PelicanPines
ALLIANCE MEMBER
My nutts belong to knipex
Look out Knipex, here comes ICON!
- Thread starter javyLSU
- Start date
Sad thing is, Knipex 10" used to cost about $40-50 bucks... they erbody on the internet started circle jer..... supply and demand'm
Also notable, look at the tooth definition on the Icon vs Knipex, 10yrs old and the Knipex teeth looked perfect still.
Also notable, look at the tooth definition on the Icon vs Knipex, 10yrs old and the Knipex teeth looked perfect still.
General Geoff
Well-known member
Well, the Icon PW passed my first function test: the double folded penny. lol
That's not going to happen.
I've never been drunk or stoned enough to pay $70 bucks for a pair of pliers.
I've to be drunk AND stoned to pay $20 for "Copied by ICON"
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Just FYI, IP law is an interesting animal. E.g. trademark and copyright are two different things. When copyright expires you can make copies. Exact copies even. All the copyright protection disappears upon expiration.
Trademark infringement is more like assuming another company’s identity. The thing that’s protected is the company’s reputation. Evidence that a competitor is trying to confuse customers or benefit from adopting a trademark, or that they might harm the trademark by adopting it, is what’s needed to make out a claim.
I don’t know whether Knipex can make out a claim to trademark-style protection over the shape of the pliers wrench. Analysis like that is subtle. They have to establish that the pattern is both unique and distinctive enough that customers associate it with them - but working against that is the fact that other companies are allowed to make pliers wrenches and they all look similar by necessity. Being chromed or having red handles probably isn’t something you can protect either.
I don’t think there’s any copyright infringement going on. Some other type of claim, especially one sufficient to convince Harbor Freight to offer a settlement… maybe.
Trademark infringement is more like assuming another company’s identity. The thing that’s protected is the company’s reputation. Evidence that a competitor is trying to confuse customers or benefit from adopting a trademark, or that they might harm the trademark by adopting it, is what’s needed to make out a claim.
I don’t know whether Knipex can make out a claim to trademark-style protection over the shape of the pliers wrench. Analysis like that is subtle. They have to establish that the pattern is both unique and distinctive enough that customers associate it with them - but working against that is the fact that other companies are allowed to make pliers wrenches and they all look similar by necessity. Being chromed or having red handles probably isn’t something you can protect either.
I don’t think there’s any copyright infringement going on. Some other type of claim, especially one sufficient to convince Harbor Freight to offer a settlement… maybe.
WordMan
ALLIANCE MEMBER
A pair of actual Knipex pliers with the Snap On name isn't a patent violation.
I don't complain about off-shoring, at least in the way it's popular here on GJ. Anyone running around waving flags and screaming about bacon and eagles that also ever darkens the door of a Walmart is inherently a hypocrite, and it's funny how many people like that pick and choose what they get riled up about - they'll scream while sitting on their couch made overseas in clothes made overseas, etc. When that stuff is pointed out, the answer is, invariably, "Well I can't afford the [couches/clothes/whatever] made here." The votes with their dollars don't match the rhetoric, and a ton of the offshoring people complain about happens for exactly that reason. In Japan, the preference for domestic products is so strong that the far-cheaper equivalents available just don't do well overall. That's true for both big ticket items (e.g cars, electronics, tech) and smaller things like tools. It's similar in other places like Germany and France (French car makers have been absolutely awful, but they still sell). As a whole, the US isn't like that.Come on dude. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that HF copied the Knipex tool down to every last fine detail. The Geodore tool while similar, is quite a bit different and really would not be visually mistaken for an actual Knipex tool - especially when side by side with another. Like I said before, Chrysler successfully sued Mahindra over the Roxor, and the Roxor looks a lot less like a modern Jeep, than that Icon tool does the Knipex original.
It amazes me how often people complain about high-end western businesses shutting down/off-shoring production, but have no problem with egregious trademark infringement and bumming of other people's work.
There also also times when domestic makers don't deserve the money IMHO. For example, US-made cars have an incredibly spotty record over time for quality and reliability. As one of the bigger outlays, I'm not giving my money to any manufacturer/maker that doesn't give me value for my money.
