Looking to build a pole barn, questions

[supermoose]

Hey guys, I heard this is the place on the web for garage related questions.

Zoning approved my variance this evening, so I'll be able to build a 30x40x25 pole barn for use as a garage. The only dimension in question for me will be the height (whether I need to go that high at the pitch of the roof).

I've talked to a number of builders over the past year regarding the height of the structure. My basement is unusable for my reloading hobby and I'll need to do that in the garage. I also have three vehicles (as of now) to store and I'd like to put a lift in that would accommodate a truck.

I wanted to pick your brains on two main things.

When looking at the height, I discussed building a loft that would span 2/3 of the structure width, allowing one section that would be open and certainly tall enough to accommodate a lift tall enough to put a truck in the air. The builders I spoke to all seemed to lean towards posts in the ground for the loft because the rafters are prefabbed and wouldn't accommodate the load. I'd like to be able to park vehicles under the loft and still maintain enough ceiling height on the loft area to mount reloading presses (I think I'd need at least 8' to accommodate the bench, case feeder, being able to reach into the case feeders, and mount lights/mirrors above), use for general storage, etc.

Any recommendations/pictures of lofts you may have built to help me get ideas? Would it be better to maybe just run the loft across the back of the structure or in an L shape? I just don't want to build something that later I regret not having more space on. Also, what's the minimum ceiling height I'd need to accommodate a lift with a truck? I think I understand it to be 14' but I want to make sure I understand that correctly.

Second, water is going to be an endeavor. I can pipe water from my house (which would be a long run and costly, potentially adding more to my sewer bill as well based on my conversations with the zoning officer). I have also seen, even on this forum, people collecting rain water in cisterns and using transfer pumps to feed it into the building. I'd be using it for a utility sink and hose bibs. So I'd need to figure out an appropriate size and whether this is an avenue that is financially less costly, somewhat low maintenance, and/or actually feasible.

I'm in an area that gets decent rain fall and with the amount of water I plan to use, I don't think I'd find myself in a situation of running out. I'd be surprised if I used more than 200 gallons a month on average. It does freeze in the winter, so I'd have to plan on how to guard against that.

Lastly, windows, doors, and garage doors. Suggestions on how many? I was originally looking at 2 - 10x10 garage doors, 4 windows, and a man door. I don't know if more windows might be better.

I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions (insulation, electric, heat, etc.) at some point, but I feel like this is a good place to start.

Any help or other questions you may have that would allow me to better plan this so I can do it right the first time would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[racecougar]

1. When talking buildings, that third dimension is typically ceiling height. I'll say that you definitely had my attention when you said 30x40x25!

2. Yes, you're not going to hang a loft from the roof trusses (not rafters). If you want a clear span, you'll need a beam capable of supporting the anticipated loading.

3. 12' is the minimum ceiling height to make a lift really usable, IMO. Yes, folks get by with 10' all the time, but compromises are made. That said, since you're planning a loft, I'd go for a 16' ceiling height to accommodate.

4. As far as rainwater collection goes, there are location-specific rules to that. You'll need to check with the AHJ for your area. At the very least, I'd plan on chlorinating it to minimize the chance of any bacterial growths.

5. Windows and doors are all personal preference. They consume wall space, but provide ambient light and fresh air. You have to make the call there.

 

[supermoose]

Understood as to the ceiling height. The height of my building is limited to 25'. I'm just trying to figure out how high it has to be to comfortable accommodate a second floor and have useable space as far as headroom on it but still be under that threshold. I guess I need more information from the builder(s) to understand/see how the trusses would run and how much space I'd still have (also accounting for insulation).

In talking with the zoning officer, rain water collection is no issue and would help count towards storm water control (I can't lay down crushed stone as a driveway right now since all the impervious surfaces on my lot (including this proposed building) would put me over the allowable amount without storm water control). Appreciate your input and information on that point. I have more research to do on that for sure.

I think my plan would be to put in windows that light the second floor on the gable sides and have several windows along the back side across from the doors to put more light in the building from the outside.

I was also now looking into steel buildings. Any better/worse? Obviously cost of materials would play into this but I'd presume steel would have more longevity than wood.

Lastly, while I'm thinking about it, bay doors on the gable or eaves side? I had planned for eaves side and in the rough sketch I just did, I did two 10x12 doors and one 12x12 door on the eaves side.

 

[Codyboy]

Understood as to the ceiling height. The height of my building is limited to 25'. I'm just trying to figure out how high it has to be to comfortable accommodate a second floor and have useable space as far as headroom on it but still be under that threshold. I guess I need more information from the builder(s) to understand/see how the trusses would run and how much space I'd still have (also accounting for insulation).

