Lithium ion battery fires.

[mike1956]

So far this yr 33 Lithium Ion fires in NYC and over 200 last yr causing house fires with a number of fatalities
So here's my situation, I currently charge my cordless tool batteries in my heated basement. But decided it's time to move all batteries and chargers out to my detached garage which happens to be unheated. Lithium Ion batteries don't charge in freezing temps so I'm thinking of making a battery storage box say out of plywood with some type of heating source maybe a heating pad or a small low wattage lightbulb to keep the batts and chargers above freezing.
Anyone out there try this or have any ideas??

 

[engineer2]

My understanding is most lithium battery fires happen in consumer products because designers want a very quick charging time and/or use low quality cells. I haven't heard of problems with power tools, has anyone else?

 

[71goldss]

Most of fires I've heard of are cell phones and EV's. Have heard nothing of tool batteries, but doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[kbeefy]

I've seen a couple designs use a medium sized cooler as an insulated box for charging.
If you want to get really fancy there are thermestatic heater controls you can use to keep it above freezing.

 

[joel_400]

The hobby store we recently went to had pics of a local lithium battery fire caused by RC vehicle batteries. We purchase a battery bag from the store. The kid at the store also recommended storing them in a metal ammo box away from flammable items. At least then if they catch fire it's contained. Scary stuff when you think about it! The devastation of house fires has always scared me.
Joel

 

[Aaron_W]

If the intent is to reduce the severity of a fire, then I'd suggest making the battery box out of something that won't literally add fuel to the fire. Building it from wood will just make any fire worse, sheet metal and or sheet rock would be far more resistant.

 

[M635_Guy]

So far this yr 33 Lithium Ion fires in NYC and over 200 last yr causing house fires with a number of fatalities
So here's my situation, I currently charge my cordless tool batteries in my heated basement. But decided it's time to move all batteries and chargers out to my detached garage which happens to be unheated. Lithium Ion batteries don't charge in freezing temps so I'm thinking of making a battery storage box say out of plywood with some type of heating source maybe a heating pad or a small low wattage lightbulb to keep the batts and chargers above freezing.
Anyone out there try this or have any ideas??

I'm not an expert by any means, but have some experience with this. The risk is mainly during charging. Rarely discharging but that's generally attributable to damaged or defective cells. Since the laptop and phone incidents several years ago there's generally much better QC for discharge-type issues.

For charging-related issues, it's generally crappy chargers trying to quickly charge batteries that are already in a highly-charged state, or cheap-o cells (or both).

This is the reason I don't do third-party batteries for anything that has a high density of cells (I will for my SLR cameras as backups).

The safest thing is to not leave batteries sitting on the charger, and don't leave removeable batteries installed. Generally best to charge only to 80%-90% and try not to run them to zero (this also will help extend the life-span of the batteries).

 

[f121]

You need some more data before you can effectively assess the risk.

of those fires:
- what percentage were home-brew battery packs in RC toys, electric mopeds, etc?
- what percentage were consumer devices with known issues (2015 15” MacBook Pros, Samsung Note 7, etc)
- what percentage of the fires that do not fit the above categories, were damaged cells (cracked casings, moisture ingress, etc).
- what percentage of the fires that do not meet any of the above categories were non-oem batteries for power tools

Once you have this (and maybe along the way you’ll find the statistics for your type of battery), you can start assessing your devices and equipment for fire risk and taking appropriate measures.

Start with if any of your devices fit in the categories of high fire risk? E.g. If you have one of the fire risk MacBook Pros, stop using it immediately. Alternatively if none of your devices have known fire risk due to poor design/manufacture, are not damaged, are genuine makita/dewalt/Milwaukee packs, maybe the risk is low enough you don’t need further controls.

 

[mike1956]

You need some more data before you can effectively assess the risk.

of those fires:
- what percentage were home-brew battery packs in RC toys, electric mopeds, etc?
- what percentage were consumer devices with known issues (2015 15” MacBook Pros, Samsung Note 7, etc)
- what percentage of the fires that do not fit the above categories, were damaged cells (cracked casings, moisture ingress, etc).
- what percentage of the fires that do not meet any of the above categories were non-oem batteries for power tools

Once you have this (and maybe along the way you’ll find the statistics for your type of battery), you can start assessing your devices and equipment for fire risk and taking appropriate measures.

Start with if any of your devices fit in the categories of high fire risk? E.g. If you have one of the fire risk MacBook Pros, stop using it immediately. Alternatively if none of your devices have known fire risk due to poor design/manufacture, are not damaged, are genuine makita/dewalt/Milwaukee packs, maybe the risk is low enough you don’t need further controls.