As a consumer, I pick my battles. I buy the best product I reasonably can. There are spots where I'll pay extra for an equivalent-or-better MiUSA product, and where that option doesn't exist I'm buying the right combination of quality and value. That has put a mixture of tools in my garage: I have Icon, Quinn, Carlyle, Sunex, Carpri and Tekton (brands made in Asia), but I also have Hazet, Knipex, Wiha, SK and Snap On (brands made in the West). But what I don't have is crappy tools.
As far as "egregious trademark infringement" and "bumming off other people's work", what's happening is literally the purposeful design of the patent/intellectual property system. You're trying to make it sound like they're doing something against the law and/or unethical and it is neither. You might not like it, and that's fine. I don't have any problem with your opinion (even though I mostly disagree with it, though I see where you're coming from), I have a problem with you trying to make it sound like they're getting away with something. They're not. They're literally doing what the system is designed to enable them to do. It's designed that way to deliver technology to the market at lower prices once the inventor has had their run. Effectively zero people are going to buy that product thinking it is Knipex-made product. FWIW, I also agree that the "Designed by Icon Tools" is ridiculous - somebody has been looking at Apple packaging and thought it was cool. They should get rid of it.
As for me, here's how I voted with my dollars:
I do have the Doyle "cobras" in my travel set, and as I've said I'll probably grab a pair of the Icons for the same purpose for the reasons I stated above (good tools that hurt less if they don't come home). If I were buying in an environment where there were Icon equivalents for all of these, my drawer would look the same.
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That's extremely unlikely IMHO. Very likely the Snap On suit amounted to zero outlay on the part of HF beyond agreeing not to pursue legal costs. I say that because literally nothing changed on the part of HF, the terms were undisclosed and everything I've read says SO declined comment after the fact.I don’t think there’s any copyright infringement going on. Some other type of claim, especially one sufficient to convince Harbor Freight to offer a settlement… maybe.
I'd be very surprised if a suit is even filed.
Yep, that would make sense too. I'm not suggesting the supposed infringement is such that Knipex will take the gloves off and prep for a genuine court battle. It also wouldn't surprise me if they threatened to and either a) got some token compensation for agreeing to drop the suit or b) got some mild concessions about the product design to differentiate it from Knipex (e.g. maybe the handle color changes or they lose the diamond relief for future production, etc).
dr_clyde
Well-known member
The difference is they purchase Knipex tools and brand them, not knock them off and claim they’re original designs.
Mine were $45 for the 250mm pair on Stacey's husband's website. Not much price difference from 39.99That's not going to happen.
I've never been drunk or stoned enough to pay $70 bucks for a pair of pliers.
jsmeece
Well-known member
Nowhere on Icon page do they mention "original design"
I was thinking about it more. It occurs to me a lawsuit is probably even less likely considering it's a copy of Knipex's old design. Does Knipex still sell that version? Assuming they don't, then Harbor Freight could argue customers can't be confused by a design Knipex doesn't sell anymore.
gjusername
Well-known member
I just looked at my invoice from when I bought my first knipex products on amazon.de .... I paid <20 euros for each pair of cobras (a 6" and a 10" long nose) and 29 euros for a 6" pliers wrench. IDK exactly how much they each came out to in USD, but it was less than $40.
I agree with the guy who said that HF should've came out with a much cheaper, but lower quality, version of the pliers wrench rather than making one in their icon line and asking $40 for it.
I agree with the guy who said that HF should've came out with a much cheaper, but lower quality, version of the pliers wrench rather than making one in their icon line and asking $40 for it.
Are FujiyaTw.com.tw and fujiya-kk.com related in any way?Thank goodness there isn't a 20% coupon right now. If you guys need instant gratification though, these are still going for $23. I have been using these along with my 2 other Knipexs. Actually appreciate the bigger button when wearing gloves. The Knipexs aren't worth 2x the price either unless you really need red to match your Knipex collection.
Rebranded Fujiyas, made in Taiwan.
This is probably my 5th post about these, but want to spread the word especially for those new or considering pliers wrenches.
The japanese site has the pliers you are showing. The Taiwanese site has some really questionable images of knipex cobra copies stamped "made in german" with badly photoshopped edits. The versions of the cobras show on the taiwanese website uses a phillips screw on the adjustment button.
