Lighting Choice; LED High Bay

[Radix2]

They may dim better with the 0-10V dedicated dimming circuit. The cans I had used standard wiring, but I did have to by a special dimmer for like $65. These were on a dedicated circuit. I can't remember what they called it "forward pulsed" or "reverse pulsed". It is all clear as mud.

Kelvin

You are right, CFLs and LEDs do work better with a dimmer calibrated for them vs one for incandescent lights. The 10V dimming lights usually will not dim down to zero (stop at 1-2% ) unless they specifically call out that feature - so there is still the need for a switch to cut off the lights completely.

Of course at 1% brightness and being efficient, they make a good nightlight system.

 

[revamped]

Ha! of course it cannot be easy. I cannot find the right lutron dimmer for the High Bays since they are 165W each and James is not a recognized manufacturer. I emailed Lutron requesting help with this application...

 

[cybrdyke]

Search for Lutron #DVSTV.
There are similar products by Leviton, Cooper Wiring Devices, and Pass & Seymour.
Good luck,
CD

 

[Radix2]

The standard wire to use for the dimming is 18ga with one grey wire for ground and a purple wire for the 0-10v dimming signal. The wattage of the lamps is not critical since the dimming is done inside the lamp not in the dimmer like conventional lights. Search for 0-10v dimmer to find the correct ones.

 

[ErVikingo]

So I ordered the James high bay ($205 with shipping):

Kelvin

Hi!

Are the James dimmable? Any feedback after your install?

 

[azgr]

That looks great - Thx for posting it!

Just to confirm, is this the luminaire that you used?

http://www.ledlightingwholesaleinc.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ZY-H5-165W&CartID=5

By any chance do you have any photos of it with the light turned off to show the mounting, etc?

I've been emailing a direct contact with James lighting about these, and I think the 110W luminaires will work for my application. They also are offering me decent pricing on the luminaires, although the shipping gets expensive.

I didn't think about needing separate wiring for a dimmer on these - I'll be sure to include that before drywall goes up.

 

[azgr]

Revamped.

I have another question for you on the James luminaire that you ordered. Did it ship with a U-shaped bracket that can be used for surface/pendant mounting?

See attached for photos of the mounting bracket that I referring to.

Thanks!

 

[revamped]

Revamped.

I have another question for you on the James luminaire that you ordered. Did it ship with a U-shaped bracket that can be used for surface/pendant mounting?

See attached for photos of the mounting bracket that I referring to.

Thanks!

Az, Unfortunately the U-bracket did not come with the lamp. Although, the Chains and End Wire Brackets did come with the lamp for free with plenty of chain to hang up to bout 30". I am thinking I should use the U bracket and find a box that it can screw to so I don't have to use any conduit.

That looks great - Thx for posting it!

Just to confirm, is this the luminaire that you used?

http://www.ledlightingwholesaleinc.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ZY-H5-165W&CartID=5

By any chance do you have any photos of it with the light turned off to show the mounting, etc?

I've been emailing a direct contact with James lighting about these, and I think the 110W luminaires will work for my application. They also are offering me decent pricing on the luminaires, although the shipping gets expensive.

I didn't think about needing separate wiring for a dimmer on these - I'll be sure to include that before drywall goes up.

Yes, this is the 2foot fixture I received. I am really interested in how the 110 watt works and if I should step down in Lumens since the 20000+ lumens was pretty bright. Let me know what kind of pricing you are able to negotiate and where...

Hi!

Are the James dimmable? Any feedback after your install?

Yes these are dimmable with separate low voltage circuit to a 0-10V dimmer. It will not turn off the light, so you need a separate power switch.

Search for Lutron #DVSTV.
There are similar products by Leviton, Cooper Wiring Devices, and Pass & Seymour.
Good luck,
CD

Thanks for hooking me up Cyber, I need to ensure this will do what I need on 7 165W Luminaires. Several of the dimmers I have found show for lower wattage.

The standard wire to use for the dimming is 18ga with one grey wire for ground and a purple wire for the 0-10v dimming signal. The wattage of the lamps is not critical since the dimming is done inside the lamp not in the dimmer like conventional lights. Search for 0-10v dimmer to find the correct ones.

Thanks Radix. So in this case, do I not pay attention to the wattage the dimmer is rated for? Several only show 400-600 watts, but I am dimming 7 165W luminaires. I don't know if the wattage I should be concerned about in the specs is the same as the wattage of the luminaire. I also have been told by an alarm contractor that they have used CAT5 cable to install dimmers before... not sure about that one...


