Line in Load out?

[Teken]

Is there a NEC code that states that in a residential setting when a outlet is being installed that the LINE SIDE must always enter from above, and the LOAD SIDE must exist from below the device box?

If there are reason(s) or situations could you please explain them to me, as always I appreciate all the feed-back.

 

[Norcal]

No, if someone is saying that they making it up, that is a design issue & the NEC is not a design manual.

 

[Mickey O]

You should only run into line and load on GGCI receptacles, the line is for the supply side the load is for additional receptacle that will be protected by that device, don't know what you mean by code but that;s the only way a GFCI will operate properly. As far as how and where the conductors enter a box, it doesn't matter.

 

[Teken]

Thank you both, that is exactly what I thought. And Mickey, my Q came about because of the GFI installation.

As there is a diagram that shows that all down stream loads must enter from the top, and exit from the bottom of the device box.

Not only does it look ugly, it doesn't look right . . .

 

[Torque1st]

-Instructions translated from...

 

[Teken]

-Instructions translated from...

 

[Torque1st]

That is the result.

Instructions translated from American for dummies, to Chinese, into Korean, then back to Spanish, then to French, and then to Engrish.

 

[comedyman809]

anything can be lin and load, and he did not specify gfci, i work in a plant and i have diconnects that are hooked up with the line coming in from the bottom or side and the load side exiting any where also.

for gfci it is obvious what hooks where, but i think he meant for the box that the outlet/switch/whatever is mounted in. if wires are coming from above, why would you wrap them under, so hook up where it fits most conveinantly, just make sure the wires are hooked up correctly and the terminals are tight, and the connectors for your emt or bx, or romex are nice and tight....the wiring job should look nice and look professional. do not let look like a rats nest or your looking at a fire hazard and make sure ofr gfci that line is to line and the other recepticles are on load.....remember, for a bathroom, each outlet must be dedicated line with a gfci.


kitchen, you only need one gfci and the rest can be regular outles attached to the load side of the gfci.

the refrigerator must be a 15 or 20 amp outlet(DEPENDING ON FRIDGE)...***NOT A GFCI***

 

[Norcal]

anything can be lin and load, and he did not specify gfci, i work in a plant and i have diconnects that are hooked up with the line coming in from the bottom or side and the load side exiting any where also.

for gfci it is obvious what hooks where, but i think he meant for the box that the outlet/switch/whatever is mounted in. if wires are coming from above, why would you wrap them under, so hook up where it fits most conveinantly, just make sure the wires are hooked up correctly and the terminals are tight, and the connectors for your emt or bx, or romex are nice and tight....the wiring job should look nice and look professional. do not let look like a rats nest or your looking at a fire hazard and make sure ofr gfci that line is to line and the other recepticles are on load.....remember, for a bathroom, each outlet must be dedicated line with a gfci.


kitchen, you only need one gfci and the rest can be regular outles attached to the load side of the gfci.

the refrigerator must be a 15 or 20 amp outlet(DEPENDING ON FRIDGE)...***NOT A GFCI***

There is nothing prohibiting refrigerators from being on a GFCI protected circuit nor is it a bad idea to do so, if it does trip it's doing the job intended & the appliance needs to be checked out, newer appliances function quite well & if we were discussing commercial kitchens if it is 120 volts and cord & plug connected it has to have GFCI protection with no exceptions, which is the future everywhere else GFCI's are required as exceptions are being eliminated w/ every new code edition.

 

[Teken]

Norcal,

Can you refresh my memory as to where GFCI's would not be recommended?

I ask because some of this isn't always so clear cut, or rather there appears to be conflict with other things I have observed.

Case in point in my garage along the fire wall the builder has included two 120 VAC lines, neither of these are on GFCI breakers, or plugs. Yet the code states that you should have them outside, isn't the garage still considered outside?

That is why I installed the other two GFCI's on either side of the walls. But the ones above the ceiling and 9 feet above the either side of the garage door opener I left those as standard unprotected outlets.

As I noticed in our extreme climate when I plugged in the block heater that it would trip each time I plugged it in to the GFCI outlet, but would not trip the standard outlet.

This happens to the other 2 vehicles which are new, so I know it's not the block heaters, but simply because these units are very sensitive, but in my eye's they are doing their jobs . . .

Insight?

 

[Norcal]

Norcal,

Can you refresh my memory as to where GFCI's would not be recommended?

I ask because some of this isn't always so clear cut, or rather there appears to be conflict with other things I have observed.

Case in point in my garage along the fire wall the builder has included two 120 VAC lines, neither of these are on GFCI breakers, or plugs. Yet the code states that you should have them outside, isn't the garage still considered outside?

That is why I installed the other two GFCI's on either side of the walls. But the ones above the ceiling and 9 feet above the either side of the garage door opener I left those as standard unprotected outlets.

As I noticed in our extreme climate when I plugged in the block heater that it would trip each time I plugged it in to the GFCI outlet, but would not trip the standard outlet.

This happens to the other 2 vehicles which are new, so I know it's not the block heaters, but simply because these units are very sensitive, but in my eye's they are doing their jobs . . .

Insight?

I have a '95 Dodge diesel PU & my block heater does fine on a GFCI prot. circuit this is outdoors in the rain & using a extension cord too... I would say there is a malfunction w/ yours.

GFCI's do poorly w/ VFD's they trip immediately! Other then that off hand cannot think of anything else that does poorly w/ current production GFCI units, as a whole they work pretty darn well & are cheap too. But don't get started on AFCI's IMO, they are **** that in theory is a good idea but still is unproven technology being tested on the public.

 

[comedyman809]

There is nothing prohibiting refrigerators from being on a GFCI protected circuit nor is it a bad idea to do so, if it does trip it's doing the job intended & the appliance needs to be checked out, newer appliances function quite well & if we were discussing commercial kitchens if it is 120 volts and cord & plug connected it has to have GFCI protection with no exceptions, which is the future everywhere else GFCI's are required as exceptions are being eliminated w/ every new code edition.

im actually taking an eletric course to get up to speed on nomenclature and codes

last week we discussed gfci's and he specifically said that a fridge must not be on a gfci because they way it works and its current draw.

 

[comedyman809]

i have the class tonight, and i will ask him again about it.

but this guy knows his stuff pretty well, i would hope he knows what he is talking about.

i do know that the gfci is stricly for a wet location. that includes kitchen countertops, bathrooms, outdoors, and other area where moisture tends to hang out. on the bottom of a fridge, there is no moisture nor any sink or toilet. so im putting the jury out on this, i will return tonight with answers.

 

[Teken]

I have a '95 Dodge diesel PU & my block heater does fine on a GFCI prot. circuit this is outdoors in the rain & using a extension cord too... I would say there is a malfunction w/ yours.

I'm not sure how one would verify that these items are 100% with out more information to be honest.

Maybe I need to take one apart and compare it to the other one's I have n a box, to get a base line as to what the tolerances are.

The following are some of the things I did prior and after the extra wiring installation.

- Using the builders GFCI, I measured the voltage, rock steady 120 VAC.

- Tripped the GFCI with the test button, button pops out, power goes out, yellow LED comes on. Measure with a Fluke DMM, outlet is dead as door nail.

- Reset the GFCI, plug in one of my line testers, device verifies wiring is correct, depress on the test switch, GFCI trips.

- Plug in a normal 120 VAC device, from lights, radio, timer, etc. All work fine, I plug in the block heater, bam goes off immediately?

- I repeated this same scenario with the two other GFCI's, all test fine, until you plug in the block heater. The only thing I can think is that it's so cold out here that there appears to be short to ground from the moisture in the engine block.

This is why I decided to have standard outlets above the walls, and in the ceilings . .

 

[sberry]

I have a tractor heater, block type that trips gfci, I spose there is some minor leakage with the element. Its grounded, I don't lose sleep over it, I have one recept for it that bypass the gfci. I believe they make them in 30ma for some types of equipment, not quite so sensitive. GFCI's work well and do their job, especially important for ungrounded appliances.