They say: "Designed by ICON"
I think that is called lying?
jsmeece
Well-known member
Where on this page does it say "designed by icon" I don't see it?
10 in. Pliers Wrench
Amazing deals on this 10In Pliers Wrench at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.
www.harborfreight.com
jsmeece
Well-known member
Nevermind found it on the actual package the pliers come in, but still nothing on the webpage.Where on this page does it say "designed by icon" I don't see it?
10 in. Pliers Wrench
Amazing deals on this 10In Pliers Wrench at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.
Here you go:
"Designed by ICON tools
in the USA"
Pants on fire!
"Designed by KNIPEX tools
in Germany"
I wasn't specifically referring to the Knipex as I am well aware they still bare some Knipex branding on them. What I am getting at is people give the large names the benefit of doubt that when they have a copy of a tool it was either made by the OE or it is made as part of an agreement. When it is HF it is shameless copying and thus ripping off the OE. We don't know the story behind it and it is very possible that HF has a licensing agreement with Knipex. It is possible Icon got the green light from Knipex to make an Icon branded copy as long as it bares no Knipex branding and below OEM price to prevent warranty and quality confusion with the original. All I am saying is put away the pitch forks until we hear there is a dispute directly from Knipex because if there is not then it's safe to assume there is an agreement in place or the patent is now in public domain and HF has done nothing wrong.
Remember, as a consumer, competition and options are a good thing. Maybe with some solid competition we see the price come down on our beloved Knipex (I currently have around 23+ pairs).
Yes, I know it is blue-point but just points to the big companies do it too and nowhere on the site to they point to Lang being the OE. Also, they are listing for $30 over the OE in this case. Other examples are snap-on's socket trays, no doubt in my mind that they are the hanson design, and their twist lock rails and trays are ernst socket boss design. No credit given to the OEs on either of these items but we just assume snap-on is having the OEs make them for them but if HF does it people will assume it is a copy without any credit to the OE.
Remember, as a consumer, competition and options are a good thing. Maybe with some solid competition we see the price come down on our beloved Knipex (I currently have around 23+ pairs).
Yes, I know it is blue-point but just points to the big companies do it too and nowhere on the site to they point to Lang being the OE. Also, they are listing for $30 over the OE in this case. Other examples are snap-on's socket trays, no doubt in my mind that they are the hanson design, and their twist lock rails and trays are ernst socket boss design. No credit given to the OEs on either of these items but we just assume snap-on is having the OEs make them for them but if HF does it people will assume it is a copy without any credit to the OE.
four.cycle
Well-known member
vssjim said:
That would be one Mr. Homer Foot (at least in the United States):
Foot / Homer Foot & Co., Springfield, MA / patent 7254X Oct 25 1832 Henry King & 8153X Apr 18 1834 S. Merrick & 5707 Aug 15 1848 S. Merrick / (7254X "Considered the first U.S. adjustable wrench patent" datamp.org) /
If you're talking about the "Crescent" type adjustable wrench, that would be one Mr. Johan Petter Johanssen - patent SE 4066 (see attached.)
qqzz said:
“Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness.”- Oscar Wilde
M635_Guy said:
Spot on and well said, sir.
I'm finding all of the outrage being expressed in this thread kind of entertaining, myself. I have to wonder how many of these guys screaming have American-made television sets, vacuum cleaners, or refrigerators in their homes?
As far as "lawsuits", it's pretty clear that there's little understanding here of how patents work. There are utility patents, and there are design patents (in the U.S.) Other countries' patent laws vary somewhat.
In any case, once the patent has expired, unless it is reissued, anybody can make that product.
That's why you're able to select a generic drug when your doctor writes you a prescription once the patent on that drug has expired.
That's why you can buy any number of generic broad-spectrum herbicides containing glyphosate, a product that was formerly only available if you bought it in a bottle labeled "Round-Up".
Harbor Freight hasn't done anything illegal. If Knipex doesn't have a design patent or a utility patent on that device which is still in effect, then it's fair game, just as it has been with adjustable "Crescent" type wrenches for over a century.
I don't have a dog in this fight. Check one of the most recent "Pliers" threads - I already own more pliers than I'll ever be able to use, and almost all of them are U.S. made.
I only bought the Icon set so my buddy can try them out and I can get some feedback from somebody who works on more than one vehicle. As I said, after he puts them to the test, I'll let you know what he thinks.
