Look at this will ya

[zimman]

So I need to install a RV plug and found this. This is why I hate people LOL
And to make it harder I think there is no breaker for this sub panel. This junk is outside where the garage (carriage house) used to be.
What would you do?
Zim

 

[mm08822]

Need more details....what's upstream/downstream of this?

This is part of the fix:

 

[fitter30]

Pull the panel replace it with Weather proof plastic junction box for all the splices for a new panel add a ground rod. Inside where they splice into the main. Hang another sub panel with the correct breaker for the wire size if there's no room in the main panel.

 

[Codyboy]

Looks like there are plenty of spaces left to do an RV plug .

 

[Shiftless]

So somebody has this mess on their property and wants to set up a spot to power an RV?
Better rip everything out and look closely at every thing else on the property to assess the additional problems.

 

[PCustoms]

So I need to install a RV plug and found this. This is why I hate people LOL
And to make it harder I think there is no breaker for this sub panel. This junk is outside where the garage (carriage house) used to be.
What would you do?
Zim

While that's total hack work I'm confused by your question.

Do you need whatever that extension cord? If not, remove it and plug the hole. If you need it, add a ****** to the hole, and exterior box and put a GFCI in.

As for the RV outlet there looks to be plenty of room.

As for the main breaker, the breaker in the upper right is marked "main" and feeds this panel. Technically it needs a hold down kit.

 

[MovingAlong]

What would you do?
Zim

First, I'd admit that there is a problem bigger than just adding an RV plug that needs fixing.

Second, I'd fix it... rip out every single thing that wasn't done right. That may end right there at the panel feed wires, it may end all the way back at the pole from the power company. But that's just me, you'll do what's right for you.

Good luck!

 

[Norcal]

While that's total hack work I'm confused by your question.

Do you need whatever that extension cord? If not, remove it and plug the hole. If you need it, add a ****** to the hole, and exterior box and put a GFCI in.

As for the RV outlet there looks to be plenty of room.

As for the main breaker, the breaker in the upper right is marked "main" and feeds this panel. Technically it needs a hold down kit.

The hold down requirement has not always been in place, this one may have been installed prior to the requirement.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

umm wow what a mess.

neutral and ground going to same bar is a big no no in a subpanel...

 

[Milton Shaw]

I notice that the 50 amp was a two pole with black and red wires that had been changed to a 120 volt circuit with the red being changed to ground. So that means a sub panel or major plug has been changed to a 120 volt. I wonder if that was corrected as this was done many years ago with fabric electrical tape it looks like. I would get an electrician out there to correct unless you have the knowledge/experience to correct it. Also no bushing on the 120 volt plug in cord that's plugged illegally into that illegally placed duplex outlet.

 

[logical]

Seriously...no cover plate on the outlet!!!

 

[AA/FC]

So I need to install a RV plug and found this. This is why I hate people LOL
And to make it harder I think there is no breaker for this sub panel. This junk is outside where the garage (carriage house) used to be.
What would you do?
Zim

Did you take the cover off for the picture, or is the cover missing?

If there is no cover, I'd start over with a new panel.

 

[Dagny]

looks like 4 wires feeding it so separate grounds and neutrals . not sure if it's against any code to have a receptacle in a panel don't know why any one would do it. Those are very good panels cadmium plated copper buss.

 

[zimman]

Did you take the cover off for the picture, or is the cover missing?

If there is no cover, I'd start over with a new panel.

I took the cover off.
Zim

 

[zimman]

Pull the panel replace it with Weather proof plastic junction box for all the splices for a new panel add a ground rod. Inside where they splice into the main. Hang another sub panel with the correct breaker for the wire size if there's no room in the main panel.

I'll bet I can throw a rock and hit your house. Allen St.
Zim

 

[zimman]

This feed comes from the house. As far as I know there is no breaker for this feed. It has no pole connection.
Then the other lines go out to another receptacle and a small barn.
Zim

 

[zimman]

While that's total hack work I'm confused by your question.

Do you need whatever that extension cord? If not, remove it and plug the hole. If you need it, add a ****** to the hole, and exterior box and put a GFCI in.

As for the RV outlet there looks to be plenty of room.

As for the main breaker, the breaker in the upper right is marked "main" and feeds this panel. Technically it needs a hold down kit.

