looking for advice regarding garage doors

[soloz2]

I am in bad need of some new garage doors. my main garage has 3 old wood doors and I need to replace the two main doors so I can actually use my garage. Since I'm new to this I'm seeking some advice here. I have also come to realize that my doors are not exactly standard. The opening for the two main doors are as follows:
6' 8 3/4" high and 10' (80 3/4" x 120") wide for one and 6' 8 1/4" high by 10' 1/2" (80 1/4" x 120 1/2")
To compound issues, I have low clearance all around inside.
headroom: 6" (the current doors are a bit taller and I have 4" from top of doors to ceiling)
sideroom: 3.5-4" either side
backroom: this is the only place I don't have any issues. I easily have 15'

I asked 3 local companies to come out and quote me doors, but only 2 actually came and I wasn't thrilled with either. The better of the two quoted me CHI 2283 10' x 6' 9" windowed doors for $1510 installed each. T
The second company came when I was not home so I could not meet with them and they quoted me CHI 2283 10' x 6' 6" doors saying I had to frame down the opening myself prior to them coming. They quoted me $1300 each. This quote specified extension springs. The first quote did not specify torsion or extension springs, but I seem to recall it being extension springs.

It seems I can order Holmes doors from the local lumber yard in model 6200 Gold series w/ windows for $877.20, or step up to the 7130 series for $946. They did have lesser options as well. They said I could choose either extension springs or rear mount torsion spring. Either way, I know I need low headroom track kit.

I did also snag 2 of the clearance $99 chamberlain garage door openers and I plan to install them on the front two doors.

Here's where I'm torn.
1. knowing how little headroom I have would it be better to custom order say a 6'8" door or a 6' 9" door or should I just frame down to 6' 6" to give myself the extra two inches of headroom? This would net me 7.5-8" headroom, or almost enough for a front mount torsion but alas not enough.
2. Do I stick with extension springs knowing they will not last as long, but will definitely be easier to install and just plan to replace them mid-life cycle. or do I go with the rear mount torsion spring? I have heard rear mount torsion is not as good as front mount, but is possibly better than extension. However, rear mount torsion apparently requires professional installation?
3. Do I go with the 2" polystyrene style door in either CHI or Holmes with an R value between 9-9.6 or do I step up to the 1 3/8" polyurethane door with an r value of 12.9?
4. Do I replace both doors together, or one this year and one next year? I'm leaning towards both this year as the one door is quite rotted and the second has decided to get caught on the opening and now requires 2 people to open.

I hope I have explained clearly enough my plight and I eagerly await the advice of the gurus. Also, I know I could remove windows to shave costs here, but I would really like to keep windows as I have windows now, and I do like to detail my cars so having a little extra natural light would be helpful.

 

[Hot Rod Grampa]

Yes your clearances are tight. I doubt you will find a company that will make a steel insulated door in a odd size height. Width yes. So 6'9" or 6'6" but a 6'9" rear torsion should work. Most 10' wide doors will be 5 window so you would have a brace in the middle window if you went with extension springs since you must be centered with the opener. With torsion you could offset the opener to align with the post between the windows. Make sure you order the doors with the correct hardware for installing an opener. A strut and correct length bracket. Do not use the one that comes with the opener. Also order low headroom extension brackets for the eyes on the opener. Otherwise the outside draw low headroom cable brackets will interfere with the eyes. If you do not heat the space full time, a high R door will not be cost effective. You want a 3 layer door for sure.

 

[soloz2]

Yes your clearances are tight. I doubt you will find a company that will make a steel insulated door in a odd size height. Width yes. So 6'9" or 6'6" but a 6'9" rear torsion should work. Most 10' wide doors will be 5 window so you would have a brace in the middle window if you went with extension springs since you must be centered with the opener. With torsion you could offset the opener to align with the post between the windows. Make sure you order the doors with the correct hardware for installing an opener. A strut and correct length bracket. Do not use the one that comes with the opener. Also order low headroom extension brackets for the eyes on the opener. Otherwise the outside draw low headroom cable brackets will interfere with the eyes. If you do not heat the space full time, a high R door will not be cost effective. You want a 3 layer door for sure.

