Above 1200 Sq/FT LilScorpion’s Fab Space

[loganb]

Curious to the use of DIN rails vs using standard breakers…

Based on how he's pulling individual labeled circuits and comments above and making some space in the existing panels, it looks like this is just a termination point/junction box for converting from romex to THHN for the conduit as the breakers are all in the utility room panel(s) shown in Post #116. That makes usage of DIN rail for the connection a cleaner, more organized option over wire nutting the romex to THHN and trying to bend things to make them look clean

 

[lilscorpion]

Based on how he's pulling individual labeled circuits and comments above and making some space in the existing panels, it looks like this is just a termination point/junction box for converting from romex to THHN for the conduit as the breakers are all in the utility room panel(s) shown in Post #116. That makes usage of DIN rail for the connection a cleaner, more organized option over wire nutting the romex to THHN and trying to bend things to make them look clean

Yep, exactly. The basement is fully finished (as are the walls in the garage). Romex thru the basement makes it easier and then conversely, when I get to the garage I’ll convert to EMT surface mounted on the wall (as pictured above). For the few wires larger than #6, one of many of @slodat’s
recommendations, I’ll be using insulated in-line splice connectors since #3 and 4 won’t fit in the Din-10 and for any down stream connection or splitting I’ll need to do.

In a few days I’ll share how I wired my electrical pressure washer. How it turned out (in the box) is really what encouraged me to do something better here. It’s a freakin mess and it always takes me a minute to get my balance when I open up the panel. In some regards, it’s dangerous (tho I seem to find ways to zap myself a dozen times every time I do electrical and I’m not dead yet). When I was planning I couldn’t even comprehend having more than a dozen different runs all transition in a 10 x 10 x 4 box. Yeah I could label them, but the Din rails enable something else some don’t think of - the recessed screws allow quick assessment via bolt meter if the circuit is live. I’m my old house Id be running up and down the stairs making sure I don’t make what little hair I have stand up when messing with my electrical.

Now, I do have one #3-2 + Ground (#4) circuit that I couldn’t get in Romex so I’m gonna have to figure out how to lay in a single conduit run in the ceiling. It’ll only be an 1.25” non-metallic schedule 40…but I’m worried about getting it supported correctly thru the 20’ enclosed ceiling raceway in the basement. It’ll be fun.

 

[lilscorpion]

Curious to the use of DIN rails vs using standard breakers…


For wire labels I am a really big fan of using a Brady21 label maker with its printable heat shrink labels. Are you going to use wire Furels for the termination blocks?

I need to get a heat shrinkable label maker. Would have been nice when doing the electrical on the Jeeps and super nice here. I like your setup. Systainer is how I’d go and everything you need is contained. Love it!

I could add labels later. Roght Joe I’m just trying to keep all the circuits straight until they’re all run and wired. I only used the shielding because the PO did in the basement on the original panel. Kinda hard to see in a blow up if the pic I too previously but you can kinda make them out -



A weird part of my personality is I like things to be the same especially if what was done before isn’t lame or wrong. Honestly I’d seen it for. Before years ago and wouldn’t have thought of it had the PO not done it.

 

[lilscorpion]

Here’s a funny for you guys - during Covid I built some first aid kits (mostly to keep busy). Who’ll pulling wires I filleted my thumb and opened the first aid kit in my Jeep for the first time.

From left to right- gauze, roller bandage, serrated scissors in the first section. Second two had 4x4’s and tape. Third section antiseptic, burn ointment, anti-bacteria ointment, etc. Third section is just about any pill you could need - aspirin, iBProfin, pepto, anti nausea, antibiotics, etc.

NO Fn Bandaids. Not one.



So I did what everyone here would do — shop paper towel + electrical tape. Don’t need no stinkin bandaids.

 

[rvieceli]

@lilscorpion These NSI Polaris connectors are really nice. Crank down with a set screw and prefilled with anti oxide gel

https://www.nsiindustries.com/polaris/

Most online supply houses have them and even Amazon.