Thanks everyone for the participation. I am learning a lot.

 

[Radix2]

Thanks for hooking me up Cyber, I need to ensure this will do what I need on 7 165W Luminaires. Several of the dimmers I have found show for lower wattage.



Thanks Radix. So in this case, do I not pay attention to the wattage the dimmer is rated for? Several only show 400-600 watts, but I am dimming 7 165W luminaires. I don't know if the wattage I should be concerned about in the specs is the same as the wattage of the luminaire. I also have been told by an alarm contractor that they have used CAT5 cable to install dimmers before... not sure about that one...


Thanks everyone for the participation. I am learning a lot.

We are all learning here...

I was surprised that there is a low limit on the current in the switch part of these dimmers (since the power switching is done in the fixture) - and I see that the DVSTV is only rated for 8A - and all of your lights together are over 9A. The version that needs the power pack is rated to 16A. Cooper has two designs - the Skye and the Devine - they are rated for 1200W/10A and dont need a power pack. http://www.cooperindustries.com/con...ents/sell_sheets2/Dimmers0-10V-Sell-Sheet.pdf

So, either get the Cooper dimmer or break up your lights into two circuits.

 

[Clevername]

Well, I got the Litetronics light on Thursday. I have not had a chance to mount it yet -I have a lot of wiring to do. Here are a couple of pics. This thing is nice. Super solid -all metal.





Kelvin

 

[MJockey]

Why not get a stand alone dimmer and use a regular light switch to switch power on / off.

Something like this.
http://www.ledsupply.com/led-drivers/dimming-control-0-10v-low-voltage-wall-mount-control?gclid=CjwKEAjwjqO_BRDribyJpc_mzHgSJABdnsFWGVGxCyUOirJbwmZ4CSz6hcEvP_wdw-w9DZK6bQ54UhoC1UHw_wcB

 

[Clevername]

We are all learning here...

I was surprised that there is a low limit on the current in the switch part of these dimmers (since the power switching is done in the fixture) - and I see that the DVSTV is only rated for 8A - and all of your lights together are over 9A. The version that needs the power pack is rated to 16A. Cooper has two designs - the Skye and the Devine - they are rated for 1200W/10A and dont need a power pack. http://www.cooperindustries.com/con...ents/sell_sheets2/Dimmers0-10V-Sell-Sheet.pdf

So, either get the Cooper dimmer or break up your lights into two circuits.

Yeah me too. We design equipment all day with 0-10v controls, these circuits use milliamps to set the real drive voltage -which could be 8 gazillion amps or whatever.
I guess the on/off part of the switch which passes the AC can't handle more than 8 amps -******, but nothing surprises me with home/commercial wiring it all ***** and is archaic.

Here is a picture with a typical wiring scheme.



And the link to the actual application notes.

Kelvin

 

[Clevername]

Why not get a stand alone dimmer and use a regular light switch to switch power on / off.

Something like this.
http://www.ledsupply.com/led-drivers/dimming-control-0-10v-low-voltage-wall-mount-control?gclid=CjwKEAjwjqO_BRDribyJpc_mzHgSJABdnsFWGVGxCyUOirJbwmZ4CSz6hcEvP_wdw-w9DZK6bQ54UhoC1UHw_wcB

I would end up with six light switches, but maybe I could do the relay version:

 

[Radix2]

It seems to me the only purpose for the relay system is if you want to use the dimmer to go to true zero/open circuit by itself.

I am planning 12 lights in 3 circuits. I don't see why I cant use one dimmer to set all the dimming levels and 3 regular switches to shut down each row. Could even use one of the combo units if it can source/sink enough current to control 12 fixtures and just leave the line out open.

I need to see if the lights can tolerate having the dimming signal with the power open circuit.

 

[Radix2]

Revamped - here is the whole report on the upper and lower lighting areas instead of just the jpgs.

I used your maxlight .ies file for the cans.

oop too big of a file... PM me your email and I will sent it.

 

[Clevername]

I am planning 12 lights in 3 circuits. I don't see why I cant use one dimmer to set all the dimming levels and 3 regular switches to shut down each row. Could even use one of the combo units if it can source/sink enough current to control 12 fixtures and just leave the line out open.

I need to see if the lights can tolerate having the dimming signal with the power open circuit.