 

[Mickey O]

There is nothing prohibiting refrigerators from being on a GFCI protected circuit nor is it a bad idea to do so, if it does trip it's doing the job intended & the appliance needs to be checked out, newer appliances function quite well & if we were discussing commercial kitchens if it is 120 volts and cord & plug connected it has to have GFCI protection with no exceptions, which is the future everywhere else GFCI's are required as exceptions are being eliminated w/ every new code edition.

It's a terrible idea unless you like rotten food.

 

[Teken]

Where I live GFCI's are not required for the fridge, but it must be on a dedicated 20 amp outlet.

 

[Norcal]

It's a old wives tale that GFCI's are bad for fridges , nothing more then gossip.

 

[comedyman809]

Nec states. No gfci for fridge.


Compressors do not have current leakage to ground low enough to be used on a gfci.


A gfci will trip when the current leakage to ground is 4 - 6 milliamps.

So No gfci on fridge

 

[Norcal]

Nec states. No gfci for fridge.


Compressors do not have current leakage to ground low enough to be used on a gfci.


A gfci will trip when the current leakage to ground is 4 - 6 milliamps.

So No gfci on fridge

Please quote article.

 

[Aceman]

Is there a NEC code that states that in a residential setting when a outlet is being installed that the LINE SIDE must always enter from above, and the LOAD SIDE must exist from below the device box?

If there are reason(s) or situations could you please explain them to me, as always I appreciate all the feed-back.

404.6(C) is the closest you'll get. That applies to fused disconnect switches requiring the blades to be unenergized when the handle is off. The other requirement is if a disconnect/breaker/etc is marked line/load you must follow it. But for regular receps, it doesn't matter.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

In "dwelling unit" KITCHENS, NEC 210.8A(6) only requires GFCI on receptacles that will serve countertop surfaces. This is unchanged from 2005 to 2008 code.

2008 NEC 210.8B(2) - In other than dwelling unit KITCHENS (restaurants, churches, where ever) then ALL 125v 15 and 20 amp receptacles must be GFCI. This is an expansion of the requirements from 2005 which only required them near sinks and food preparation areas

---------

2005 NEC 210.8A(2) "exception to (2)" said that with respect to "dwelling units" a single receptacle with a single appliance or a duplex receptacle with two appliances (fridge's or freezers are the intended target) that is located in a garage, or accessory structure (grade level or below) that is not habitable space (storage, workshop, etc) does NOT have to have GFCI protection.

2008 NEC eliminates the appliance exception.

I have paraphrased to eliminate lots of typing.

Charles

 

[Teken]

In "dwelling unit" KITCHENS, NEC 210.8A(6) only requires GFCI on receptacles that will serve countertop surfaces. This is unchanged from 2005 to 2008 code.

2008 NEC 210.8B(2) - In other than dwelling unit KITCHENS (restaurants, churches, where ever) then ALL 125v 15 and 20 amp receptacles must be GFCI. This is an expansion of the requirements from 2005 which only required them near sinks and food preparation areas

---------

2005 NEC 210.8A(2) "exception to (2)" said that with respect to "dwelling units" a single receptacle with a single appliance or a duplex receptacle with two appliances (fridge's or freezers are the intended target) that is located in a garage, or accessory structure (grade level or below) that is not habitable space (storage, workshop, etc) does NOT have to have GFCI protection.

2008 NEC eliminates the appliance exception.

I have paraphrased to eliminate lots of typing.

Charles

Reading that then a GFCI would not be required in the garage at all. So, most people such as myself install them just as a extra measure of safety?

 

[Norcal]

GFCI's are required in garages...

 

[BioHazard]

last week we discussed gfci's and he specifically said that a fridge must not be on a gfci because they way it works and its current draw.

He's specifically wrong, and it has nothing to do with current draw. Fridges actually draw very little current.

As someone pointed out there is an EXCEPTION for fridges in private kitchens, but that doesn't mean you CAN'T use a GFCI either.