In talking with the zoning officer, rain water collection is no issue and would help count towards storm water control (I can't lay down crushed stone as a driveway right now since all the impervious surfaces on my lot (including this proposed building) would put me over the allowable amount without storm water control). Appreciate your input and information on that point. I have more research to do on that for sure.

I think my plan would be to put in windows that light the second floor on the gable sides and have several windows along the back side across from the doors to put more light in the building from the outside.

I was also now looking into steel buildings. Any better/worse? Obviously cost of materials would play into this but I'd presume steel would have more longevity than wood.

Lastly, while I'm thinking about it, bay doors on the gable or eaves side? I had planned for eaves side and in the rough sketch I just did, I did two 10x12 doors and one 12x12 door on the eaves side.

Those doors seem small to me if your trying to store 3 cars and also have a lift.

Example. My garage (4 car) has two 16ft doors , width is around 40ft .
I can comfortably park only only 2 trucks and one 73 vette. The vette is centered between the doors and takes a little maneuvering to get it in and out.

 

[supermoose]

Those doors seem small to me if your trying to store 3 cars and also have a lift.

Example. My garage (4 car) has two 16ft doors , width is around 40ft .
I can comfortably park only only 2 trucks and one 73 vette. The vette is centered between the doors and takes a little maneuvering to get it in and out.

Happen to have any pictures so I can see how this looks?

 

[Codyboy]

Happen to have any pictures so I can see how this looks?

 

[supermoose]

Codyboy, what are the dimensions of your garage?

Right now I'm working with a F-150 Raptor and two old Benz's that are smaller. One can live in the carport I have to be honest since it's a daily beater. The other is a classic that I want to keep in a nicer shop that is enclosed. So even if I'm down to two vehicles, it isn't the end of the world. I figured one bay door would open right to the lift. The other two, if I have two others, would just go to the open area next to the lift.

 

[racecougar]

Understood as to the ceiling height. The height of my building is limited to 25'. I'm just trying to figure out how high it has to be to comfortable accommodate a second floor and have useable space as far as headroom on it but still be under that threshold. I guess I need more information from the builder(s) to understand/see how the trusses would run and how much space I'd still have (also accounting for insulation).

You should be able to get a 16' ceiling and remain under your 25' peak requirement. Speaking of which, you should confirm that that limit is indeed the peak and not the average roof height. Different AHJ's measure to different points.

I was also now looking into steel buildings. Any better/worse? Obviously cost of materials would play into this but I'd presume steel would have more longevity than wood.

Are you talking about red iron or the tubular steel carport-style buildings?

Lastly, while I'm thinking about it, bay doors on the gable or eaves side? I had planned for eaves side and in the rough sketch I just did, I did two 10x12 doors and one 12x12 door on the eaves side.

That depends on your site and how you'll use the building. You're going to fit 32' of door on a 40' wall?

 

[supermoose]

You should be able to get a 16' ceiling and remain under your 25' peak requirement. Speaking of which, you should confirm that that limit is indeed the peak and not the average roof height. Different AHJ's measure to different points.

Are you talking about red iron or the tubular steel carport-style buildings?


That depends on your site and how you'll use the building. You're going to fit 32' of door on a 40' wall?

I'll talk to the zoning officer about that. I believe it is the peak of the roof.

I glanced at what I believe was red iron. I'd have to double check.

And good point on fitting 32' of door on a 40' wall. The builder 3d model let me do it but perhaps that's foolish.

 

[Codyboy]

28x45.

4 or 5ft on the right where the hose is a stairwell , closet space and sink on that wall.
So usable garage space around 26x40.

I park my F150 with 6.5 bed in there with a fridge in front of it. Still plenty of room depth wise.
A suburban on the left side with my workbench in front of that. That left side area is actually 28ft deep due to a gable bump out on the front.

For me a 16ft door is only good for one big vehicle. For small cars you could get two cars but would be a little tight.

If your having a lift will you still be able to park a vehicle in that space under it or will it just take up space until needed?

 

[mm08822]

Pickup truck or.........what's its height? The lift is for repairs or storage beneath it?

 

[racecougar]

Also, I agree that with a 30' deep bay, you don't necessarily need a door directly in front of each parking spot. You can see my truck tucked completely out of line of the door here; it's simple to back it in. These are 16' doors on a 30x60x13.

OLD pics:

 

[Codyboy]

You should be able to get a 16' ceiling and remain under your 25' peak requirement. Speaking of which, you should confirm that that limit is indeed the peak and not the average roof height. Different AHJ's measure to different points.

Are you talking about red iron or the tubular steel carport-style buildings?