Attachments
I’m surprised at the amount of “shock” in here… This is standard operating procedure for good old Harbor Freight. In the case of the flush cut pliers, they even went as far as copying the cap that Snap-on ships the pliers with:
theres probly not many people that were shocked. if you dont have the capacity to design stuff yourself ,copying is your only next step.
alot of us were probly unaware of whats going on as we could count on one hand the amount of times we've been in HF in a lfetime.
shocked and suprised ,likely none of us are . unaware ,probly alot of us were
dr_clyde
Well-known member
There is a massive difference between licensed rebadging and a copy intended to deceive.I wasn't specifically referring to the Knipex as I am well aware they still bare some Knipex branding on them. What I am getting at is people give the large names the benefit of doubt that when they have a copy of a tool it was either made by the OE or it is made as part of an agreement. When it is HF it is shameless copying and thus ripping off the OE. We don't know the story behind it and it is very possible that HF has a licensing agreement with Knipex. It is possible Icon got the green light from Knipex to make an Icon branded copy as long as it bares no Knipex branding and below OEM price to prevent warranty and quality confusion with the original. All I am saying is put away the pitch forks until we hear there is a dispute directly from Knipex because if there is not then it's safe to assume there is an agreement in place or the patent is now in public domain and HF has done nothing wrong.
Remember, as a consumer, competition and options are a good thing. Maybe with some solid competition we see the price come down on our beloved Knipex (I currently have around 23+ pairs).
Yes, I know it is blue-point but just points to the big companies do it too and nowhere on the site to they point to Lang being the OE. Also, they are listing for $30 over the OE in this case. Other examples are snap-on's socket trays, no doubt in my mind that they are the hanson design, and their twist lock rails and trays are ernst socket boss design. No credit given to the OEs on either of these items but we just assume snap-on is having the OEs make them for them but if HF does it people will assume it is a copy without any credit to the OE.
I don’t think anyone would be bothered by a tool with similar design and function by HF. The tool’s function isn’t what is at stake here. What rubs a lot of guys, myself included, is how blatant and exact HF copied the knipex, right down to the flourishes and aesthetics of the knipex. They copied things that are designed to fool an unsuspecting or ignorant buyer into thinking they bought something “identical” to the name brand.
If SO or Matco or whoever rebadge a tool, they do it with permission, and it isn’t a copy. It IS the actual OEM tool with a different label. HF manufactures their own, without permission, designed to mimic the OE as close as possible, and with intent to deceive. That’s the issue.
CHI_Tool&Die
Well-known member
So the thing is that Knipex is around in Lowes, HD, and Menards here in Chicago. If you have the right app or if it’s Menards and they run the rebate, you can get Knipex stuff on sale. So I guess the only thing HF has going for it is the hassle-free warranty, but then again we also don’t have a ton of HF stores around like the others. I dunno, I think this will probably go quick for all the techs around that shop HF more than anyone else.
We know Knipex didn’t make the Icon pliers because the Icons say “Made in Taiwan” and “designed by Icon” while the Knipex are made in Germany. Not even close to the same thing as Snap On or whoever paying a company to make tools for them.I wasn't specifically referring to the Knipex as I am well aware they still bare some Knipex branding on them. What I am getting at is people give the large names the benefit of doubt that when they have a copy of a tool it was either made by the OE or it is made as part of an agreement. When it is HF it is shameless copying and thus ripping off the OE. We don't know the story behind it and it is very possible that HF has a licensing agreement with Knipex. It is possible Icon got the green light from Knipex to make an Icon branded copy as long as it bares no Knipex branding and below OEM price to prevent warranty and quality confusion with the original. All I am saying is put away the pitch forks until we hear there is a dispute directly from Knipex because if there is not then it's safe to assume there is an agreement in place or the patent is now in public domain and HF has done nothing wrong.
Remember, as a consumer, competition and options are a good thing. Maybe with some solid competition we see the price come down on our beloved Knipex (I currently have around 23+ pairs).