SOME older fridges are known to blow GFCIs for no good reason. I have one of these in my shop - it works fine, I've tested everything I can, but it won't run for more than a few minutes on a GFCI. This is the reason for the exception - too many people are still using old fridges in their kitchen. As norcal said this exception will probably be removed in coming years.

You won't have this problem if you have a new(er) fridge. I'm talking 1992 technology. All three refrigerators in my house are on GFCIs, and they don't complain.

 

[Teken]

GFCI's are required in garages...

Alright this confuses me then . . . Why then are the two on the fire wall not protected with a GFCI breaker, or a outlet?

The only GFCI on the out side of the house are in the rear, and at the front porch, this I understand because they are out side.

But in the garage there are none, other than the two I have installed and wired in down stream for the others.

And people wonder why so many questions get asked . . .

 

[oleguy]

Alright this confuses me then . . . Why then are the two on the fire wall not protected with a GFCI breaker, or a outlet?

The only GFCI on the out side of the house are in the rear, and at the front porch, this I understand because they are out side.

But in the garage there are none, other than the two I have installed and wired in down stream for the others.

And people wonder why so many questions get asked . . .

because someone doesn't know or care.it's in the code...

 

[comedyman809]

He's specifically wrong, and it has nothing to do with current draw. Fridges actually draw very little current.

As someone pointed out there is an EXCEPTION for fridges in private kitchens, but that doesn't mean you CAN'T use a GFCI either.

SOME older fridges are known to blow GFCIs for no good reason. I have one of these in my shop - it works fine, I've tested everything I can, but it won't run for more than a few minutes on a GFCI. This is the reason for the exception - too many people are still using old fridges in their kitchen. As norcal said this exception will probably be removed in coming years.

You won't have this problem if you have a new(er) fridge. I'm talking 1992 technology. All three refrigerators in my house are on GFCIs, and they don't complain.

i didnt mean current draw, i meant current leakage to ground which is completely different .

a gfci is designed to prevent the user from shock while using the plugged in appliance.

it is NOT an overload protection device, that what the circuit breaker is for.

gfci is for wet location. fridge area is not a wet location.

 

[BioHazard]

fridge area is not a wet location.

The kitchen is a wet location. As norcal said a GFCI would be REQUIRED in a commercial kitchen for a fridge.

Alright this confuses me then . . . Why then are the two on the fire wall not protected with a GFCI breaker, or a outlet?

Installed wrong? You know Canadia has their own entire set of rules similar too, but different from the US NEC, right?

 

[comedyman809]

just excerpts i found online, maybe code doesnt say you shouldnt, but:

Generally, equipment such as refrigerators, freezers and sump pumps that cannot go without electrical power for an extended period of time without causing costly losses or property damage should not be placed on a GFCI. protected circuit. GFCIs are very sensitive and are subject to nuisance tripping.

the compressors tend to trip them, and you may wake up to spoiled food when you want somethign to eat.

i found more stuff on "nuisance tripping'' ....yeah, so the gfci on a fridge is a bad idea.

stop thinking you going overboard on safety is going to be a good thing, this one is not.

 

[comedyman809]

The kitchen is a wet location. As norcal said a GFCI would be REQUIRED in a commercial kitchen for a fridge.


Installed wrong? You know Canadia has their own entire set of rules similar too, but different from the US NEC, right?

wet location in a kitchen(residential) is on the countertop.

is the outlet for your fridge above the countertop??

or is it a few inches from the floor behind the fridge????

 

[Teken]

The kitchen is a wet location. As norcal said a GFCI would be REQUIRED in a commercial kitchen for a fridge.


Installed wrong? You know Canadia has their own entire set of rules similar too, but different from the US NEC, right?

Yes, you're correct and I will verify the information tomorrow. I gather if it was code it would have been installed by my builder as they were very good and no corners were cut what so ever . . .

This is the problem when I am on International sites where each local has variences in code.

At the end of the day I am sure I am above code in this respect, but find it odd that given our climate and conditions.

Wet in, wet out, makes no difference! Electricity doesn't care if you believe in code or not, it just will kill you either way.

That's why I air on the side of caution and installed them, regardless of what our codes mandate.

Many thanks again, one and all . . .