I don't currently heat it full time, but I have plans to in the future. I have a loft upstairs that once I insulate and add more lighting and electrical it will be my wood shop. Right now, just the first floor is insulated and heated.
I was considering going with the long panel doors. My only concern is how big of a space there will be in the middle and sides. I might stick with standard short panel.
I was really only looking at 3 layer doors, just unsure if the better insulation is worth the extra price. The price difference is really only about $75 per door so not a big deal. Would a 2" thick door with styrofoam be almost as strong as a 1 3/8" door with better insulation? I'm leaning towards the better insulation as it would also be a less thick door which would give just a little bit more clearance when pulling in.
So you think a 6'9" door will fit with rear torsion?
I will have to ask about the parts needed for the opener. Would I need to get the sensor brackets from the door manufactur or Chamberlain?
Good info to know, thank you for the response!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SGKent]

especially with a low door like that people will be able to look in. Do you want that? I prefer no windows myself. No spiders hanging out by the windows, no people looking in to see if anything is worth stealing, and no UV getting in to bleach things.

I put in my first garage door. It wasn't that hard, nor was setting the torsion spring. But when it was time to replace it, the shop that sold me the door and an opener included the install so I went with it. Guy did an excellent job.

 

[ezover]

can you just order the doors and use the current hardware? if the tracks and springs are in good working order not sure I would replace them.

 

[soloz2]

can you just order the doors and use the current hardware? if the tracks and springs are in good working order not sure I would replace them.

Hardware and springs need to be replaced. On two of the 3 doors I have the PO replaced springs, but didn't use the proper springs. The door in the back (pull through) can either be set up to not hold the door open, but allow it to close, or not allow the door to close. The front door that's actually in better condition is the same, but I just realized this as it was connected to an opener that would lift it. Surprising, as I weighed the door at 180lbs! I also have bent hardware, sticky rolers, and at least one broken hinge.
I think at this point, I'm better off upgrading doors. I don't think I can swing the back door this year so I scraped and primed it yesterday. Realized the PO used sharpie to color it black so it didn't look so bad. Also have holes I need to putty or caulk before painting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[kd3pc]

In my current home, I have Herrman doors, installed by a reputable company. It works flawlessly every time, is well insulated, and quiet.

The outlaws have the low end box store doors and they have never worked well, the installer was careless, clueless and not interested.

Find a reputable dealer, and go from there. It may cost, though. My current doors were almost $2K each, installed and going on 7 years without a hitch.

 

[Hot Rod Grampa]

Doors sections are part of a system. The springs are rated for the weight of the door. The flags that hold the track to the wall are different size for the thickness of the door. Please replace everything at once with the proper hardware for that door model. The better insulation is sprayed in place inside the door skins so it adheres to the sides and helps stiffen the structure. The styrofoam doors have simple panels laid in place as the door is assembled. That may help you in your decision process.

 

[CraigStu]

I don't know enough to add much except this. I 'think' you have two doors in front and another elsewhere. I would replace both front doors now. Not specifically on garage doors but I have been burned a few times when something seems to be a standard common item but then, a year later, when I want to buy one to match, it has been changed.

 

[soloz2]

I don't know enough to add much except this. I 'think' you have two doors in front and another elsewhere. I would replace both front doors now. Not specifically on garage doors but I have been burned a few times when something seems to be a standard common item but then, a year later, when I want to buy one to match, it has been changed.

Thanks, this is something I had thought about and was honestly a fear of mine. Talked through things with my wife over the weekend and I'm leaning towards ordering both front doors.
The door in back, I primed, hit the rot with wood filler, and threw a coat of paint on this morning. I need to get the trim done, but I'm working on getting some windows painted too. Too much to do with an old house.
Here's the back door after a bit of TLC. Honestly, I didn't put too much effort into it because I will need to replace it. in a year or two if it doesn't match the front doors it won't be a huge deal as it's on the back of the garage going into my fenced yard. But it is important to me to have the front doors match.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[vavet]

Clearly it's time to bulldoze the whole garage and replace it with a 60'x100'x14' shop building. You might need to buy your neighbor's house and bulldoze that too.

