Looking at my options for a replacement electrical panel.

[Don1357]

I need to move my electrical panel about 12 feet... a perfectly legal DIY task in Alaska, no permits needed. I figure the easiest, safest way would be to buy a replacement panel so I can leisurely wire it to my heart's content. Panel goes in, breakers installed, wires installed on breakers, run through the raceway and into the splice box, where they just wait for when I'm ready to do the cutover. At that point once I transfer the main 100 amp power I can slowly migrate circuits over with no rush. This will substantially raise the cost of my DIY but it would still be waaaaay less than what an electrician would charge me. Plus I like doing this sort of stuff.

Currently I have a Siemens, neutral wire going into the neutral bar. I'm wondering if there is value in upgrading to a better standard, such as the Square D QO breaker, with plug-on neutral. Does the price justify the cost? I mean if I was an electrician the time savings would make it a no-brainer but as a lowly homeowner with time to spare, do I gain any functionally over the cheap magnetic breakers at half the cost? I already have GFCI outlets in the kitchen and bathroom.

 

[sparky 1971]

I use Square D because it's easiest for me to get but there is nothing wrong with a Siemens panel as long as it has a copper bus. And Siemens also has a type of plug on neutral but I have no experience with it.

 

[dave*99]

Plug on neutral simplifies installation of AFCI, GFCI and AFCI/GFCI combo breakers. Current codes call for many of those. If you are quite certain you won't ever install them, it does not add any functionality for you.
Square D Homeline panels are priced lower than QO. Many folks are satisfied with them. I have 3 in my house all with plug on neutral.
You will often find a panel packaged with a half dozen breakers at a reasonable package price.
YMMV

 

[Norcal]

The major downside of SQ D Homeline is having aluminum bus, but they with QO, Siemens, Eaton CH, are good choices, Eaton BR, & GE/ABB, panels are not good choices

 

[PCustoms]

The major downside of SQ D Homeline is having aluminum bus, but they with QO, Siemens, Eaton CH, are good choices, Eaton BR, & GE/ABB, panels are not good choices

I love when people write this.

What exactly is the issue with an aluminum buss? Is not tested l/certed to the rated amperage?

 

[sparky 1971]

I love when people write this.

What exactly is the issue with an aluminum buss? Is not tested l/certed to the rated amperage?

I've never seen a burned up copper buss. On the other hand, I've probably dealt with at least 100 burned aluminum buss bars, or at least a space or four. The Homelines have enough tin on them that I don't think there will be an issue, I put a 200 amp Homeline in the house and a 100 in the garage. The old house main panel, which is now a sub, is a 100 amp copper buss Siemens.

 

[Cruzan80]

I've never seen a burned up copper buss. On the other hand, I've probably dealt with at least 100 burned aluminum buss bars, or at least a space or four. The Homelines have enough tin on them that I don't think there will be an issue, I put a 200 amp Homeline in the house and a 100 in the garage. The old house main panel, which is now a sub, is a 100 amp copper buss Siemens.

100 burned Alu bus bars doesn't tell us enough. 100 out of how many puts it into context. 100 out of 200 is half, but out of a thousand is 10%. And it scales up from there.

 

[sparky 1971]

100 burned Alu bus bars doesn't tell us enough. 100 out of how many puts it into context. 100 out of 200 is half, but out of a thousand is 10%. And it scales up from there.

Then you tell us all about the advantages of aluminum buss panels. I have no clue as to how many aluminum panels are out there nor do I know or care about the ratio of copper vs. aluminum, I also couldn't tell anyone how many service calls I've been on in 30+ years of being an electrician. But, I can say, and already have once, I have never, ever, not once, seen a burned copper buss. What I have seen is a shitload of burned aluminum panels.

And, the OP is looking for suggestions on what to replace the existing panel with. What do you suggest?