Yes, I know it is blue-point but just points to the big companies do it too and nowhere on the site to they point to Lang being the OE. Also, they are listing for $30 over the OE in this case. Other examples are snap-on's socket trays, no doubt in my mind that they are the hanson design, and their twist lock rails and trays are ernst socket boss design. No credit given to the OEs on either of these items but we just assume snap-on is having the OEs make them for them but if HF does it people will assume it is a copy without any credit to the OE.
As an example outside the tool world, John Deere will not allow any company to use a green tractor with yellow wheels for any purpose, even images. They own that look and design.
I like HF but think that in the long term the exact copy approach to design is going to bite them. HF might want or need to become a chain that also resells established brands and supplies. This could really drive customers into the stores. Companies might be wary of dealing with HF due to the practice of copies and not just competition. They might feel it hurts their brand to be sold at HF.
Never said they did. What I have said repeatedly are that one of two things COULD be in play. Either the patent is expired and the design is fair game or they have an agreement with Knipex to use the design. There is a lot of assumption that they are breaking the law and infringing on Knipex design without all the information. This could still be true but just as good a chance its the other two options. Hell for all we know Knipex could have said yea you can use our design but not our factories because we don't want our brand associated with harbor freight.
There are TONS of examples of this in the tool world, just look at all the vice grip clones out there. It happens and is part of the life cycle of tools. Something new and innovative will come along and get patented and the owner of the patent will enjoy those benefits for a while. Then the patent expires and you start seeing clones. Every last tool company will do this it is a guarantee. Some will tweek the design to make it their own or improve on it and others will make carbon copies and then others will make cheap knock offs.
four.cycle
Well-known member
JDSupra said:
Sorry. This document is not available.
www.jdsupra.com
Again, if Knipex does not currently have an active patent on the item, anybody can make the item. Full stop.
I have no doubt that the people at Knipex know all about the latest "Icon" offering, and if there was something they could do about it legally, we'd probably have heard about it by now.
Meanwhile....
Lardy1 said:
Attachments
WordMan
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Competition, is not using someone else's R&D dollars without their permission, then selling cheaper because they didn't have that outlay.
Again you are jumping to the conclusion that 1. Knipex still has an active patent and 2. Icon does not have an agreement with Knipex. The purpose of the patent is to protect the R&D investment but like @four.cycle pointed out they expire and then the design is fair game. A successful product will be one that recoups the R&D plus profit long before a patent expires because other companies can always come out with products that take the market share without infringing on the patent.
Per Knipex's website the pliers wrench came out in 1994 so the original patent is likely expired and now public domain.
dr_clyde
Well-known member
One, it's not a patent issue. There are lots of other companies that make a similar tool. None of them use the EXACT same shape, colors, chrome, cutouts, etc. They straight up stole the design. Not just the mechanism, not just the concept, everything. They are basically identical. HF is attempting to capitalize on the iconic look and reputation Knipex earned by basically photocopying the tool. HF is legally in the clear patent wise, but it is a scummy thing to do, and it reeks of no morals and straight up bad business.
Now, trademarks are different than patents, and it could be argued that Knipex has a trademark violation case. Much like the Coca-Cola font, the Apple logo, or the shape of Mickey Mouse's head, companies have legal rights to things that seem simple but are the core of their brand identity. The specific shapes of the jaws and cutouts, the silver matte chrome with that specific color red grips, the overall size and shape of the tool make Knipex tools easily identified and unique from other tools, kinda like Channellock's blue grips or DeWalt's yellow and black color scheme. By copying THAT essence, HF has stolen IP from Knipex. Has nothing to do with the patent for the tool.
Two, there is no way in hell Knipex would license their IP to a shithole company like HF. Truck brands, yes, they've done that. But the bottom of the barrel? The **** that is left behind for free at the garage sale? No. Knipex has a valuable market identity and share. They would actively damage their brand and reputation by allowing HF to use their IP.
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
Perpetual monopoly is the opposite of competition.
WordMan
ALLIANCE MEMBER
There is no perpetual monopoly. Make something that does the same job and bingo, you can compete.
That the patent may have run out (though its being updated may keep it in force), and HF then went on to produce their version using the no longer patented mechanism is not a problem.
But the ability to sell one's ideas without the fear of someone producing your design for less because they have little to no R&D is what drives innovation.
CN Spots
Well-known member
At least HF modified the handle to omit "patented".
Actually, it is. It's exactly the reason why patents expire. It's done on purpose.