I hadn't thought of that. I just talked to the Electrical Engineers accross the hall at work. The 0-10V signal is going into a high impedance input, hence the low current. That shouldn't change just because the lights get turned off. -Better test it though

 

[revamped]

So are you saying the cooper switch that has the dimmer built in cannot handle the control circuit having power while the power is open? I'm confused now. I cant tell if I need a separate power switch with a separate dimmer or if the all in one will work for my application.

 

[Radix2]

So are you saying the cooper switch that has the dimmer built in cannot handle the control circuit having power while the power is open? I'm confused now. I cant tell if I need a separate power switch with a separate dimmer or if the all in one will work for my application.

If you are going to put all your lights on one circuit, the Cooper Dimmer should be fine for you. It can handle up to 1200W/10A so you should be good.



I am talking about a different set up using regular light switches to handle the power on/off and one dimmer to set the control signal for the lights.

 

[cybrdyke]

Yes these are dimmable with separate low voltage circuit to a 0-10V dimmer. It will not turn off the light, so you need a separate power switch.



Thanks for hooking me up Cyber, I need to ensure this will do what I need on 7 165W Luminaires. Several of the dimmers I have found show for lower wattage.



Thanks Radix. So in this case, do I not pay attention to the wattage the dimmer is rated for? Several only show 400-600 watts, but I am dimming 7 165W luminaires. I don't know if the wattage I should be concerned about in the specs is the same as the wattage of the luminaire. I also have been told by an alarm contractor that they have used CAT5 cable to install dimmers before... not sure about that one...


Thanks everyone for the participation. I am learning a lot.

If you are looking at dimmers that have a "wattage rating" for their dimming capacity, then you are probably looking at the wrong dimmers. 0-10v dimmers aren't rated that way....at least not for their dimming capacity. The two dimmers referenced above, the Lutron and the Cooper show their LOAD RATING CAPACITY. In the case of the Lutron, it's 8A without the black box, 16A with. The Cooper load rating is 1200w (10A). These figures are telling you how much electrical load the device can handle. The dimming function in these devices is separate from the on/off function. It can actually control alot more fixtures than the device is rated for.

 

[revamped]

If you are looking at dimmers that have a "wattage rating" for their dimming capacity, then you are probably looking at the wrong dimmers. 0-10v dimmers aren't rated that way....at least not for their dimming capacity. The two dimmers referenced above, the Lutron and the Cooper show their LOAD RATING CAPACITY. In the case of the Lutron, it's 8A without the black box, 16A with. The Cooper load rating is 1200w (10A). These figures are telling you how much electrical load the device can handle. The dimming function in these devices is separate from the on/off function. It can actually control alot more fixtures than the device is rated for.

Thanks again, just to clarify however; the cooper does both dim and on/off correct? I know... I probably shouldn't be doing this on my own. lol.

 

[cybrdyke]

Thanks again, just to clarify however; the cooper does both dim and on/off correct? I know... I probably shouldn't be doing this on my own. lol.

Yes it does. The on/off uses the black "hot" wire and the dimming is done by separate wires (purple & gray).
Good luck
CD

 

[MJockey]

It seems to me the only purpose for the relay system is if you want to use the dimmer to go to true zero/open circuit by itself.

I am planning 12 lights in 3 circuits. I don't see why I cant use one dimmer to set all the dimming levels and 3 regular switches to shut down each row. Could even use one of the combo units if it can source/sink enough current to control 12 fixtures and just leave the line out open.

I need to see if the lights can tolerate having the dimming signal with the power open circuit.

Should work as long as you run a separate dimmer wires(gray/violet) to each circuit. Only issue is you wont be able to have some lights on full bright while other dimmed.

 

[azgr]

Yes, this is the 2foot fixture I received. I am really interested in how the 110 watt works and if I should step down in Lumens since the 20000+ lumens was pretty bright. Let me know what kind of pricing you are able to negotiate and where...

Thx for all of the info. With shipping included, the pricing direct from James isn't any better than the pricing from LED Lighting Wholesale online, so I will just order online. I'm going with 10 of the 110W luminaires. I am going to just put in fan boxes in my building for now, and then figure out a mounting bracket to surface mount the lights after my ceiling is drywalled

 

[tom.dickerson]

Thanks a lot for the sharing and help from everyone here. I am currently looking at the James lights for my 50x78, 18' ceiling that is going up. It will be finished with white tin on the inside.

Radix,
Would you be willing to run 6 of the 225W James lights in 2 rows of 3 through your program for me?

Manufacturer: James SKU: ZY-H3-225W Wattage: 225W
Lumens: 29,300LM Color: 4000K, 5000K Shape: High Bay
Rate Life: 50,000 Hours Warranty: 5 Year Certifications: UL, DLC

Thanks again for all of the good info already provided.
- Tom

 

[Radix2]

I'll try it next time I run the program give me a day to two.

I saw today that Menards has the 15,000 lumen lithonia high bay on sale... looks like sale over now, but with 11 % off $177

 

[tom.dickerson]

Thanks a lot!

 

[Radix2]

Thanks a lot for the sharing and help from everyone here. I am currently looking at the James lights for my 50x78, 18' ceiling that is going up. It will be finished with white tin on the inside.

Radix,
Would you be willing to run 6 of the 225W James lights in 2 rows of 3 through your program for me?

Manufacturer: James SKU: ZY-H3-225W Wattage: 225W
Lumens: 29,300LM Color: 4000K, 5000K Shape: High Bay
Rate Life: 50,000 Hours Warranty: 5 Year Certifications: UL, DLC

Thanks again for all of the good info already provided.
- Tom

Here is what I get:

 

[Sixfeet4]

This thread hits a sore subject for me. I splurged on high bay led pendants and so far, two different electricians could not get the 0-10v dimmer to work. My intent was to get all 7 lights on a wifi dimmer I could control with my phone, what I got was some really nice lights with an on/off toggle. On hold until I can find the right guy to troubleshoot some more.

Here's a link to the lights I used.

http://www.holophane.com/products/family.asp?brand=hlp&family=PHS%20-%20Phuzion%20LED%20High%20Bay&producttype=Indoor&category=LED&subcategory=LED

 

[tom.dickerson]

Thanks a lot Radix.

 

[cybrdyke]

6'4-
There should be 2 control wires, 1 purple, 1 gray. These are the low voltage wires that go to whatever controller you have chosen. You should be able to control the fixture with these two wires without having any control, just by touching them together. This is how we troubleshoot the dimming circuit in the driver. The light will be full bright or full dim when you touch or separate these two wires.
If the light reacts to this test, the driver is good and your controls are not working. They could be incompatible, faulty, or mis-wired.
If the light doesn't react to this test, then the problem is likely in the driver.
Good luck,
CD

 

[revamped]

This thread hits a sore subject for me. I splurged on high bay led pendants and so far, two different electricians could not get the 0-10v dimmer to work. My intent was to get all 7 lights on a wifi dimmer I could control with my phone, what I got was some really nice lights with an on/off toggle. On hold until I can find the right guy to troubleshoot some more.

Sorry to hear that Six, can you share the model number of the dimmer switch you are using? I know I had to special order mine to handle the 900+ watts. The models on the shelf were rated for less than 600 or 300.
revamped

 

[Sixfeet4]

6'4-
There should be 2 control wires, 1 purple, 1 gray. These are the low voltage wires that go to whatever controller you have chosen. You should be able to control the fixture with these two wires without having any control, just by touching them together. This is how we troubleshoot the dimming circuit in the driver. The light will be full bright or full dim when you touch or separate these two wires.
If the light reacts to this test, the driver is good and your controls are not working. They could be incompatible, faulty, or mis-wired.
If the light doesn't react to this test, then the problem is likely in the driver.
Good luck,
CD

Great info! The guy that did the rough in ran lamp cord from the dimming terminals on top each light to a junction box and tied all of them together, then ran a single lead down to the switch. He couldn't get them to work, so I had a commercial guy check and make sure the polarity was correct on all of them and still couldn't get it to work. Then I had to blow the insulation and now all those leads are a foot deep in insulation.

Sorry to hear that Six, can you share the model number of the dimmer switch you are using? I know I had to special order mine to handle the 900+ watts. The models on the shelf were rated for less than 600 or 300.
revamped

The lighting manufacturer Rep sold me a 0-10v Lurton Nova T. #NTSTV-DV-WH. Same one I see in a lot of commercial installations. Not sure what wattage it's rated for and not really sure if the old wattage rules still apply for LED?

Here's the specs: http://m.cesco.com/b2c/product/Lutron-NTSTV-DV-WH-Nova-T-Single-Pole-Small/73658

 

[revamped]

I don't think wattage applies to the lv side of the control. I am not installed yet, but my switch is a power and lv control in one so that is where the wattage was a concern. Sounds like either a bad control or something is crossed. I don't know about speaker wire, here it does not meet lv code and I have to run 18ga twisted class 3 security wire to meet code for lv circuit.

 

[cybrdyke]

Great info! The guy that did the rough in ran lamp cordUgh! from the dimming terminals on top each light to a junction box and tied all of them together, then ran a single lead down to the switch.If your description is correct, that's wrong. He couldn't get them to work, so I had a commercial guy check and make sure the polarity was correct on all of them and still couldn't get it to work. Then I had to blow the insulation and now all those leads are a foot deep in insulation.



The lighting manufacturer Rep sold me a 0-10v Lurton Nova T. #NTSTV-DV-WH. Same one I see in a lot of commercial installations. Not sure what wattage it's rated for and not really sure if the old wattage rules still apply for LED?

Here's the specs: http://m.cesco.com/b2c/product/Lutron-NTSTV-DV-WH-Nova-T-Single-Pole-Small/73658

Here is the wiring diagram for that dimmer switch. http://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/App_Note_529.pdf

 

[cybrdyke]

I don't think wattage applies to the lv side of the control. I am not installed yet, but my switch is a power and lv control in one so that is where the wattage was a concern.

It's the switching circuitry of the device that limits the load rating. Most are rated around 8A. The low voltage portion is limited by total milliamps of connected controls in the drivers. I've only seen a few times where this came into play.
CD

 

[motofool33]

subscribed so i can find this again

 

[dontlifttoshift]

Thanks for this thread.

I really wanted to run bare fixtures with bypass LED tubes. Mostly because it would be an easy upgrade as the technology advances.....it's easier to swap out tubes than it is to swap out fixtures. No matter how I did it, I would need at least 45 fixtures. I'm not lazy, but I would rather hang 20.

I just ordered a James HighBay 80 and 110 watt to hang in my space and see how they look. I know I can run software and do some math and get if figured out but I really need to "see" what I am dealing with.

This is for our fab shop and we do as much work within 4 foot of the walls as we do in the middle, so I am thinking the 80w for the perimeter and the 110 through the middle. I'll know more when they are here.

 

[revamped]

Thanks for this thread.

I really wanted to run bare fixtures with bypass LED tubes. Mostly because it would be an easy upgrade as the technology advances.....it's easier to swap out tubes than it is to swap out fixtures. No matter how I did it, I would need at least 45 fixtures. I'm not lazy, but I would rather hang 20.

I just ordered a James HighBay 80 and 110 watt to hang in my space and see how they look. I know I can run software and do some math and get if figured out but I really need to "see" what I am dealing with.

This is for our fab shop and we do as much work within 4 foot of the walls as we do in the middle, so I am thinking the 80w for the perimeter and the 110 through the middle. I'll know more when they are here.

I think you will be pleased if your ceilings are high enough. If they are lower than 12 ft, I wouldn't use these fixtures. They claim they are good for 10-40ft, but too close you would lose the crossover. I like your idea around the perimeter. I am putting one in the weld shop 5ft from the wall so I don't get shadows over workbenches and small equipment. The rest are spaced at least 12ft apart around the shop and by the calculations that Radix did for me that is going to be over 100fc just about everywhere I will do any work. With the 165's that is.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

15.5 feet to the ceiling. 36 x 58 interior dimensions.

 

[Radix2]

Thanks for this thread.

I really wanted to run bare fixtures with bypass LED tubes. Mostly because it would be an easy upgrade as the technology advances.....it's easier to swap out tubes than it is to swap out fixtures. No matter how I did it, I would need at least 45 fixtures. I'm not lazy, but I would rather hang 20.

I just ordered a James HighBay 80 and 110 watt to hang in my space and see how they look. I know I can run software and do some math and get if figured out but I really need to "see" what I am dealing with.

This is for our fab shop and we do as much work within 4 foot of the walls as we do in the middle, so I am thinking the 80w for the perimeter and the 110 through the middle. I'll know more when they are here.

Definitely post how it turns out - while the simulations are neat and all to get an idea about brightness, there is nothing like seeing it in person and feeling the glare and shadowing that might happen.

I have two areas - 40x50 with 14-18ft ceilings and 35x40 with 9.5 ft ceilings...it is incredible how many lights it takes to get 100fc if you want to use simple wrap lights on a lowish ceiling. I am still ruminating over 12 of the James 165W lights for the 40x50. Another choice is 16 of the 14000lumen lithonia 8' strips, but they are pricey. both of these set up are a solid 100fc.