Feed for this box comes from the house. I've tested the breakers and as far as I can tell there is none for this remote panel.
I took off the cover.
I'm going to pull the extension cord and blue box out.
I just wanted to know if putting in a 30amp breaker and wiring a RV plug would be okay.
Zim

 

[PCustoms]

Feed for this box comes from the house. I've tested the breakers and as far as I can tell there is none for this remote panel.

Any clue where the wire coming into the panel is from?

Where is your meter in relation to this panel? Is there a breaker there?

I wonder if this a a tap...

 

[MovingAlong]

I just wanted to know if putting in a 30amp breaker and wiring a RV plug would be okay.
Zim

Ummm, okay with whom?

You've got issues in that box - like a red wire terminating in your neutral bar...



Maybe it just needs phase tape, maybe it needs something else. But again, IMHO, you got issues bigger than a RV plug to address first.

 

[micromind]

You'll need to separate the neutral from the ground but otherwise, installing a 30 amp RV outlet is fine.

I would use the existing 30 amp single pole breaker for the RV and install a new 20 amp breaker for the 120 volt outlet. I would get rid of the outlet inside the panel and install a GFI in a Bellbox somewhere nearby.

 

[sparky 1971]

I can't believe nobody has called out the missing bushing on the feeder. You guys are getting a little too complacent.

As far as what I would do: The first thing to do is to address the no breaker to shut it off issue. Then, I'm not familiar with CH panels. but the knockouts on the top are telling me that it isn't a 3R panel so get a new outdoor panel and start over. Figure out which wires are the neutral and ground so that the ground can be isolated (don't forget to buy the ground bar, the manufacturers save 50¢ by not including it, then sell you one for $15), move the receptacle to outside using an offset ******, bell box, and in use cover and be done with it.

 

[PCustoms]

As far as what I would do: The first thing to do is to address the no breaker to shut it off issue.

Why?

This is no different then any typical main panel in a house or shop. You can shut the panel off, but to remove the feed you have to have the meter pulled.

OP should probably figure out where this is fed from, but saying the panel is somehow dangerous because there isn't an upstream breaker has me scratching my head

 

[micromind]

If there's more than one breaker to disconnect the entire service, code requires then to be grouped together.

Around here, the PUCO required a single service disconnect so the grouping requirement is moot.

 

[PCustoms]

If there's more than one breaker to disconnect the entire service, code requires then to be grouped together.

Got a citation?

And if so, when was that implemented?

 

[sparky 1971]

Why?

This is no different then any typical main panel in a house or shop. You can shut the panel off, but to remove the feed you have to have the meter pulled.

OP should probably figure out where this is fed from, but saying the panel is somehow dangerous because there isn't an upstream breaker has me scratching my head

Go back to post #1 and read the third sentence. It's not a main panel, it's a sub panel, or to be technically correct, a feeder panel. Since it's outside, it could be tapped off of a main somewhere, but that main should be able to shut it off. A meter shouldn't have to be pulled to kill a feeder.

 

[sparky 1971]

Got a citation?

And if so, when was that implemented?

230.72(A) It's also known as the six throw rule and it's been around longer than I have.

 

[PCustoms]

230.72(A) It's also known as the six throw rule and it's been around longer than I have.

How does that apply here?

One throw kills this panel

 

[sparky 1971]

How does that apply here?

One throw kills this panel

That throw needs to be able to kill the panel and the feeder conductors from close proximity to where the rest of the panels are killed. Everything on that service needs to be shut down from close to the same location. If that one throw is the main breaker for the rest of the service, that's fine but leads to the next question of how is this panel fed if there is no breaker for the feeder? If the conductors are stuck under the lugs of the main, it's double tapped which is more than likely a no no, and the main doesn't kill the feeder.

 

[PCustoms]

Go back to post #1 and read the third sentence. It's not a main panel, it's a sub panel, or to be technically correct, a feeder panel. Since it's outside, it could be tapped off of a main somewhere, but that main should be able to shut it off. A meter shouldn't have to be pulled to kill a feeder.

It's not clear if the OP knows where this is fed from. See my questions in post #18

 

[PCustoms]

That throw needs to be able to kill the panel from close proximity to where the rest of the panels are killed. Everything on that service needs to be shut down from close to the same location. If that one throw is the main breaker for the rest of the service, that's fine but leads to the next question of how is this panel fed if there is no breaker for the feeder? If the conductors are stuck under the lugs of the main, it's double tapped which is more than likely a no no, and the main doesn't kill the feeder.