Amazon.com : polaris connector

Ron

 

[DeeDubz]

Nice First ad kit OP. Might be a good Idea to add a few things. At least a Tourniquet.

 

[lilscorpion]

Nice First ad kit OP. Might be a good Idea to add a few things. At least a Tourniquet.

I built two or three of them for each Jeep. Apparently this one was the one I didn’t finish. The others are a little more equipped with stuff that I’d likely need (namely laceration kits, bandaids I’d every size, etc). I’m just a dumb a$$ for not looking in the kit before stuffing it in my Jeep. When it comes to stuff like this. It’s trust but verify even when the person in question is me.

 

[rvieceli]

I like to have some Steri-strips available as well for when you can’t or won’t go get stitches.

 

[ayer]

Do what everyone who works in a body shop does. Wrap it with a paper towel and masking tape and back at it.
Don't need no stinking stitches.

 

[zmotorsports]

Do what everyone who works in a body shop does. Wrap it with a paper towel and masking tape and back at it.
Don't need no stinking stitches.

Personally, I've found that electrical tape works just a bit better as it stretches and moves with you while continuing to work.

 

[madison069]

When i go hiking, I take a first aid kit that should handle just about any situation. The group would laugh and say things like "I bet that 5lbs first aid kit has a helicopter in it that just need water added to it." Luckily, we haven't needed to use it, but at least we are prepared.

But, I will say I need to go through it as the kit is 7 years old now. I bet the medicine isn't all that great and the fuel in the helicopter needs to be changed.

 

[madison069]

I need to get a heat shrinkable label maker. Would have been nice when doing the electrical on the Jeeps and super nice here. I like your setup. Systainer is how I’d go and everything you need is contained. Love it!

Just a heads up, they make heat shrinkable tube for the Brother label makers if you have a label maker already. I'm also planning to order some for the electrical wing in the camaro of mine to make it easier for future trouble shooting.

 

[LXCam]

Personally, I've found that electrical tape works just a bit better as it stretches and moves with you while continuing to work.

3M 33 inside out is the only way to go.

 

[86turbodsl]

I have a narrow pallet jack. Highly recommend one.

This. Cheap at auction, and super handy to have sitting around. I have 2.

 

[slodat]

For wire labels I am a really big fan of using a Brady21 label maker with its printable heat shrink labels. Are you going to use wire Furels for the termination blocks?

This really is the way. The Brady 21 is an industry standard. Bang for the buck far better than most other offerings. I've used a few hundred rolls of the shrink tube in one of these.

 

[csp]

I'm so jealous of the projects you're getting to do. I can't find anything tool or supply-wise and have been doing a temporary bath renovation just to have one to use that isn't nasty. Then there was fixing a hydrant leak 5' underground that caused the well to cycle every 20 minutes and a water heater that doesn't know when to shut off. I love 50 year old homes that have been sitting empty for a few years. I knew the potential for this stuff when submitting the offer though.

Your wiring runs look great!

 

[Clemson13]

I won't lie, I've been jonesing for updates this week

 

[rattle_snake]

ya, your delinquent.

 

[lilscorpion]

I won't lie, I've been jonesing for updates this week

Damn it…

ya, your delinquent.

Damn it!!

Yes, I’ve been bad. It’s all taking way longer than I could have imagined. Part of the problem is I’m pushing and pulling all my wires myself…dumb but I gotta do what I gotta do. I’m also about $3k into this damn thing…and damn conduit takes a long time too. Getting super pro at going up and down the ladder too.



Some really great things about the new space - I’m getting reacquainted with my bandsaw I used back when I had the business (what, 18 years ago now?!). In the old house it just sat tucked in a corner because I didn’t have the patience and/or time to drag it out and clear room for material in-feed and out-feed.



Need to spend a little time dialing in the cutting arms. It’s just a little odd but works the charm for this task regardless.



Now all of the junction boxes could just be standard boxes but I wanted to be able to run conduit into them on my own spacing, location, and size so I’m cutting all my own holes on the bench. Painters tape makes it easier to layout the hole patterns start the drill/holesaw by the way.