That depends on your site and how you'll use the building. You're going to fit 32' of door on a 40' wall?

I have two 16ft doors (32) on a 40ft wall.
Now 3 doors like op mentioned idk.

 

[racecougar]

I have two 16ft doors (32) on a 40ft wall.
Now 3 doors like op mentioned idk.

You mean a 45' wall, right?

28x45.

 

[Codyboy]

You mean a 45' wall, right?

And the next paragraph..
28x45.

4 or 5ft on the right where the hose is a stairwell , closet space and sink on that wall.
So usable garage space around 26x40.

 

[supermoose]

Pickup truck or.........what's its height? The lift is for repairs or storage beneath it?

F-150 Raptor. Under 7 feet tall.

Also, I agree that with a 30' deep bay, you don't necessarily need a door directly in front of each parking spot. You can see my truck tucked completely out of line of the door here; it's simple to back it in. These are 16' doors on a 30x60x13.

OLD pics:

Thanks. These pictures are helpful. Is your ceiling height 13' with the metal on the interior?

 

[Codyboy]

And the next paragraph..
28x45.

4 or 5ft on the right where the hose is a stairwell , closet space and sink on that wall.
So usable garage space around 26x40.

Roughly..

 

[racecougar]

And the next paragraph..
28x45.

4 or 5ft on the right where the hose is a stairwell , closet space and sink on that wall.
So usable garage space around 26x40.

It is a 45' framed wall, is it not? The concern is framing/foundation here.

Thanks. These pictures are helpful. Is your ceiling height 13' with the metal on the interior?

12'7". It's just quicker/easier to say 13.

 

[carlaisle]

If 25' if the max height at the peak and you end up with a 4/12 pitch roof, you'll end up with a 20' max sidewall height. You're going to lose a foot to the second floor structure. If everyone is okay with a building this size you could have an entire second floor inside. Scissor trusses will give you more headroom on the second level.

I know a guy who ran into a max height issue where he used to live. The person who had to sign off on it was friendly and explained the max height of the ancillary building was not absolute but measured relative to the residence. His solution was to regrade where he placed the building to lower the ground level a couple of feet so he could get the interior height he wanted.

 

[strength_and_power]

For reference, my shop is 40’ wide x 60’ long. 14’ walls and 20’ peak. The roof beams are 20’ apart so 2/3 is pretty close to your proposed size. The Galvalume wall panel is 8’ tall. I’m planning on a mezzanine across the back, floor will be at the top of the Galvalume.

Do you have any drawings of your property including existing driveway, proposed location of the new building, which way the building will face etc? There is a lot of smart folks here that will be able to give much better advice on man door, garage door and window layout with the above information.

 

[larry_g]

You can have a gander at my building, linked below, to see what I did. My goal was to have a clean area for the machines, a loft above for the wife's endeavors and a dirty area for fab work. So I have a 12x36' loft with same size machine room and 36x36 fab area. OH doors are 10x12.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Natty Bumppo]

Roughly a 25x35 with a 12' wall and attic trusses. Plenty of height for my Rotary lift and my Silverado. I would be hard pressed to fit 3 cars in there with the lift....but with your 30x40 I think more doable. I also have no basement so went with attic trusses which gives me a ton of extra room above the garage. We divided the space with a wall and have one room for storage and one room for a nice fitness and work-out room.

 

[kj_mustang]

I have a 32 x 52 with 16' sidewalls and 4 x 12 roof. Half done with normal truss so it has 16 ceilings. Other half done with scissor truss and a second floor. Lower level has 8' ceiling height. Poles and 2x12 for center support to hold the floor joist. Upstairs has 11' at the center height.
You can look at pictures of my build for any ideas for yours.

 

[CraigStu]

One other Q for the zoning guy is what is the minimum ceiling height for below the loft and above it? Typical house is 8ft so you need 8' + 8' + 1' for the loft structure or 17ft walls. Or maybe the loft has cape cod type walls where the roof is cutting into the ceiling height at the ends. What would be the minimums for that? Typically min ceiling height for a lift is 12ft or you might want to go 1-2-3ft taller since you mention a larger pickup. So if you design for the loft to have some standing room, I think that will more than cover the lift needs. OTOH if the lift is placed so the vehicle parallels the trusses, and the trusses are on 8ft centers, place the lift so the vehicle raises between the trusses and your minimum wall requirement drops off some.

 

[supermoose]

Thanks for all the replies so far. I can try to sketch it out early next week as I'm slammed with a work event now.

The area it will be built is uphill from the house. I believe the height would be grade to the top of the structure and not relative to the house. Even if it were relative to the house, I'd have to dig deep and that would present a whole world of other issues with water, etc.