I probably have over a dozen LI batteries and 6 or more chargers. I've pretty much gone totally cordless. Pretty sure out of the hundreds of fires some had to have been cordless tool batteries. That's good enough for me. When it comes to avoiding the devastation of a house fire I'm not going base risk on stats. Batteries and chargers are going out in the detached garage, I just have to figure a way to keep them warm. My garage is insured. My family members lives are not.

 

[danski0224]

It has been years, but I know one person that just about lost his house from a cordless tool battery charger, and I have been on 2 jobsites where cordless tool chargers set off smoke alarms but did not reach the point of actually bursting into flames. The firefighter on the jobsite said that this was not a unique incident.

So, I am in the camp where I will NEVER leave a cordless tool battery on a charger, indefinitely and unattended.

I would assume that newer consumer cordless tool battery chargers are not made to any better standards than when those incidents happened.

The current production LiIon batteries do not go flat like NiCd or NiMh over a short period of time, and I have a couple of fast chargers, so keeping up with charging batteries is not an issue.

 

[Citation]

In most cases I'm aware of the issue is large Li-ion batteries like electric bikes, hover boards etc. There are also cases with EVs which are REALLY big electric batteries. The odds that an OEM tool will catch fire is extremely remote.

 

[zendriver]

Going out on a limb here, but a guess is that Milwaukee, Dewalt, etc. larger name brand products might put a lot of time and effort, in the design and testing of batteries and chargers, to assure they perform safely.

The literally million of other companies, that integrate Lion batteries and/or chargers, maybe not as much.

 

[bwringer]

It has been years, but I know one person that just about lost his house from a cordless tool battery charger, and I have been on 2 jobsites where cordless tool chargers set off smoke alarms but did not reach the point of actually bursting into flames. The firefighter on the jobsite said that this was not a unique incident.

So, I am in the camp where I will NEVER leave a cordless tool battery on a charger, indefinitely and unattended.

I would assume that newer consumer cordless tool battery chargers are not made to any better standards than when those incidents happened.

The current production LiIon batteries do not go flat like NiCd or NiMh over a short period of time, and I have a couple of fast chargers, so keeping up with charging batteries is not an issue.

Right, the low-quality chargers are much more of a problem than the batteries, and they have been a problem from the earliest days of NiCad battery tools.

Chargers for lead-acid batteries also have a surprising failure rate. In a discussion on a large motorcycling website, there were several firsthand reports of garage fires caused by major brand battery maintainers left plugged in.

I generally don't leave chargers plugged in, and I don't leave batteries of any type on a charger when I am not present.

 

[M635_Guy]

I probably have over a dozen LI batteries and 6 or more chargers. I've pretty much gone totally cordless. Pretty sure out of the hundreds of fires some had to have been cordless tool batteries. That's good enough for me. When it comes to avoiding the devastation of a house fire I'm not going base risk on stats. Batteries and chargers are going out in the detached garage, I just have to figure a way to keep them warm. My garage is insured. My family members lives are not.

Instead of moving the risk, you should change behavior to remove it.

You can reduce the risk significantly of a during-charge incident by sticking with the factory charger and OEM batteries.

You can essentially eliminate the risk by not leaving the batteries on chargers when you're not there (it's the reason I own a Milwaukee quick-charger) and by not leaving the battery in the tool when not in use.

Doing the things above will render it entirely safe for the tools to remain in your house.

 

[danski0224]

Going out on a limb here, but a guess is that Milwaukee, Dewalt, etc. larger name brand products might put a lot of time and effort, in the design and testing of batteries and chargers, to assure they perform safely.

The literally million of other companies, that integrate Lion batteries and/or chargers, maybe not as much.

I didn't want to name names, but Yellow and Red come to mind.

 

[Zewnten]

First go through your house and get rid off all the off brand cell phone chargers, most use a cheaper or no chip set leading to over charging. Second don't knock off cordless toys, and honeslty probably even some name brand ones I wouldn't. But yes if you were going to keep you rbatteries on a charger I'd do it in a unattached shed but like another poster said I'd try to find a metal box so maybe if they did have a "thermal event" you might keep the shed after.

As for the name brand doesn't do that camp I suggest looking it up. Lots of results for even name brand manufacturers having issues.

 

[zendriver]

I didn't want to name names, but Yellow and Red come to mind.

Like you stated, it's been years.

Lion battery technology and uses, kind of went from 0-100mph pretty quick. Folks were pretty happy to dump NiCad.

Not hard to imagine over the years many have refined the functionality and safety of the technology, not perfectly of course.

