Look out Knipex, here comes ICON!
- Thread starter javyLSU
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PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
So do you feel the same way about every other tool company that puts their name on stuff they don’t make themselves, or is your revulsion strictly directed at HF?
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
Maybe HF's real innovation is starting a successful retail empire in the Amazon age. This might be more important for general prosperity than the shape of a tool's handle.
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
I've seen old time advertising comparing a company's pipe wrench to the original Stillson. Weird that pipe wrenches still look pretty much the same.Sure, let's hear it for the Chevy "Pint", a small ****** car the looks just like the Ford Pinto. I'm sure it'll sell great
Everyone enjoys the discount on generic drugs after a certain amount of time for the patent to expire. Maybe people can think of HF as generic drugs for tools. When allergy season kicks in I take "Benadry".............. wait you know what I've never actually taken "Benadry", but I've taken plenty of Diphenhydramine HCl. The generic pills even say compare to "Benadry". Similarly HF tools usually says compare to xyz.
Ton ton
Well-known member
Click bait- gotcha.
HF has been around since the mid 80s, or earlier; way before the internet and much before Amazon. I still have my HF receipts from 1985-87. And I am not an HF hater, but their copying has really gotten insane. Everyone can make a socket or wrench, not much to copy there, but when you 99.9% copy a SO or Knipex plier, that's really pushing it. And they can do it, fine, no patents, but... I'd love for them to have even 1% of the innovation that Tekton does. Yeah, I know....
scooby074
Well-known member
Its like theyre not even trying to differentiate themselves from Knipex, just a blatant copy. Thats whats got most people upset. Im sure the HF will function just as well as the Knipex but thats not the issue.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
I don't care either way. I have a Knipex 10" pliers wrench and haven't found a use for it yet, that may change someday when I actually remember it's on my truck when I need something. I understand the HF looks almost like a carbon copy of Knipex. All sockets look pretty much the same to me. What about ratchets? In the long run, there are two types: round head and pear head, with little differences between brands. It's the same with screwdrivers. Sure the handles are different, but look at Klein rubber grips, Ideal, Greenlee, Stanley, Craftsman and who knows how many other company's sell basically the same thing. I don't have any "hard handle" screwdrivers, but to me, they all appear to be basically the same. Cushion grip? There is more than a few similarities between them to. Pliers? How many brands of linesman pliers are there that look the same? Slip joint, tongue and groove, long nose, bent nose etc, etc, etc.
The point is, every one of the tools I listed above was invented by someone and copied by all the others. I agree that HF's copying is blatant, but somewhere, someone is going to do it anyway and in the long run, it's all about the almighty dollar.
The point is, every one of the tools I listed above was invented by someone and copied by all the others. I agree that HF's copying is blatant, but somewhere, someone is going to do it anyway and in the long run, it's all about the almighty dollar.
General Geoff
Well-known member
I set a reminder for March 2032 to come back and compare the Icon's performance over a decade of use vs the Knipex
Handyandy23
Well-known member
I only see the 10" on the HF website, wondering if they'll be coming out with the 7" and 12" sizes later on?
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Why not? All these Harbor Freight threads eventually turn into d*ck measuring contests.
Iridium rand
Well-known member
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Tbf a rebrand (which I imagine is licensed or tool was originally intended to be sold to many retailers) is at least supporting the OEM, where this is blatantly taking anothers design and manufacturing it for yourself. Perfect example being the mac rebrands that actually still say knipex on them but with a mac logo also added.
And rebrands do have their fair share of disdain around here but really it’s just the name of the game nowadays and likewise with sending your own designs to have another company manufacture them, it’s a mutually beneficial relationship not a parasitic one like knockoffs
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
When I described HF as a retail empire I wasn't thinking of what they were even 20 years ago. Maybe the strategy of cloning of successful tools can be considered an innovation, even if some might consider it a distasteful innovation.
CHI_Tool&Die
Well-known member
They know because not too long ago they had a somewhat cryptic post about originality being rare. It took me a minute to realize it was not too long after this Icon release was put into the public sphere.
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
I don't assume anything from HF will function well, or poorly, for that matter. They have some real winners, but I don't know without using the tool or at least reading a review.