 

[Cruzan80]

Not saying that Alu is superior. But 30+ years of service calls (even at one Alu panel a week) is 1500 panels and supposedly 100 bad ones. So a failure rate of under 7% by those numbers (and I am intentionally trying to estimate low for # of panels seen). This is where the context of how many good/bad comes in. This isn't counting age/brand/etc. Based on this, by the numbers, you saw 1500 good copper panels, and 1400 good Alu panels. Again, rough assumption of 1 panel per type, per week, 50wk/yr, 30yrs. Sounds a bit different when it is phrased like that.

That was all I was trying to bring up. Context and scale matters.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Then you tell us all about the advantages of aluminum buss panels. I have no clue as to how many aluminum panels are out there nor do I know or care about the ratio of copper vs. aluminum, I also couldn't tell anyone how many service calls I've been on in 30+ years of being an electrician. But, I can say, and already have once, I have never, ever, not once, seen a burned copper buss. What I have seen is a shitload of burned aluminum panels.

And, the OP is looking for suggestions on what to replace the existing panel with. What do you suggest?

same here. never seen one burned copper bus. seen my fair share of burned aluminum busses...

 

[Wiz02]

Not saying that Alu is superior. But 30+ years of service calls (even at one Alu panel a week) is 1500 panels and supposedly 100 bad ones. So a failure rate of under 7% by those numbers (and I am intentionally trying to estimate low for # of panels seen). This is where the context of how many good/bad comes in. This isn't counting age/brand/etc. Based on this, by the numbers, you saw 1500 good copper panels, and 1400 good Alu panels. Again, rough assumption of 1 panel per type, per week, 50wk/yr, 30yrs. Sounds a bit different when it is phrased like that.

That was all I was trying to bring up. Context and scale matters.

While I understand and appreciate the statistical concepts that you are sharing, if there are similarly priced options that avoid an issue experienced by pros, why take the chance?

 

[Cruzan80]

While I understand and appreciate the statistical concepts that you are sharing, if there are similarly priced options that avoid an issue experienced by pros, why take the chance?

Just was asking for context to people can make their own decisions. Same way some people refuse certain car brands, based on their "reputation", etc. This is GJ, everything that gets referenced here seems massively overbuilt...

 

[sparky 1971]

Not saying that Alu is superior. But 30+ years of service calls (even at one Alu panel a week) is 1500 panels and supposedly 100 bad ones. So a failure rate of under 7% by those numbers (and I am intentionally trying to estimate low for # of panels seen). This is where the context of how many good/bad comes in. This isn't counting age/brand/etc. Based on this, by the numbers, you saw 1500 good copper panels, and 1400 good Alu panels. Again, rough assumption of 1 panel per type, per week, 50wk/yr, 30yrs. Sounds a bit different when it is phrased like that.

That was all I was trying to bring up. Context and scale matters.

You're right. Context and scale matter. I know that people are cheap and aluminum buss panels outnumber copper panels. I don't know what the ratio is, but just for fun let's pretend it's 10:1 aluminum. Based on that, I should have seen about 10 burned up copper buss panels. If it's 25:1 aluminum, I should have seen four. I haven't seen a single one. Ever. Now, my estimate of 100 burned up aluminum panels could be off. It might be 75, it could be 150 but I doubt it's that many. But whatever the number is, I haven't seen seen, or heard of, a bad copper buss. Not saying there aren't or haven't been, but I am not familiar with one. The only reason I can come up with for that is copper is superior.

 

[Cruzan80]

I guess we are looking at it from two different points of view. I wasn't trying to argue at any point the benefit of copper vs aluminum, but rather the general failure rate of aluminum, so people could determine if the failure rate was worth the cost differential.

I wasn't trying to claim your numbers were inaccurate, or your claims were false in any way. Was just was trying to put the number of faulty vs non faulty Alu in perspective.

Kind of like the "Work to a price point" thread. Knowing all the information helps people make an informed decision for their use case.

 

[Innovate1]

A technicality but it's bus not buss. Buss is a brand name or a kiss. It's a common error...