I'm missing something....

I have a meter/main 100' away from my house. My house sub has a main breaker, and ~40 breakers. If I throw the main in the sub, it's dead (below the main).

OP has TBD feeding this panel, some distance away. He has a backed breaker marked as the main. If he flips that, the panel is dead (past that breaker).

Why/how is that different?

 

[PCustoms]

Also to add to this mess, anyone see where the ground rods are connected?

 

[sparky 1971]

It's not clear if the OP knows where this is fed from. See my questions in post #18

In post #1 he stated it's a sub panel and he can't seem to find a way to shut it off, the location of the meter has nothing to do with it. There's probably some kind of half assed tap going on and since it's an indoor panel mounted outside, the tap is more than likely wrong.

I'm missing something....

I have a meter/main 100' away from my house. My house sub has a main breaker, and ~40 breakers. If I throw the main in the sub, it's dead (below the main).

That's not a main in your sub, it's a disconnect and shutting it off doesn't shut off the feeder conductors. The real main in the meter/main shuts those off. Same as here, that breaker marked as a main isn't a main, it's a disconnect for the panel.

OP has TBD feeding this panel, some distance away. He has a backed breaker marked as the main. If he flips that, the panel is dead (past that breaker).

Why/how is that different?

because the feeder conductors don't get shut off when turning the breaker in the panel off. Everything has to have the ability to be shut off without running all around the property.

EDIT to attempt some clarity. Let's pretend your meter main is a 400 amp with two 200 amp breakers. Those two breakers each feed a 200 amp panel and each panel has a 200 amp "main" breaker used as a disconnect. They could beside by side in a house, opposite ends of a house, two different buildings, doesn't matter. Shutting off the breakers in the meter main kills everything supplied by the service including the feeders and those two breakers are grouped together and everything is shut off with two throws. Shutting off the breakers in the panels will shut off the panels and everything they feed, but the panels are still live because the feeder conductors are hot.
There is one place I work quite often that has six 200 amp 120/208 three phase panels scattered throughout the building, each fed from a 200 amp fused disconnect and those disconnects are grouped together on a wall about 15' wide. There is no one main that shuts everything off.

 

[PCustoms]

because the feeder conductors don't get shut off when turning the breaker in the panel off.

It's late, I was outside in the sun all day. I'll read again tomorrow and figure out what in overlooking, but I can't see how the 6 throws rule applies here

 

[sparky 1971]

Also to add to this mess, anyone see where the ground rods are connected?

There might not be a need for ground rods. It's outside where the garage used to be, could have been an inside panel for an attached garage on the common wall, then three walls were torn down leaving the panel outside but still on the house. IF that's the case, and the main panel is in or on the house, no ground rods would be needed. If it's detached, ground rods would be needed. Since the panel is fed from the back, the feeder is going through something, if it's not a wall, I'm clueless. I would think if it were a stand alone panel, it would be fed from underground right in the bottom of the panel.

 

[sparky 1971]

It's late, I was outside in the sun all day. I'll read again tomorrow and figure out what in overlooking, but I can't see how the 6 throws rule applies here

I have too. The six throw probably doesn't apply here because there probably aren't six throws, but the grouping of disconnects does. The feeder for this panel has to have the ability to be shut off from wherever the service disconnect is, which should more than likely be a breaker. Apparently you might have some idea of how it's fed, but without a sub panel breaker, I can only come up with non code compliant ideas like tapping off the line side of the main, double lugging off the load side of the meter, some kind of split bolt tap off the service entrance conductors. About the only thing I can think of that would be close to correct is a main panel with feed thru lugs, but that could lead to other things that probably aren't done right either.

 

[starquestMM]

I can't believe nobody has called out the missing bushing on the feeder.

Or that uv damaged extension cord just resting on a knock out. The 30a breaker is surely keeping it safe.

 

[mm08822]

What is there is weather-worn. Just replace it with this. If a main cb is needed, just add it as a backfed cb with hold down hardware.

No need to worry about all of the existing hack work. Just git rid of it all.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Those are very good panels cadmium plated copper buss.

The plating on a CH panel board's buss is genuine silver, not cadmium.
Cadmium plating of electrical and electronics is limited to Aeronautical and Military uses

 

[PCustoms]

@zimman

Any chance you can get a pic of the house panel with the cover off?

 

[Dagny]

they are silver now but not when that panel was made.