It's like Pat Boone. Pat Boone started his career covering other artist's songs. HF's Knipex pliers might be their Tutti Frutti.
ace10
Well-known member
The original artist or the owner of the rights to the original song are owed royalties.
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
Yeah, and if the patent for the Knipex pliers was still in effect, HF would have to pay -- even if it was a hilariously bad knock-off.
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Explain the legal rationale for your statement.
"To counterfeit means to imitate something authentic, with the intent to steal, destroy, or replace the original, ... or otherwise to deceive individuals into believing that the fake is of equal or greater value than the real thing.Explain the legal rationale for your statement.
Counterfeit products are fakes or unauthorized replicas of the real product. Counterfeit products are often produced with the intent to take advantage of the superior value of the imitated product."
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Only if Knipex was willing to prosecute the patent, spend millions on litigation, win in court, secure a monetary judgement, survive the inevitable appeal and actually collect any damages awarded- in the country where the violation occured. In this case we'd have a German company suing a Taiwanese manufacturer and an American distributor. We're talking years before they could see a single pfenning from millions of dollars spent on litigation here in the US,
It's the way things work in the real world. Most claims are settled outside of trial because companies realize prior art is an easier sell to a jury than the subtle uniqueness of the patent itself. (All hammers, wrenches, screwdrivers, etc look pretty much alike to juror 6 who hangs pictures with a high heeled shoe and juror 9 who doesn't know the difference between an eyebolt and and an I-beam)
Patent defense is prohibitively expensive for the average company. I've been involved in three multi-million dollar patent infringement cases; (on both sides of the aisle) we ended up settling all of them out of court.
If Knipex thought HF was cutting into their sales they would weigh the risks and rewards and initiate the legal steps to redress their grievances. They do patent a lot of their product line, but if they aren't willing to defend them the patents are meaningless.
Here's a little light reading if anyone's interested:
Patents Assigned to Knipex-Werk C. Gustav Putsch KG - Justia Patents Search
Justia - Patents - Patents and Patent Application Resources
patents.justia.com
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PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
That's a generic dictionary defintion, not the legal rationale in this specific case.
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
You're right, there's a grey zone where a company can take advantage of friction in the system. But, if the original patents are still active in this case, I've missed it.
I'm not particularly concerned about the appearance aspects of the tool. Actual use is what counts to me.
seber
Well-known member
This is the Irwin version. $23. Not the same quality, but it works every bit as well and you can literally buy three of them for the price of one Knipex.
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PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Why, those sleazy counterfeiting bastards... cue the GJ outrage in 3...2...1...
This is the Irwin version. $23. Not the same quality, but it works every bit as well and you can literally buy three of them for the price of on Knipex.
Another ongoing reminder of what Vise-Grip used to stand for....but at least this copy earns some originality points unlike some copycats.
This is the Irwin version. $23. Not the same quality, but it works every bit as well and you can literally buy three of them for the price of on Knipex.
Stopped at HF today at lunch and got my hands on a pair. Not impressed. The castings are pretty bad, and the finishing was also not impressive. I walked in with the intent of buying a pair, but the price delta versus the Knipex isn’t enough to get my business. I’d be a buyer at $25, but can’t give $40 for these.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
I don't know exactly how extensive this list is, but it's a pretty darned long list of tool patents, every one of which has been copied in one way or another. I stumbled across it because I thought SK had the patent for the round head ratchet and I was right. Shame on everyone else for making a version of their own.
Meursault74
Well-known member
jeez, what a let down by the OP that started this thread
What I say is let's wait this all out, hope HF reads this thread and lowers the price. Then let's all wait some more for a coupon and/or weekend sale to get it for even less. Let's see who can get it for the least amount
If it's 19th and 20th century patents, they're all expired and in the public domain.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
OK. Do you suppose that maybe the second every one of those patents expired, someone was making a clone to sell for themselves? This is nothing new.
nbpt100
Well-known member
I am far from a patent attorney but aren't patents only enforceable in the country the patent was filed? Did KNipex file patents in every country in the tool buying world? Just asking.
