any tips to give me? Thanks in advance!

Most small roots like yours are not a big problem as you will never get all of them out of the site. Sometime they will present a problem though if when the large trees are removed and some of the roots get broken off and left in the hole along with a lot of the top dirt rather than good soil. Stump holes will soak up water like a sponge and become soft spots unless care is taken when the trees are removed. Even if you cut a foot of dirt off the top there could still be soft spots develop because the bottoms of some of the larger stump holes could be down in the ground 5 feet or more.

It's easier to cut out any soft spots before you put up the walls and back fill them with crushed stone then cover the whole floor area with a layer of stone and grade so that any rain water can drain well and not puddle in spots. I wouldn't worry about getting it graded perfect for now just grade it so that water will drain off and leave you a good mud free place to work off of. If you cut out any soft areas grade for drainage then cover with several inches of stone this whole are will offer a good working surface and it will also be compacted well enough by the time the floor is ready to pour to just freshen up the area with enough fresh stone to bring it up to the grade you need to pour your concrete on. Just try not to put too much stone on the area the first time around because cutting stone out that has been walked on for a couple of months is harder to do than just filling in a few areas here and there.

I like to keep a small pile of stone stock piled nearby so that if small holes and ruts develop while you are working you can fill these in as they pop up to keep them from filling up with rain water and holding it possibly creating more problems. Water getting on the floor area is a good thing because it helps the soil and stone bridge together and seal off the dirt below but holes of water are no friend at all.
 

pop pop

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Apr 1, 2010
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2,859
Location
Virginia
I'd think in AL you should be able to remove enough top soil/dirt to find the red clay - which makes an excellent foundation.
 

Thumper68

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May 16, 2013
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5,134
Location
Duluth MN
I have to agree with what the others have said.

Your pictures bring me back to the start of my shop, just a hole in the woods surrounded by trees and brush.
 
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Smitt E

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Joined
Nov 27, 2012
Messages
12
Location
Alabaster, AL
Yeah, there is a good bit of clay a foot or two down. As a matter of fact the left side, where I had to dig in a bit is all clay.
 

theoldwizard1

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Feb 22, 2011
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SE MI
Just make sure your footings are 12" or so into undisturbed soil

not so, need to be compacted soil, just because its undisturbed doesn't mean settlement won't happen due to uncompacted subsoil. excavated into undisturbed soil then run a jumping jack down the footer couple times

The footings will have to go to below the frost line or whatever the local code is. If you are in a rost free area, I would still go down at least 12 ".

For the floor, scrape down at least 6" below finish grade and back fill with clean sand. Do it in 2 lifts of 3" and compact after each lift.

If the subsoil is very soft, use gravel or some mixture of gravel and sand.
 
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Highbeam

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Feb 15, 2011
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2,292
Location
Mt Rainier foothills, WA
Just go buy a rotary laser level from the Home depot. Set it up and use it to level and compact your pad. The men that come in will not be as interested in preparing a nice subgrade as you are so compact, level, compact, level, compact. Get it hard and flat.

Also, be sure that you provide a level area at least as large as your slab and then for another ten feet create a border that slopes away from the slab. It will never be easier to grade around the building than it is now before the building is in place. Use the good non-organic fill material to bring up low spots. Compact the **** out of this. The contractor won't care.
 

thdewey

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Joined
Feb 26, 2008
Messages
532
Location
Gastonia, NC
I just couldn't believe how much fill I needed to make it all level. I bet I have 15 yards of clean fill in there and it's less than 2' in the back and level in the front.

I dug the footers and poured the footers
Built a block wall up to the fininshed slab grade (top course had slab/wall block)
Then truck loads of fill that was compacted after each load
Gravel and plastic
Poured the slab with wire in the slab and rebar in the block walls. This made effectively a cheaper monolithic slab.
Oh and I used fiber in the concrete
 

Kevin54

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Joined
Jan 12, 2005
Messages
29,341
Location
Urbana, Ohio
I'm working on prepping for my new 36 x 48 shop and I am about to the point of the final leveling and ground prep. My first question is about small roots. The shop sight is in the woods and all of the trees and stumps are gone, but there are small leftover roots sticking out everywhere and there is no good way to get them up. I was wondering if this is going to be an issue, or if they all got to go. Do I need to cover the area with fill dirt and/or crush gravel?
My next question is about the final leveling. I bought a string level and was planning on using the string and placing stakes to mark how far out it is, then add or subtract dirt and drag it with a box blade till its pretty close. Does this seem like I'm going about it right? Do you guys have any tips to give me? Thanks in advance!

As long as you scraped off the top few inches of organic material, you will be fine. If the area is lower than you need, just bring in sandy fill dirt. Spread it out and compact it with a plate compactor every 6 or 8". Just make sure your footings are 12" or so into undisturbed soil (unless you are doing a pole building).

If you can get ahold of a transit or laser level, you will have a much more accurate and easier time getting the grade right. Set up batter boards outside of your building footprint at your desired final top of slab. Then you can run string lines across to measure grade and set form boards.

http://extremehowto.com/pour-a-concrete-floor/

I didn't read the article, but the diagrams look helpful.

Just make sure your footings are 12" or so into undisturbed soil

not so, need to be compacted soil, just because its undisturbed doesn't mean settlement won't happen due to uncompacted subsoil. excavated into undisturbed soil then run a jumping jack down the footer couple times

Location makes a huge difference as to how things are done, so one may want to check with your county office and see what the codes are. Even though some say they are out in the "country" and there are no codes, there will still be minimum guidelines to follow. If there wasn't, then you'd have anything tossed up anywhere.

For instance, most of the places around here will either have footers poured at frostline, then have either a poured wall, or concrete block wall built up to a block or two above ground. All grass / sod has to be eliminated down to "undisturbed soil" then 9 times out of 10, the area will be backfilled with #57 crushed stone. Some compact the stone and some won't. Across from my dads house, they built three houses....two on slabs, and one on a crawlspace. One house had a foundation put in, then it was backfilled with stone, then concrete. The one beside it, same contractor, built the house with a foundation like the first (block down to frostline) then it was backfilled with sand, then compacted some. The reasoning was that crushed stone settles, although they say it won't, but sand will compact down and once it is, cannot settle any more than that. That is what was tried. The last house was built with a foundation down to frostline, then the block laid, then the center dug out. This left a crawlspace which had to have floor joist put in. Each home had it's own problems, but only one complained about the floor. That was the house with the crushed stone although the problem was the laminate flooring, so I don't know if it was related or not.

As far as the OP, if you have, or had, a lot of trees, you want to get the stumps out, the large roots out, but depending on the tree, you may not be able to get all of the hair roots. Some trees can send the roots a long ways.

If it were mine, and I imagine that our summers may be close to what you have year around, I would get as much as I could out, but don't fret over every little root. If you are going with a pole building, I'd get it erected and when it comes to the floor, I would either go with crushed stone, or go with a "washed sand". In going with a washed sand or a clean sand that only has very small stones in it. If you use crushed stone, then I would layer it, tamping each and every layer, and go at least a foot deep with the stone.

If I went with sand, I would make sure to also put the sand in , in layers, dampening each layer, then going over it with a plate tamper. The sand would go faster than crushed stone as far as tamping. Once it's all down, either material, then lay some heavy thickness of vapor barrier down, then go with your radiant heat, insulation, or whatever you want to do.

Where you are at, I seriously doubt that going down to frostline even exist, or if it even gets cold enough to worry about it. I would make sure, and again check with your county on codes, but you WILL want your outside edges thicker. If you plan on a hoist in the future, then make sure you have thicker concrete where it would bolt down to. You also may want to have a pour done where you have thick beams running each direction when poured.

On thing to remember, the floor and foundation is the main part of the structure. If it's a half *** job, then everything on top of the slab may as well be also. I wouldn't worry about wire mash either, but I would make sure that the floor has rebar through it. This keeps the floor from dropping if it happens to crack. The rebar will keep both sides of the crack, even, and not allow a tripping hazard to happen.

Good luck and looking forward to the build pics of the new place. :thumbup:
 

Angelfire

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Joined
Mar 22, 2012
Messages
1,367
Location
New Mexico and Ireland
Possibly overkill but I had my area over excavated then returned the soil in 6" lifts, compacting each lift, until at full grade. Also had an engineering testing company come out and test to ensure compaction was adequate. We ended up having to overexcavate about 3'. I live in sand so YMMV of course.
 
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