 

[comedyman809]

Originally Posted by Teken
Alright this confuses me then . . . Why then are the two on the fire wall not protected with a GFCI breaker, or a outlet?


firewall??? i assume backsplash, if there is one gfci, and any other outlets,the 2 NON-gfci outlets are probably hooked into the LOAD side of the GFCI which is the ideal way to be connected, do not replace the non-gfci's with gfci's. one gfci is all you need on a kitchen countertop, just make sure any other outlet is hooked to the load side.

 

[oleguy]

fire wall he is talking about is the wall between house and garage on inside of garage.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

In "dwelling unit" KITCHENS, NEC 210.8A(6) only requires GFCI on receptacles that will serve countertop surfaces. This is unchanged from 2005 to 2008 code.

2008 NEC 210.8B(2) - In other than dwelling unit KITCHENS (restaurants, churches, where ever) then ALL 125v 15 and 20 amp receptacles must be GFCI. This is an expansion of the requirements from 2005 which only required them near sinks and food preparation areas

---------

2005 NEC 210.8A(2) "exception to (2)" said that with respect to "dwelling units" a single receptacle with a single appliance or a duplex receptacle with two appliances (fridge's or freezers are the intended target) that is located in a garage, or accessory structure (grade level or below) that is not habitable space (storage, workshop, etc) does NOT have to have GFCI protection.

2008 NEC eliminates the appliance exception.

I have paraphrased to eliminate lots of typing.

Charles

Reading that then a GFCI would not be required in the garage at all. So, most people such as myself install them just as a extra measure of safety?

Not sure where you get this from.

In garages, accessory buildings, certain other non-habitable spaces, the GFCI is mandatory on grade or below (but not second floor). The exception existed in 2005 code for non-GFCI "appliance" receptacles, but no longer exists.

My point was that in residential kitchens, only counter top outlets must be GFCI, while in NON-residential kitchens, ALL receptacles must be GFCI.

In other areas the fridge would need to be on a GFCI.

Charles

 

[comedyman809]

In the U.S., the National Electrical Code requires GFCIs for underwater swimming pool lights (1968); construction sites (1974); bathrooms and outdoor areas (1975); garages (1978); near hot tubs or spas (1981); hotel bathrooms (1984); kitchen counter receptacles (1987, revised 1996 and specifically excluding the refrigerator outlet, which is usually on a dedicated circuit); crawl spaces and unfinished basements (1990); wet bar sinks (1993); laundry sinks (2005)

an excerpt from wikipedia.

 

[BioHazard]

kitchen counter receptacles (1987, revised 1996 and specifically excluding the refrigerator outlet, which is usually on a dedicated circuit)

Right...but as we come out with newer and newer code revisions, that fridge exception is going to disappear. The timeline you posted makes that kind of obvious. It's only an issue if you have an old fridge, I'm sure there's a certain model year/energy star requirement these days that absolutely will not trip a GFCI unless something is wrong.

Honestly I'm surprised they don't make us mount a full amperage GFCI device at the meter...

 

[BioHazard]

This is the problem when I am on International sites where each local has variences in code.

Isn't it funny how things are "safe" on one part of the grid, and not in another, with the same wires?

 

[Mickey O]

anything can be lin and load,

Not true.

and he did not specify gfci,

He didn't have to, he said it was an outlet, what other type of receptacles have a line and load?

Is there a NEC code that states that in a residential setting when a outlet is being installed that the LINE SIDE must always enter from above, and the LOAD SIDE must exist from below the device box?

If there are reason(s) or situations could you please explain them to me, as always I appreciate all the feed-back.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

That is the result.

Instructions translated from American for dummies, to Chinese, into Korean, then back to Spanish, then to French, and then to Engrish.

I'm dealing with a little of that. Original technical documents were written in English by Boeing (Service Bulletins). They were translated into Spanish for the airline operating the aircraft (airline engineering document that mimics the Boeing SB). The operator needed to provide us with English versions of these documents, so rather than use the original SB for the wording, they translated their Spanish document to English. Now it doesn't read well at all.

Charles