I would not run out and buy this HF tool yet. The $ delta is not enough as a few have said. Let's see how good the steel holds up and how well it ratchets on a wide range of nuts and bolts. I have an 8" Knipex and do not regret paying something like $50 for it @ JB Tool. Not only is it a nice adjustable wrench but it is great for bending sheet metal. The cheap adj. pipe wrenches with smooth jaws, like the Ridgid and others do not have the same mechanism that gives as much mechanical advantage.. Some do not even keep the jaws parallel in all positions. As many have said here before. If it is a pliers, Knipex is the go to for the best.
I would not run out and buy this HF tool yet. The $ delta is not enough as a few have said. Let's see how good the steel holds up and how well it ratchets on a wide range of nuts and bolts. I have an 8" Knipex and do not regret paying something like $50 for it @ JB Tool. Not only is it a nice adjustable wrench but it is great for bending sheet metal. The cheap adj. pipe wrenches with smooth jaws, like the Ridgid and others do not have the same mechanism that gives as much mechanical advantage.. Some do not even keep the jaws parallel in all positions. As many have said here before. If it is a pliers, Knipex is the go to for the best.
It isn't anything new
, nor is it wrong. The patent system is designed to enable exactly this kind of thing to happen, and pretty much everyone has examples of it in their house.My understanding is there's some reciprocity, and some countries have their own system. In this case, Knipex has filed it in the US. It doesn't really matter where it's made, so if there was an infringement, they'd have the ability to act on it in US courts.
(As I've said, I'm definitely not a patent attorney, but have a couple patents and have been locked in rooms with IP attorneys for many, many hours over the years in various jobs)
I did go out and get it, and compared it to my Knipex pairs. My 10" Knipex is the newer version, though my 7"/5" are probably from the last batches of the original design. Pix of what I'd guess are much older castings of the original Knipex models are much closer to the Icon casting, though I'd guess they don't have the "simplifications" of the Icon I noted in my writeup (that I'm guessing were done to save steps/cost).
sparky 1971
Well-known member
I think you missed the context of my above post. That's exactly the point I was trying to convey, but for some reason, my tone didn't make it. It seems every second or third poster on this thread is disgusted with Harbor Freight for doing the same thing that Channellock, Wright, Bonney, Snap On, Mac, Matco, and every other tool manufacturer in the world has done. I guess since it's HF, it's an evil thing.It isn't anything new
nbpt100
Well-known member
Ask yourself what is the general populations view of of HF? It can take a lot of good work and a long time to change a reputation. It works in both directions too. Look at Craftsman.
sparky 1971
Well-known member
I have no idea what the G.P.'s view of HF is, but, based solely on the fact that there are over 1200 HF stores in the United States, it must be pretty high. I am going to take a guess here and say that 75% of the members of this forum have purchased something from HF, so I guess I am missing the point you are trying to make. Are you pro HF and think the pliers wrench clone is a good thing. Are you anti HF and think that the owner is the scourge of the earth for following his business model? Or are you like me and don't really care? I have a Knipex pliers wrench, I've never used it in the two or three years I've owned it. I'm not running down to HF to buy one, but if I didn't already own the better version, might be tempted to do just that.
nbpt100
Well-known member
My point is that the general public's view of HF is that is it inexpensive homeowner quality Chinese tools. The people here at the GJ are tool hobbyist to pros. They know what is out there and for the most part they know HF as cheap tools but trying to change thier image by improving quality and options. More stores, no BS warrantees, more brands and quality levels. It is going to take time for the image to change. I see that they are making changes for the better. They have better options now than they did 5 years ago. However alot of people still have a very negative view of HF from 30 or more years of seeing what they sold. That is why you are seeing a lot of cynicism towards HF on this tool. The flip of that is Craftsman. For decades they made very good USA made tools. That started to change about 25 years ago and the quality declined. But still for years people thought highly of them and some still do.
I try to keep an open mind with HF. Most of thier stuff I won't touch. You need to use judgement on each item. You can not blindly trust every brand in their store to have good quality or be good value. I would consider this wrench in question after some people use it for a while and give good feedback. However, I really like the few Knipex tools I own. I use them. To directly answer your question, I am skeptical of HF quality but I know they are changing for the better. I try to keep an open mind. Change is the only constant.