 

[Don1357]

Interestingly enough the Square D and Siemens breakers fit both panels, on the store the Siemens breaker would not fit a Square D panel but Square D breaker would fit a Siemens panel.

This is because the Siemens has a shorter slot on the bottom that hits the electric bar on the Square D, but the Square D having a longer slot fits the Siemens. It looks like this

 

[bluedog225]

I dunno. “I’ve never seen a burned copper bus” counts for me. I come here for the voice of experience. And “never” works for me.

 

[Don1357]

This is interesting. Current Siemens panels are engineered so square D breakers won't fit them, but Siemens breakers fit square D panels. In this case my current Siemens panel is old enough that it doesn't have the "improved" interface, cross fit is the same.

Is there a practical reason not to use my Siemens breakers? The fit is identical. I'm asking about actual risk, not just the technicality.

 

[Norcal]

This is interesting. Current Siemens panels are engineered so square D breakers won't fit them, but Siemens breakers fit square D panels. In this case my current Siemens panel is old enough that it doesn't have the "improved" interface, cross fit is the same.

Is there a practical reason not to use my Siemens breakers? The fit is identical. I'm asking about actual risk, not just the technicality.

Siemens is not UL classified to be used in SQ D panels, & SQ D HOM is not UL classified to be in any competitive make of panel, Siemens & Eaton do manufacture UL classified breakers for some SQ D QO panels.

 

[dave*99]

I wonder what is the ratio of aluminum vs copper bus installations across the country.
It will impact the statistics.

 

[reader2580]

There are certainly way more aluminum bus load centers than copper bus, at least in residential. Builders tend to want to save money so they will typically use less expensive materials like load centers with aluminum buses. A lot of DIYers, or their electricians, are going to go to a big box store to get their load centers. Menards and Home Depot have about 1/3 of the in-stock load centers in copper bus while Lowes is probably at 40% because they carry a lot of GE load centers that are copper bus.

I chose to go with copper bus load centers for my own use. I currently have six load centers on my property that are Siemens copper bus. Two of the load centers are in my coach bus converted to a motorhome. I have no issues with aluminum buses, but I just feel that copper is a better material and the cost isn't that much more. There used to be a local store that sold Home Depot returns. I got one 200 amp load center there for $70. Nothing wrong with it that I could find. It looked like brand new other than the box. I bought other load centers from Amazon Warehouse Deals and they all looked like never used.

 

[Don1357]

Siemens is not UL classified to be used in SQ D panels, & SQ D HOM is not UL classified to be in any competitive make of panel, Siemens & Eaton do manufacture UL classified breakers for some SQ D QO panels.

Besides the technicality, is there a real possible issue? Bar thickness is the same, clamping grips the same, fit is the same, electric load is the same, the only difference seems to be that Siemens engineered newer boxes not to fully fit square D.

 

[PCustoms]

You can't use non-listed breakers in a panel

Period.

 

[sparky 1971]

You can't use non-listed breakers in a panel

Period.

Sure you can. You aren't supposed to, but it happens and I see it all the time. I couldn't begin to tell you how many times I've run across Homeline-Siemens-BR-GE cross contamination and not done a thing about it. Not my problem since it's not what I'm there for. I've never put a Homeline in another brand and I've never put another brand in a Homeline but during the 'Rona, due to the "supply chain issues", I used a few Siemens breakers in pre existing BR panels.

 

[PCustoms]

Sure you can. You aren't supposed to, but it happens and I see it all the time. I couldn't begin to tell you how many times I've run across Homeline-Siemens-BR-GE cross contamination and not done a thing about it. Not my problem since it's not what I'm there for. I've never put a Homeline in another brand and I've never put another brand in a Homeline but during the 'Rona, due to the "supply chain issues", I used a few Siemens breakers in pre existing BR panels.

Yep, and you can run 30A through 14 gage wire too, just like th "electrician" that built my house.
It even worked for a while. Does that mean I should have left it that way?

I don't know why you would post what you did in this thread.

 

[Cruzan80]

Would a better way to state using different breakers in panels that are not designed/labelled for them be:

"While they may physically fit, no official testing has been done to ensure the safety or long term reliability of this situation. Any use of them would be against code, and may open the owner up to liability from possible damage down the road (insurance non-coverage, etc). You do so at your own risk. I do not recommend doing so."

This does not count breakers that are listed as being able to be used in different panels (I know some breaker/panel combos are listed as being compatible). I know it sounds like legal-ese, but this is one where I would stick with known working versions (Even an ALU bus bar... :sarcasm: ).

 

[sparky 1971]

Yep, and you can run 30A through 14 gage wire too, just like th "electrician" that built my house.
It even worked for a while. Does that mean I should have left it that way?

Well, if it was for an air conditioner or other motor it might have been code compliant. If it wasn't for one of those, it might have been a hazzard and should have been corrected. Good for you. Now, can you tell us about the bad things that can happen if a non listed breaker is installed? I'll start with two. 1) an inspection could fail. 2) a warranty could be voided.

I don't know why you would post why you did in this thread.

Because you used the words "can't" and "period" in the post I quoted. That would lead some to believe that it's physically impossible.

You can't use non-listed breakers in a panel

Period.

 

[u2slow]

I prefer QO stuff. Wouldn't bother with plug-on neutral unless you have lots of GFCI or afci breakers to install.

There is also value in being able to re-use your existing breakers in another Siemens panel.

 

[PCustoms]

Well, if it was for an air conditioner or other motor it might have been code compliant. If it wasn't for one of those, it might have been a hazzard and should have been corrected. Good for you. Now, can you tell us about the bad things that can happen if a non listed breaker is installed? I'll start with two. 1) an inspection could fail. 2) a warranty could be voided.

Because you used the words "can't" and "period" in the post I quoted. That would lead some to believe that it's physically impossible.

Trying to keep it simple for someone.

Whatever, you do you. Stay away from my wiring though.

 

[Don1357]

Would a better way to state using different breakers in panels that are not designed/labelled for them be:

"While they may physically fit, no official testing has been done to ensure the safety or long term reliability of this situation. Any use of them would be against code, and may open the owner up to liability from possible damage down the road (insurance non-coverage, etc). You do so at your own risk. I do not recommend doing so."

This does not count breakers that are listed as being able to be used in different panels (I know some breaker/panel combos are listed as being compatible). I know it sounds like legal-ese, but this is one where I would stick with known working versions (Even an ALU bus bar... :sarcasm: ).

My question is more of real life problem, not whether the outcome could be unfathomable in a theoretical way.

I have the breakers in front of me, I'm measuring the thickness of the powered bar and it is the same, so the clamps on both breakers grip it with the same strength. It is not like either breaker is a Chinese knock off with no US certification, they have both extensively tested both in the lab and in the field, so the fact that they can handle the load they were designed for is a well established one. And then there is the actual physical testing; if I mount both Square D and Siemens breakers on the Square D box, they fit the same, side by side, up and down, same resistance going in and coming out, and align with the cover the same way.

If I was buying new breakers I would get the breaker that matches the box but given the fact that I have a bunch of breakers on hand, I would like to know if there is a real concern other than the setup not having been blessed by the pope on black Friday.

 

[PCustoms]

Yes they fit, but they aren't correct.

Is being a hack and potentially having a problem worth saving $100? Do whatever you want.

How we went from arguing that aluminum bus are bad to justifying non-listed breakers is beyond me...

 

[Cruzan80]

I am not going to say if it is OK or not, as it isn't what it is designed for. The testing was with listed compatible equipment.

 

[sparky 1971]

How we went from arguing that aluminum bus are bad to justifying non-listed breakers is beyond me...

The same way that you started a thread asking about the max distance for 4/0 wire and later asked where to connect the ground rods and how to secure THWN wire inside of conduit. There are very few threads on here that I remember after a week, but because of the questions asked, I doubt I'll ever be able to forget it.

200a feed to dwelling, 4/0 max distance?

Trying to plan out fixing an issue with the feed to my house. House doesn't currently need 200a, but with the possibility of adding a detached off that panel, adding AC and future EV chargers I think it's best to buy once, cry once. Can aluminum 4/0 support that load? What distance? Can I...

www.garagejournal.com

The OP started the thread by asking about panels in general, and that should include breakers and it was him that asked.

 

[PCustoms]

The OP started the thread by asking about panels in general, and that should include breakers and it was him that asked.

Cool.

Instead of providing accurate information, get stuck on semantics and advocate for non-compliant, potentially dangerous work.

If they breaker isn't listed for the panel it cannot be used. Sure it may fit physically, but it still cannot be used.

You could cut half the strands off the main feed and stuff it into too small a terminal. You could put a drywall screw into the feed and tap off it. You could run 2 wire feed to an outbuilding, no ground rods, no GFCI and stand on flooded concrete in your sandals as you jumper around your meter.

You're supposedly an electrician, I'm sure there is lots of dumb **** you can make work and feel proud of. None of that would be correct, but sure you "can" do it.

I'm done.

 

[Norcal]

Cool.

Instead of providing accurate information, get stuck on semantics and advocate for non-compliant, potentially dangerous work.

If they breaker isn't listed for the panel it cannot be used. Sure it may fit physically, but it still cannot be used.

You could cut half the strands off the main feed and stuff it into too small a terminal. You could put a drywall screw into the feed and tap off it. You could run 2 wire feed to an outbuilding, no ground rods, no GFCI and stand on flooded concrete in your sandals as you jumper around your meter.

You're supposedly an electrician, I'm sure there is lots of dumb **** you can make work and feel proud of. None of that would be correct, but sure you "can" do it.

I'm done.

Only OEM breakers are listed, but UL has classified SOME breakers to be used in competitive panels, Eaton CL is one example.

 

[PCustoms]

...

 

[reader2580]

A lot is written about using the same brand of panel in house and garage, but how many times do you remove a breaker from one panel, and then later need the same size breaker in your other panel? For most panels the cost of a standard 15/20/30 amp breaker is cheap enough if you need a new one. I have probably 60 to 70 breakers on my property, and only one ever went bad. The builder on my new garage this past summer kept tripping a breaker and shouldn't have been overloading it. I swapped out the breaker and the problem went away. The breaker was from 2017 or 2018.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My question is more of real life problem, not whether the outcome could be unfathomable in a theoretical way.

I have the breakers in front of me, I'm measuring the thickness of the powered bar and it is the same, so the clamps on both breakers grip it with the same strength. It is not like either breaker is a Chinese knock off with no US certification, they have both extensively tested both in the lab and in the field, so the fact that they can handle the load they were designed for is a well established one. And then there is the actual physical testing; if I mount both Square D and Siemens breakers on the Square D box, they fit the same, side by side, up and down, same resistance going in and coming out, and align with the cover the same way.

If I was buying new breakers I would get the breaker that matches the box but given the fact that I have a bunch of breakers on hand, I would like to know if there is a real concern other than the setup not having been blessed by the pope on black Friday.

the dimensions arent the only issue. there is also metal alloy compositions that matter. 2 metals that arent made to expand and contract together can cause issues ie. at the bus stabs. Ive seen burned up busses quite a bit.

 

[Don1357]

Follow up question; for the splice box, are these rail blocks kosher instead of the standard twist screw caps? They are rated to 10agw/30 amps, the highest amperage I'm using is 20 amps (there is one 30amp 220v circuit which should be 15 amps per leg).


If I do the hot splicing with these and the neutral using a ground bar I would think it be neater and less prone to issues.

 

[Cruzan80]

there is one 30amp 220v circuit which should be 15 amps per leg).

Not how that works. 30A @ 240V is still 30A, not 15 each (when talking about rated capacity).