I'll take a further look at your replies when I have time and then work on getting a sketch together. Obviously want to do this right the first time and not wish I had done something differently.

 

[dcg9381]

I was also now looking into steel buildings. Any better/worse? Obviously cost of materials would play into this but I'd presume steel would have more longevity than wood.

Red iron has big advantages for a loft. You don't need trusses and you get maximum clearance between floor and roof deck. You can basically loft with a mezzanine after the fact. I have a 16' eve on a red iron building, 2 stories is "possible" but understand that you're going to eat about 1' on the structure of a 2nd floor. If I were doing it again, I'd do 18' eves... It's cheaper to go "up" than it is to go out here.

If you want a loft in a pole barn, you really have to design for that structure, just like a two story house. Up north I it's hard for me to find a "red iron" contractor, I assume because pole barns are are substantially less expensive in that location. When you start adding "2nd floors" pole barn price will rise.

We are on 100% water collection. A roof with a single pitch keeps it simple (may not be the aesthetic you're looking for). Don't underestimate how much water a roof can produce with 1-2" of rain an hour. Design your gutters and downspouts for appropriate volume.

 

[HoosierMark]

At my cabin i use one of those 250/300 gallon cubes for water. You could refill as needed if you had a second one or let gutters refill it. Just put a drain in so when it overflows it does not create a mess.

 

[theoldwizard1]

4. As far as rainwater collection goes, there are location-specific rules to that. You'll need to check with the AHJ for your area. At the very least, I'd plan on chlorinating it to minimize the chance of any bacterial growths.

Pre-chlorination, I would want 2 stages of filtration.

 

[supermoose]

Finally had time to sketch out the property. It is obviously not to scale so I'm sorry about that.

Behind the house, there exists an asphalt (not concrete) pad that is roughly 20x60 with a wall behind it and on either side. The properly slopes down to the house and the area behind the wall is relatively flat (needs to be cleared of scrub and downed trees. There is about 20 feet in width between that side wall and the existing car port which I plan to use as access to the proposed garage.

Originally, I had planned to run the building with the 40 foot length parallel to the asphalt pad but after talking to the excavator, I think running it perpendicular might be the better call. There is a power pole that runs power to the house (not on the sketch) near the front left corner of the existing asphalt pad (wouldn't interfere with the building).

Looking at the rear lot line, it would be ~30 degrees North East.

I'm still bouncing between whether to seriously consider a steel structure rather than a pole barn. If I were to go the pole barn route, I wonder if I could save a few bucks by building the loft myself. I don't think that'd be beyond my skill level to construct if I knew exactly what I needed to do. The advantage to the steel building would be I could suspend the loft from the ceiling rather than posts on the ground and not have to worry about it interfering with things on the ground level. The only catch would be access inside (stairs and how much room it kills).

 

[jives]

I think I missed your location, but local preferences may help you decide on red iron, galvanized pre-fab, or pole barn. As for building it yourself, you may need to reconsider. It is not the technical skill that may be challenge, but the shear size. Raising poles and trusses, climbing around 20' in the air, getting OSB and roof panes up.

Couple of other thoughts. We have an Amish built pole barn, 32 x 42 x 14, with scissor trusses. A cupola, porch, French style man door, carriage style garage doors with transom lights, and lots of windows. Looks great, fits in with the house, lots of compliments when it was being built (and after). But all those windows are a tradeoff. The ambient light can be a pain, creating shadows, bright spots, and collect all sorts of crud. Also, they take up a lot of valuable wall space. We would not change a thing, but if my next garage is away from the house, it will be a bit more plain.

 

[supermoose]

I think I missed your location, but local preferences may help you decide on red iron, galvanized pre-fab, or pole barn. As for building it yourself, you may need to reconsider. It is not the technical skill that may be challenge, but the shear size. Raising poles and trusses, climbing around 20' in the air, getting OSB and roof panes up.

Couple of other thoughts. We have an Amish built pole barn, 32 x 42 x 14, with scissor trusses. A cupola, porch, French style man door, carriage style garage doors with transom lights, and lots of windows. Looks great, fits in with the house, lots of compliments when it was being built (and after). But all those windows are a tradeoff. The ambient light can be a pain, creating shadows, bright spots, and collect all sorts of crud. Also, they take up a lot of valuable wall space. We would not change a thing, but if my next garage is away from the house, it will be a bit more plain.

I'm in PA. Sorry, I wasn't clear on the building it myself part. I meant that for the loft or mezzanine. Not the actual structure itself. That's beyond my skill and desire.

Appreciate the feedback on the windows. Helpful things to consider.