 

[dogdog]

I wouldn’t be too stress on tool battery type li-ion but if you have an unknown names e-bike or scooter etc toy that have high output lithium battery or fast charger then I would be concern. Not all lithium batteries are the same.

 

[KenB]

For cold-proof storage in your garage you might try an old refrigerator with an incandescent light bulb inside. Don‘t know what you could do to keep it cool, but a wifi temperature probe could at least send you an alert if the temp got out of range.

Ken

 

[Citation]

First go through your house and get rid off all the off brand cell phone chargers, most use a cheaper or no chip set leading to over charging. Second don't knock off cordless toys, and honeslty probably even some name brand ones I wouldn't. But yes if you were going to keep you rbatteries on a charger I'd do it in a unattached shed but like another poster said I'd try to find a metal box so maybe if they did have a "thermal event" you might keep the shed after.

As for the name brand doesn't do that camp I suggest looking it up. Lots of results for even name brand manufacturers having issues.

Cell phone "chargers" aren't chargers, they are power supplies that just provide 5V (or other voltage per the USB standard). The charger and charge control circuits are built into the phone. That is basically true of any device that has a USB port for charging.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I wouldn’t be too stress on tool battery type li-ion but if you have an unknown names e-bike or scooter etc toy that have high output lithium battery or fast charger then I would be concern. Not all lithium batteries are the same.

To basic types : lithium-ion (more correctly lithium-cobalt) and lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4). The specific chemistry is actually a manufactures secret and they are tweaking it all of the time (Cobalt is expensive so they are trying to limit the quantity.)

LiCo is most commonly found in cylinderical metal cans (cells). To save space they sometimes come in plastic (polymer) pouches that are called LiPo. These hold the most power for their size. They will burn/explode if overcharged or discharged or damaged/crushed.

LiFePO4 will not burn/explode.

You can make a fire resistant box fairly cheaply. Wood frame, covered with 3 - 4 layers of drywall. Use fire-stop foam to seal all seams. Try to make sure that the seams for the different layers do not line up. You need a strong latching lid.

 

[zendriver]

So, 200 Lion battery fires - of an undetermined situation, in a city of 8.5 million people, is a big concern?

have any ideas??

Yes, not worry about it, at least with tools.

I don't. I'll plug a battery in and literally forget about it. Next time I see it noticing it's fully charged, I'll remove it and go ahead with life. My EGO batteries get pretty warm when charging, but they are pretty big, but cool down when fully charged.

Otherwise the heated battery box, sounds like a good idea.

 

[BombShelter]

I have dozens of Eneloop/IKEA rechargable batteries and have been using them for years, last fall I put three AAA in a small flashlight and set it on a bed while I got ready for work. About five minutes later the flashlight was smoking intensely, luckily it smelled horrible otherwise I might have missed it.

I did have one battery in it with a different AH then the other two. I'm not sure why it heated up when it was turned off?

 

[Citation]

I have dozens of Eneloop/IKEA rechargable batteries and have been using them for years, last fall I put three AAA in a small flashlight and set it on a bed while I got ready for work. About five minutes later the flashlight was smoking intensely, luckily it smelled horrible otherwise I might have missed it.

I did have one battery in it with a different AH then the other two. I'm not sure why it heated up when it was turned off?

That was likely some type of dead short. NiMH battery chemistry is inherently stable. It will release heat if shorted but it does not vent a flammable gas. The same are not true of our typical Li-ion chemistries.

 

[dscheidt]

It has been years, but I know one person that just about lost his house from a cordless tool battery charger, and I have been on 2 jobsites where cordless tool chargers set off smoke alarms but did not reach the point of actually bursting into flames. The firefighter on the jobsite said that this was not a unique incident.

I know people whose houses have burned down because their television caught fire. Do you unplug yours when you're not using it? Do you park a car in your garage? Lots of house fires start when a car catches fire.

 

[danski0224]

I know people whose houses have burned down because their television caught fire. Do you unplug yours when you're not using it? Do you park a car in your garage? Lots of house fires start when a car catches fire.

Neither my TV or car has lithium ion batteries, nor are they plugged into a battery charger.

The stripper pole and bar takes up too much room in the garage to park the car in there.

 

[JunkBonds]

First go through your house and get rid off all the off brand cell phone chargers, most use a cheaper or no chip set leading to over charging. Second don't knock off cordless toys, and honeslty probably even some name brand ones I wouldn't. But yes if you were going to keep you rbatteries on a charger I'd do it in a unattached shed but like another poster said I'd try to find a metal box so maybe if they did have a "thermal event" you might keep the shed after.