 

[soloz2]

Okay, thinking some more and talking with my wife about garage doors.
We would both prefer windows, and the garage is situated behind the house so if anyone is going to be looking in my garage they will already be well onto my property and at that point they are likely looking for things anyway. I would opt for windows on the top row considering the short door will only have 4 panels and not 5 like my current doors have.

I read the install sheet for the Chamberlain B1381 and it says up to 2" above the door may be needed to install. The Holmes garage door install sheet specs to add 3" to what they spec for overhead clearance. A rear mount torsion spring requires 5" which I have. Would that be enough to also install the openers, or do I need to pad down the header and install 6'6" doors? If I do this, I would effectively have 8" overhead (add 3"). I'm leaning towards this just to ensure I don't have to get creative mid-install.

I understand I also need to add the following to my order:
low headroom sensor eye extension brackets
An extra strut and correct length bracket for the top panel to mount the opener to

 

[soloz2]

I talked to Holmes and they confirmed the door comes with the bracket to mount the opener, it would also not interfere with the middle window. They recommended extension springs for my install instead of the rear mount torsion saying I would have to get the 8' kit for my openers and mount them further back, and the rear mount torsion was difficult to install/get set up right. So, now I'm torn on rear mount torsion or extension.

I also learned I was originally quoted for single pane glass not insulated as I had thought. I got the price for insulated glass and that pushes the doors out of budget, so I can go with no windows or single pane.

Has anyone here gone with a rear mount torsion and be able to say if they would do it again? Youtube seems to have lots of problems with rear mount torsion systems that require pros to fix.

 

[paredown]

I'm watching this post with interest, since I also have low headroom, and had trouble getting consistent information and finding a competent installer. I have mine tacked up "temporarily" which has been a couple of years--opening doors would be nice!

I actually hadn't heard of the rear torsion spring install until recently--and neither of the two installers who came out to look at mine mentioned it as a possibility. Where we ended up was low headroom track, and a conventional front torsion, although from the look of it I have a little more clearance than you do.

 

[soloz2]

I'm watching this post with interest, since I also have low headroom, and had trouble getting consistent information and finding a competent installer. I have mine tacked up "temporarily" which has been a couple of years--opening doors would be nice!

I actually hadn't heard of the rear torsion spring install until recently--and neither of the two installers who came out to look at mine mentioned it as a possibility. Where we ended up was low headroom track, and a conventional front torsion, although from the look of it I have a little more clearance than you do.

That's actually the situation I'm in too. I contacted several local installers, but only two were willing to come look. Both said they would use extension springs. I believe if I could get the rear torsion to work it would likely be the better setup, but I am not sure I could get it operating correctly. I have searched online and most mentions of it appear to be companies saying they came to fix a system that wasn't working properly initially. This coupled with the fact the two companies that did come out both spec'd extension springs for my install leads me to believe the rear mount while technically superior is complicated to configure properly.
I do realize if I opt for extension springs I will need to plan to replace them at some point, and I will either need to choose no windows or go with a long panel door so the brace is not in the middle of the 5th window.

I'm leaning towards short panel no windows or long panel and single panel glass. My current doors did not fog/freeze up badly last winter so aside from some heat loss I'm not sure single pane would really be that big an issue for me. I'm weighing the offset between natural light and heat loss.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hot Rod Grampa]

There is nothing that difficult about rear torsion. You need to be able to read directions and then follow them. I have installed many of them and they are just as bulletproof as front torsion. But they are not as fast to install so the installers shy away from them. You have to measure and layout the tracks and tube accurately so it works the first time. A square plus B square equals C square. Before ordering, be sure your building is square. Torsion spring door can't be tweaked like an extension spring one. The horizontal tracks have to sit square against the header or one of the cables will keep falling off. Remember the drums will be outside the track on these so be sure you have room for them. And you could use the shaft drive opener on a rear torsion spring also. Units doesn't know it's not vertical.