I camp the damn thing to the bench so I don’t have to try to hang on to it (for dear life). note: I tried once and it went badly.



The carbide tipped hole saws work awesome and fast.



It doeAmy take long to swish cheese a box.



Making em as I go does slow things down a bit.



Getting better at bending with the manual bender too. Takes me back to fanning roll cages. Rotations and what-not. Little hogs like this are fun (look too left)

 

[lilscorpion]

Jumping back and forth between pulling wires and bending…



It grows like a virus…



Have to work thru the walls to get between the shop and the garage side. In this case, a zig and zag - I thru drill with a 12” 1/4” drill bit and then hole saw either side.



Nailed it perfect. Guess I had the drill level and straight.



Had this fun little triple s-bend to do. (Only 2 are showing, third is on the floor at this moment). This pic illustrates one of the ideas I’ve had during the process - to run multiple of the perimeter conduits into the boxes to enable future flexibility and not be constrained by a single conduits capacity.



Getting really close



Got the 3-phase panel installed too. Phase converter soon to follow.

 

[Grant Gunderson]

Looks great!

For putting holes into the boxes, I’m a big fan of using a knockout set.

Klien and Greenlee make good ones. A hole saw is faster but the knockout set is more precise, allows you to position the holes exactly where you want even all the way to the edge and produces a nicer finish on the cuts. Plus if you need to put a hole in a box that’s already installed it’s way less chips to vacume out.


For the pilot hole I just use a step drill after center punching

For the wires being terminated into screw terminals I like using wire Ferrules on them


the business get crimped with Square crimpers and provide a much more secure termination

 

[slodat]

Matt- the conduit runs look great! Very nice work. You’ll look at it continuously in the coming years. It’s worth the effort to make it nice.

Again, I second Grant on his tooling recommendation. I really like the Greenlee slug buster knockout sets. Especially when you get up in 2” and above.

 

[86turbodsl]

That's some pro-level conduit work there. Looks beautiful and good job!

 

[rattle_snake]

....It’s all taking way longer than I could have imagined....

Well you won't let yourself do it any other way given your attention to detail. As it should be.

Are you going to pull the conduit down and powder coat it all?

 

[lilscorpion]

Looks great!

For putting holes into the boxes, I’m a big fan of using a knockout set.

Klien and Greenlee make good ones. A hole saw is faster but the knockout set is more precise, allows you to position the holes exactly where you want even all the way to the edge and produces a nicer finish on the cuts. Plus if you need to put a hole in a box that’s already installed it’s way less chips to vacume out.


For the pilot hole I just use a step drill after center punching

For the wires being terminated into screw terminals I like using wire Ferrules on them


the business get crimped with Square crimpers and provide a much more secure termination

Damn it Grant…I have a **** ton of ferrules and the crimpers, just didn’t even think about using them because I was focused on getting after it. In the last 24 hours (since reading your reply) I’ve considered pulling everything out and doing them right…so far I’ve resisted.

Ordered a Greenlee knockout kit, should be here tomorrow. Fantastic idea. Was thinking about trying some kind of knockout tool, getting tired of sweeping metal chips off the fliir

Matt- the conduit runs look great! Very nice work. You’ll look at it continuously in the coming years. It’s worth the effort to make it nice.
Again, I second Grant on his tooling recommendation. I really like the Greenlee slug buster knockout sets. Especially when you get up in 2” and above.

I realized that I need to bend some 3/4” as well…hadn’t thought about Joe to get it to match as well. Technically, with a smaller radius, each tube should be longer (so to speak) and I’d just be able to cut them down to match. Not sure how well copper will line up give pipe fittings are nearly zero radius…we’ll see. Indi love it tho, thanks for the recommendation.
Well you won't let yourself do it any other way given your attention to detail. As it should be.

Are you going to pull the conduit down and powder coat it all?

I’ve thought about it and I really want to but I’d need a 10’ oven to pull it off. I’m probably nuts enough to do it but the extra time it would take would drag out getting the shop up and running a month or so I’d guess

 

[lilscorpion]

That's some pro-level conduit work there. Looks beautiful and good job!

Thanks. It’s really fun but I’ll be happy to be done. More sure how commercial electricians do it as much as they must…respect

 

[gba2331]

Damn it Grant…I have a **** ton of ferrules and the crimpers, just didn’t even think about using them because I was focused on getting after it. In the last 24 hours (since reading your reply) I’ve considered pulling everything out and doing them right…so far I’ve resisted.

Grant has a way of realigning my expectations as well, it’s both a curse and a blessing….

 

[zmotorsports]

Conduit runs are looking great Matt.

Although, it makes me glad I ran my wiring internal during construction.

 

[lilscorpion]

Conduit runs are looking great Matt.

Although, it makes me glad I ran my wiring internal during construction.

I wish it were an option. I’m realizing that the shop is itself ironically the first project in the shop.

 

[lilscorpion]

Got a little done. Moving to later 2 of infrastructure. Later 1, as seen in previous posts, was all electrical (120v + 240v). Adding a second layer optimizes the space required on the wall a bit. Spacers space a second Uni strut above the first. I used 1/2” EMT to make spacers, Uni strut nuts and fender washers.



This will serve as a base for air, water, and low voltage electrical (e.g. 24v and Ethernet).



Air and water will both run thru 3/4” copper. I was looking into manufactured systems like maxline, etc but after reading reviews and hearing feedback about the systems not being consistent with leaks, I realized that the Cooper I used in the previous garage was plenty, if not equally, good. Since I had a few hundred feet I pulled out and moved, I’m gonna stick with it.



First layer requires the most work leveling because it bends. I use little drops to set an initial height on one end so I can do it without help. Got into a little of a pickle in the corner.



The push together fittings don’t allow a 90 to drop in between later 1 and 2 like I had thought it could. I ended up with this frankin-setup for transitioning down the wall to the air and water sources. Trying to decide if I can live with it or not. After all, it’s only infrastructure.

 

[Grant Gunderson]

The push together fittings don’t allow a 90 to drop in between later 1 and 2 like I had thought it could. I ended up with this frankin-setup for transitioning down the wall to the air and water sources. Trying to decide if I can live with it or not. After all, it’s only infrastructure.

Nice job with the unistrut. I'm really glad I used it in my current place as well! It seems no matter how well you plan your layout / lines at some point it seems more tools get added that you didnt plan for and the unistrut sure makes it nice to add more runs latter.

Would switching to a solder joint fix your problem at the corner? For my air drops, I ran those vertically up, then used two elbows to bring them back down. The idea is for most of the moisture to drain back into the main line when the line is not pressurized to facilitate draining the whole system at one low point. In reality I'm not sure how effective that actually is, but thats how I was taught to do it. In my last place I used copper (all soldered fittings) for my air lines and had zero issues. In my current place I used all black iron pipe, and that worked equally as well. However the house plumbing has soured me on copper. This house was built in the early 2000's and they must have had a bad batch as I have had 3 pin hole leaks (twice in elbows and one mid line).

 

[CGohring]

Ooof, I could not live with that one long term. - Especially looking at the quality of all you other work (sorry, this is coming from waaay up high in the peanut gallery, from where I have been a great admirer of your work for many years). - Sometimes when I'm in deep problem solving mode, I forget to take a step back... so just a thought: Is there a good reason why you cannot swap the two copper runs, so that air is in the bottom one?

 

[lilscorpion]

Nice job with the unistrut. I'm really glad I used it in my current place as well! It seems no matter how well you plan your layout / lines at some point it seems more tools get added that you didnt plan for and the unistrut sure makes it nice to add more runs latter.

Would switching to a solder joint fix your problem at the corner? For my air drops, I ran those vertically up, then used two elbows to bring them back down. The idea is for most of the moisture to drain back into the main line when the line is not pressurized to facilitate draining the whole system at one low point. In reality I'm not sure how effective that actually is, but thats how I was taught to do it. In my last place I used copper (all soldered fittings) for my air lines and had zero issues. In my current place I used all black iron pipe, and that worked equally as well. However the house plumbing has soured me on copper. This house was built in the early 2000's and they must have had a bad batch as I have had 3 pin hole leaks (twice in elbows and one mid line).

yes, I think I can turn tighter with a T and a 90 degree street fitting, I just didn’t have one. I might be able to do it with a conventional 90 but I’m not sure I could land two solder joints back to back to make the turn. I’ll get a street elbow, that’s the next thing to try.

Ooof, I could not live with that one long term. - Especially looking at the quality of all you other work (sorry, this is coming from waaay up high in the peanut gallery, from where I have been a great admirer of your work for many years). - Sometimes when I'm in deep problem solving mode, I forget to take a step back... so just a thought: Is there a good reason why you cannot swap the two copper runs, so that air is in the bottom one?

I can’t either. I wasn’t even going to post it but thought since I left it as a stopping point, this being a journal and all, I should add it to the thread.

Could I my swap upper and lower (air/water) - good question. I considered doing so for a few minutes but realized that both copper runs ultimately need to pass one or the other no matter which one is on the bottom. That’s why the down turn needs to be between the two layers instead of outside the top layer if I want it to look clean. What I have now is fugly

 

[rvieceli]

@lilscorpion if you could get those two copper pipes out of the same plane, you could do your drops without interference.

How about a short piece of unistrut above the lower copper pipe, attached with two fasteners to the unistrut piece the copper is attached to so it wouldn't spin and use the pipe clamps on that piece. size the new piece so you had enough space to make your connections without getting in the way of the other pipe.

Ron

 

[rattle_snake]

pull all the drywall and run pipe/wire inside walls? Or just electrical/water then only air left unobstructed?

Otherwise to have to polish all that copper tubing.

 

[larry4406]

Otherwise to have to polish all that copper tubing.

I was in a barracks at Quantico Marine base 45+ years ago and all the copper pipes in the bathrooms was polished. Even the pipes under the sink counters!

 

[racer-john]

That's the military for you. spit and polish.

 

[lilscorpion]

@lilscorpion if you could get those two copper pipes out of the same plane, you could do your drops without interference.

How about a short piece of unistrut above the lower copper pipe, attached with two fasteners to the unistrut piece the copper is attached to so it wouldn't spin and use the pipe clamps on that piece. size the new piece so you had enough space to make your connections without getting in the way of the other pipe.

Ron

I guess I could. Thought about machining something like this hose organizer to accomplish the same thing. Your idea would be easier (at least faster). Think the weird part is neither of the pipes go all the way around so the other challenge is in some spots one or the other or both exist…

pull all the drywall and run pipe/wire inside walls? Or just electrical/water then only air left unobstructed?

Otherwise to have to polish all that copper tubing.

Pull the drywall now? Fawk.

I was in a barracks at Quantico Marine base 45+ years ago and all the copper pipes in the bathrooms was polished. Even the pipes under the sink counters!

Musta been a lot of discipline and team development going on there…

 

[RickP]

I like how good the copper pipes look in the same plane.
Your work on the conduit looks so clean that it makes the copper transition really stand out (in the wrong way).

On the upper water line tee, you could point it straight up and then transition to a threaded stainless water heater hose to make the 180* turn down. By routing it behind the pipes, it might help it blend into the background a bit. (You could always use malleable copper tubing instead, but I think the stainless hose would look better.)

Alternatively, they make a "compression crossover coupling" but it doesn't look any better (and they aren't cheap).
https://www.mcmaster.com/products/couplings/shape~crossover/

 

[madison069]

Without knowing the spacing between the pipes, but maybe another option is to have a Tee pointing up and then make a U shape turn with copper tubing and fittings that will angle the drop between the two lines. Just a thought if a street 90 doesn't fit in the tight area.