As for the name brand doesn't do that camp I suggest looking it up. Lots of results for even name brand manufacturers having issues.

I have not had a cell phone that did not have its own built in charger for a very long time. Plug the usb cord in and it chargers. The phone controls it all.

Li Fe batteries are extremely unlikely to self destruct. Older Li Ion batteries and cheaply made batteries are dangerous.

ICE cars catch fire quite frequently in garages. More so than EV cars.

 

[jonesg]

I charge L-ion batteries in the garage only for my milwaukee tools, Maine winters are very cold and I never work on my car until spring so I store all the batteries in the basement after charging for winter, in an old heavy metal stockpot on concrete, if they burn..let them burn I don't care.
So far they're 5 yrs old and I haven't lost one yet, 12v and 18v. Good batteries are twice the price of knock-offs.

 

[duneslider]

Just don't leave batteries on the charger longer than needed to charge. In all cases of consumer electronics, get a timer to plug them into and set the time to kill power after the charge is complete.

I did some research a while back and most battery fires I found were from scooters, hover boards, bikes, and mostly all were "chinese" cheap products. Very few instances of what most would consider high quality name brand items.

 

[M635_Guy]

I charge L-ion batteries in the garage only for my milwaukee tools, Maine winters are very cold and I never work on my car until spring so I store all the batteries in the basement after charging for winter, in an old heavy metal stockpot on concrete, if they burn..let them burn I don't care.
So far they're 5 yrs old and I haven't lost one yet, 12v and 18v. Good batteries are twice the price of knock-offs.

The best storage-state for a battery is low-change, not high-charge - like 30%.

 

[jonesg]

The best storage-state for a battery is low-change, not high-charge - like 30%.

I don't care, its worked for 5 years so far and I'm sticking with it.

 

[ItsNemo]

The best storage-state for a battery is low-change, not high-charge - like 30%.

Despite that, I usually leave mine in whatever state of charge they are in...full or empty or whatever. All of my Dewalt packs (and I have close to 30 of them) still work after 7ish years on the oldest ones.

Short of laptops which stay plugged in, all other charging I just do while I'm present...never unattended and that goes for literally anything I have with a battery, phones, tools, other electronics, etc. and make sure never to charge anything that is damaged. I do keep my RC batteries in a steel compartment box like this though (was convenient, already had it, and plastic dividers prevent shorting out anything) and charge in a pouch.

 

[M635_Guy]

I don't care, its worked for 5 years so far and I'm sticking with it.

Despite that, I usually leave mine in whatever state of charge they are in...full or empty or whatever. All of my Dewalt packs (and I have close to 30 of them) still work after 7ish years on the oldest ones.

I tend to leave mine at whatever state they're in too - usually not flat, but I don't charge them until I'm getting ready to use them. If I'm doing something early, I'll charge the day/night before.

 

[LWB]

I just kill the main breaker on the electrical panel before leaving the house. I still worry about the third car catching fire in the driveway though...And then there's the shed with all those darn chemicals

 

[Bubba Fett]

This is why you stay away from no-name/random-letter "brands" on Amazon and Ebay. The reputable tool brands will have better batteries and chargers. The no-name brands are not going to put the effort into using protected cells or chargers, because frankly, they don't really care if your house burns down. And you can't sue them because they are based in China, and even if you could, they would just change their name again and keep on spitting out faulty equipment. Reputable brands perform quality control, and will issue recalls for defective products.

Everyone needs to read this. It's lengthy, but very informative:

BU-304a: Safety Concerns with Li-ion

Learn what causes Li-ion to fail and what to do in case of fire. Battery makers are obligated to meet safety requirements, but less reputable firms may cheat.

batteryuniversity.com

 

[SM Racing]

Customer just had a three year old Dyson blow up in his closet. Sounded like two shotguns went off at one time. He ran down the hall and found smoke pouring out of a closet. Good thing he had double layer sheetrock inside.

 

[reader2580]

Supposedly, a lot of the NYC fires are from charging of crappy non-UL listed batteries for Ebikes. There is starting to be a push for LifePO4 batteries, but they are less energy dense and often cost more.

 

[dogdog]

Supposedly, a lot of the NYC fires are from charging of crappy non-UL listed batteries for Ebikes. There is starting to be a push for LifePO4 batteries, but they are less energy dense and often cost more.

wait till the EVs are mandatory

 

[zendriver]

wait till the EVs are mandatory

They are going to force me to ride an eBike?

 

[tarbellb]

wait till the EVs are mandatory

Yeah the tech and safety will be even better

How worried were you when the Combustion! engine hit the roads