 

[paredown]

...And you could use the shaft drive opener on a rear torsion spring also. Units doesn't know it's not vertical.

This I'm intrigued by, but there is no information on how to do this correctly and install the cable tension device. I was looking at the in-house *pdf that mentions a rear install with the 8500, they mention that it will require "fabrication" to work correctly, but don't provide the info on how to do it.

The one Youtube video I can find shows a rear tosion install with an 8500, but he simply left the cable tension monitor off, AFAIK.

Any idea where I could find actual accurate install information?

 

[soloz2]

There is nothing that difficult about rear torsion. You need to be able to read directions and then follow them. I have installed many of them and they are just as bulletproof as front torsion. But they are not as fast to install so the installers shy away from them. You have to measure and layout the tracks and tube accurately so it works the first time. A square plus B square equals C square. Before ordering, be sure your building is square. Torsion spring door can't be tweaked like an extension spring one. The horizontal tracks have to sit square against the header or one of the cables will keep falling off. Remember the drums will be outside the track on these so be sure you have room for them. And you could use the shaft drive opener on a rear torsion spring also. Units doesn't know it's not vertical.

Thanks, that's good information to have. I measured and my garage is not square, but it isn't horrible either. Looks to be about 3/16" off in 2' based on my square. I measured the current tracks and both are off about 1" corner to corner. I don't have a ton of room on the left side of each track, but the building is actually off that way so I would have slightly more room at the back of the track where the bar and drunk go. Just not sure I have enough room.
I had originally asked of of the installers if I could put a rear mount torsion with a jackshaft opener and was told I couldn't do that. Interesting...I already have 2 of the belt drive b1381 openers and a 8500 isn't in the budget, but if I can get the rear setup working it might be something to keep in mind for the future.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[soloz2]

Okay, so I ordered two doors this morning and expect them in a couple weeks.
My opening is exactly 10' wide and since I have limited side room, I'm going to.pad the opening 3/4" on each side to make sure I can get a good deal. I'm also padding the header 2.5" to account for the 6'6" doors instead of 6'9" doors. This will give me more headroom to work with. I previously only had 4" on one door. and 4.5" on the other.
I opted for Holmes 7133 doors, long panel so I have two big windows instead of 5 small ones. I also upgraded the hardware and got the rear mount torsion system. Everything should be in in about 2 weeks and then will be delivered and I can start working on them. I let my wife choose colors and patterns. She opted for a new color, charcoal instead of white like we had. I can't wait! It'll be so nice to not have to get my wife to help me open the door to pull my car in for an oil change like I did today. My wife is pretty stoked that she will be able to park in the garage again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[soloz2]

Figured I would post an update here. The doors took longer to come in than expected. They finally came in about a week ago and I took last Friday off to install. Doors were delivered Friday morning, and I had the first door out and opening framed. I went to install the new door, only to realize the bottom panel was damaged [emoji2959] alright, I have a second identical door so I’ll just install one this weekend and have one good new door. I open the second door and the bottom panel is damaged again [emoji2959]. No other panels were damaged. The lumbar yard I purchased through delivered some osb so I could cover up the door. Still upset over this.

The bottom panel on the old door came out in pieces so it was clearly time to be replaced.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hot Rod Grampa]

That is too bad they came in damaged. Had it been a 6'9" or 7' door you could have swapped the bottom astregal and retainer to another section. But patience is a virtue, right? Hang in there and good luck.

 

[soloz2]

That is too bad they came in damaged. Had it been a 6'9" or 7' door you could have swapped the bottom astregal and retainer to another section. But patience is a virtue, right? Hang in there and good luck.

Thanks, yeah. You are right about that.

Also, fun fact. Holmes uses different hinge and opener support configurations depending on short panel vs long panel. The install instructions state to use two vertical struts with a horizontal 28" angle iron for opener support. This works with short panel with 5 windows so one is centered so you don't have vertical struts in the middle of a window. Long panel just uses a single vertical panel. So all my back and forth trying to decide if it would look alright to get long vs short was not necessary at all. [emoji28]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[soloz2]

Replacements came in and I'm so done. Delivery guy calls and tells me I wasn't home so he put the replacement panels in my yard WTF? Supposed to get rain and snow tonight/tomorrow, and I'm at work till 7 today. I skip my 3pm meeting to haul *** home after telling him to hold tight. Call the wife and she too hauls back home. Get home and once again panels are damaged. One is slightly bent, unsure if it'll really matter, but all of them have a nick or scratch down to bare metal. I called store manager and got his voicemail. Needless to say, I left a less than happy message. At this point I’m considering requesting a full refund and ordering doors somewhere else. I’ll give it until tomorrow and escalate to store owner.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[soloz2]

Was able to get one door installed out of replacements and decided to go for it as a door is better than OSB, or at least what I thought. Installed the door, followed all directions... But the rear torsion spring has too much torque for the mounts and even after opening and closing just to test is starting to bend things so I'm not using the door right now. Anyone with experience know what's up? What do I need to do here, other than switch to extension springs? I just can't win here...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[soloz2]

Alright, I picked up the Clopay rear track hanger kit to compare with the angle iron I got from the lumber yard. The Clopay stuff was significantly heavier duty while the stuff I had could be easily flexed in your hand.
An interesting fact is that no one seems to stock anything heavier duty than 14awg, while the install instructions clearly call for 13awg minimum. The lumbar yard had some that I believe is technically 14, but it's not a strong 14 at all.
Here's what I came up with yesterday. It seems to be super strong now. No flex, and the end of the track can hold my weight easily. I used 2x4 to allow use of lags on the torsion bar mounts on each end and the center. I offset the spring so I should have plenty of room to get my opener mounted above the spring directly center.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[oilslick]

You are getting there, keep at it and you will end up understanding garage door fundamentals better than most. If you have menards stores nearby I'd recommend getting unistrut in 8' lengths and ditch all of the lumber you have mounted.

 

[soloz2]

You are getting there, keep at it and you will end up understanding garage door fundamentals better than most. If you have menards stores nearby I'd recommend getting unistrut in 8' lengths and ditch all of the lumber you have mounted.

I don't have a Menards nearby. I have Lowe's or Home Depot. Wish we had a Menards.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[soloz2]

I want to thank everyone that helped me with this project. It has been nothing short of a nightmare, but it is done! All that remains is to settle up with the lumbar yard and get a few things squared away.


Ordered at the end of August with an ETA of 2 weeks.
Told they would be in 9/28 on 9/27, then never heard until I followed up on 9/30 again.
No call and delivery attempt 10/2, but no one was home because I didn't know the doors were in.
Took off work on 10/11 to install. Removed first door and built out opening only to get damaged doors and spend the next month with the opening boarded up and unable to use half my garage.
Manufacturer refused to offer discount or rush replacement panels (5 of 8 panels were damaged)
Replacements came in scratched, but not in obvious places and I was promised touch up paint and a partial refund. Again, delivery was attempted when I was at work and I got a call saying they left the panels in my yard and I had to leave work to go get them.
Provided angle iron from lumbar yard was not sufficient to hang tracks and I had to redo the work several times.
Got one door done and working and stopped by to request some more facia be delivered as I did not have an easy way to transport 12' material. Was promised it would be delivered 11/27 or 11/29. I called on 11/29 and was informed they had no record of my order.
I strapped the facia to the roof of my wife's outback on 12/2 and finished up the second door on 12/2 and 12/3, again having to miss work to complete.

All in, a little over 3 months filled with empty promises and disappointment. I'm relieved to be done with this project and will be getting future materials elsewhere for sure! Thank you again for everyone who offered support and ideas here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk