LP Powered Whole Home Generator

[jade97]

It did come with a surge protector and I believe 2 Load shedding devices. I only have one heat pump.

 

[ericm]

my point is more that most generator contractors won't install a generator that can't run your calculated loads unless you have a way to load-shed (or upsize until you don't need to).

In some places like the CA county I live in, code requires automatic load sheds if the total load of everything is more than the generator puts out.

400A is nice!

Friend of mine has a nice house in the Sierras with 400a service. The generator installer sold him a 26kw unit which he thought was great until he had an 8 day outage and ran out of propane.

 

[My Old Tools]

These 4 cylinder water cooled Mitsubishi motors are really economical to run. Mine just idles along running a 3800sf house with geothermal heat pump. I have a 500 gallon propane tank buried, dedicated to the genny.

 

[theoldwizard1]

In some places like the CA county I live in, code requires automatic load sheds if the total load of everything is more than the generator puts out.

This is common.

There is a way around this. If high load items are tapped off the PoCo feed BEFORE the automatic transfer switch, the load shed is not required. Of course, then you can not run you A/C or heat pump off of the generator.

 

[larry4406]

Here we are required to make sure the automatic standby generator can handle all of the connected load without manual intervention. Usually this results in cherry picked loads segregated into a separate panel and load shed modules.

Last generator I was involved with was a 22 kw Generac. House is 400A with two 200A panels. One of the 200A panels is the generator panel (other goes dark). The generator panel had all of the 4 AC units on load shed set in priority as well as a load shed on the car charger.

 

[gungatim]

I'll have to send pictures of the piping. Between the regulator and the generator, they installed a 2-3ft section of 2" pipe, which I believe is to have an extra volume of gas available for when the unit starts up. The only valves are shut off at the tank, before the regulator at the house and the solenoid valve in the generator.

This was installed in March 2018, we've had multiple outages and this was the first time I experienced this issue.

I have not checked the pressure since this occured.

One thing I just thought of but didn't check out...my tank is in ground and the storm had torrential down pours. Maybe the shroud around the fill port and tank regulator was filled with rain water and couldn't vent?

You should have an extension tube screwed on to that regulator to keep that from happening. They are threaded for that very reason. I'm surprised your original went bad, they typically last for decades. Unless they are improperly installed and get water in them.

 

[Firebrick43]

Friend of mine has a nice house in the Sierras with 400a service. The generator installer sold him a 26kw unit which he thought was great until he had an 8 day outage and ran out of propane.

Does your friend run out of gas in his car often? I fail to see what his failing to check the fuel gage has anything to do with his satisfaction of the installer or the bill of goods sold to him?

 

[u3b3rg33k]

Does your friend run out of gas in his car often? I fail to see what his failing to check the fuel gage has anything to do with his satisfaction of the installer or the bill of goods sold to him?

it takes a LOT of LP to run a genny 24/7. After a week long outage, the local fuel supplier is probably pretty backed up trying to service everyone who is calling at once for a refill.

 

[ericm]

Does your friend run out of gas in his car often? I fail to see what his failing to check the fuel gage has anything to do with his satisfaction of the installer or the bill of goods sold to him?

If you're going to go out of your way to be a jerk, I don't need to see it. Bye!

 

[Firebrick43]

it takes a LOT of LP to run a genny 24/7. After a week long outage, the local fuel supplier is probably pretty backed up trying to service everyone who is calling at once for a refill.

Yes I know they use a lot of fuel, I can plainly see a generator being used if there is a monitor on it.

At least in our company I know of no time a delivery was or able to be made in time if the customer called it in @20 percent even when it was -20 degrees out.

Only 2% of “out of gas” is due to failure from a gauge or similar malfunction in this age of monitored tanks.

98% is will call customers the call it in when they are on fumes or already have run out because they don’t pay attention.

 

[Firebrick43]

If you're going to go out of your way to be a jerk, I don't need to see it. Bye!

Many across the world and our country would feel absolutely blessed to have the $15,000 plus to install such of a generator and live without grid power for 8 days straight and it not affect their way of life in any significant way.

He could have tracked his LPG usage and adjusted the run time of his appliances but obviously didn’t.

I didn’t even resort to name calling while pointing out the entitlement of your friend.

 

[jade97]

Took me 5 years to need a refill and we've had many outages, with the longest being 5 days.

The turbo 4 cyl runs at 1800 rpm vs the non turbo at 3600 rpm

 

[Firebrick43]

Took me 5 years to need a refill and we've had many outages, with the longest being 5 days.

The turbo 4 cyl runs at 1800 rpm vs the non turbo at 3600 rpm

That is pretty typical usage. We had a customer last summer who’s area was hit by a derecho and out for 7 days immediately following her summer fill.

She has a pool heater and spa heater plus all gas tankless water heater so she uses way above average in summer gas use.

Running her 14kw generac all week plus the pool heaters resulted in her using 210 gallons or half of here tank.

 

[My Old Tools]

The bigger problem with multi-day outages is that people don't check the oil. A car running 60mph for 7 straight days is 10,080 miles. A loaded genny is likely running faster than that. It should be shutdown and checked every couple of days.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

The bigger problem with multi-day outages is that people don't check the oil. A car running 60mph for 7 straight days is 10,080 miles. A loaded genny is likely running faster than that. It should be shutdown and checked every couple of days.

Another reason to use factory brand (or better) oil filters and synthetic oil.

I just went through a 5 day outage and once the utility power was restored I immediately changed my oil and filter on my KOHLER………. I always use AMSOIL 100% synthetic oil.

 

[fitter30]

38 kw Generac

• LP Fuel Consumption @ 50% Load 2.9 gallons/hr
• LP Fuel Consumption @ 100% Load 5.2 gallons/hr
• Rated Amps 132 Amps

Would want to know your location, size of lp tank,pipe size,length of pipe from tank to generator and brand, model, orifice size regulator?

 

[theoldwizard1]

Here we are required to make sure the automatic standby generator can handle all of the connected load without manual intervention. Usually this results in cherry picked loads segregated into a separate panel and/or load shed modules.

I think this is pretty common, but it depends on your local electrical codes/inspectors.

Last generator I was involved with was a 22 kw Generac. House is 400A with two 200A panels. One of the 200A panels is the generator panel (other goes dark during generator operation). The generator panel had all of the 4 AC units on load shed set in priority as well as a load shed on the car charger.

Auto load shedding device can be very expensive !

I would put my "heavy" loads on a separate panel NOT directly connected to the generator (i.e. fed directly from the PoCo). A DPDT switch could change the feed to this panel from PoCo to the generator and still meet the "no manual intervention" WITHOUT the costly auto load shedding.

 

[theoldwizard1]

At least in our company I know of no time a delivery was or able to be made in time if the customer called it in @20 percent even when it was -20 degrees out.

You might pay a premium for Sunday/holiday delivery.

 

[Sumboodie]

Looks like an old 4g52 forklift engine. Mine early 90s Mitsibitchi forklift has that. Around 75hp on the propane.

 

[Firebrick43]

You might pay a premium for Sunday/holiday delivery

If its called in a 20 percent there will be enough time for a delivery after the weekend or holiday.

It might incur a small "off route day" fee if the customer calls on a Monday afternoon and his day is Monday. It would be a whole week for a normal route day

If the customer doesn't call until they are on fumes or out and its a weekend or middle of the night then yes, they will incur a 300 dollar fee. The driver gets half on top of his hourly rate to compensate for ruining his free time.

About half of the customers are ecstatic to pay the fee to get gas to cover their mistake.

Another 45 percent decide to make due until the weekend is over.

5 percent feel entitled and want the gas now with no off hours fee.
They refuse the reality that they didn't pay attention to their tanks level and call it in at 20 percent in accordance to the customer agreement they signed.

Do they think propane companies are Burger King?

 

[mike93lx]

Friend of mine has a nice house in the Sierras with 400a service. The generator installer sold him a 26kw unit which he thought was great until he had an 8 day outage and ran out of propane.

Did he let it run constantly or manage run time?

 

[Sumboodie]

If its called in a 20 percent there will be enough time for a delivery after the weekend or holiday.

It might incur a small "off route day" fee if the customer calls on a Monday afternoon and his day is Monday. It would be a whole week for a normal route day

If the customer doesn't call until they are on fumes or out and its a weekend or middle of the night then yes, they will incur a 300 dollar fee. The driver gets half on top of his hourly rate to compensate for ruining his free time.

About half of the customers are ecstatic to pay the fee to get gas to cover their mistake.

Another 45 percent decide to make due until the weekend is over.

5 percent feel entitled and want the gas now with no off hours fee.
They refuse the reality that they didn't pay attention to their tanks level and call it in at 20 percent in accordance to the customer agreement they signed.

Do they think propane companies are Burger King?

I deal with it with firewood.
Have had people order wood and get pissed it wasn't there that day.. like within an hour.
Not even joking.
Sorry guy, but I'm a couple weeks out on orders.

 

[ericm]

Did he let it run constantly or manage run time?

He let it run until he saw he was getting low and realized that the outage was going to be longer than expected and propane wasn't going to get delivered any time soon. Then he quit running it 24/7. I think it was his first outage with the generator.

 

[jade97]

Picture of the panels & TX

 

[mm08822]

Managing run time is well worth the effort. Obviously, it depends on time of year and weather.

I know of a snowbird who wasn't home (up north) and found their full 2,000 gallon tank empty upon their return. They winterize their home too.

Unloaded generators use about 60% of the full load consumption!

 

[mike93lx]

Managing run time is well worth the effort. Obviously, it depends on time of year and weather.

I know of a snowbird who wasn't home (up north) and found their full 2,000 gallon tank empty upon their return. They winterize their home too.

Unloaded generators use about 60% of the full load consumption!

****. Imagine showing up for the season to find out you have a $6k propane bill you weren't expecting?

 

[mm08822]

And the flip of a switch could could have prevented that.

 

[moab11]

Burning that much fuel, either there was a furnace left on, or the generator ran for a ridiculous amount of time. Still would definitely **** to come back to as well as the bill to refill.

 

[jade97]

New issue.....

After heavy downpours today, the generator would pop, like back firing, resulting in the lights flickering, etc.

I 'think' I traced the issue to the propane tank shroud filling with covering the fill assembly at the tank (see photo).

Since I pumped the water out, below the level of the valve, it doesn't appear to be backfiring any more. Is the some type of vent or something on the valve assembly causing this issue?

I'm guessing I need to dig down and install a drain pipe in the plastic shroud assembly?

 

[jade97]

New issue.....

After heavy downpours today, the generator would pop, like back firing, resulting in the lights flickering, etc.

I 'think' I traced the issue to the propane tank shroud filling with covering the fill assembly at the tank (see photo).

Since I pumped the water out, below the level of the valve, it doesn't appear to be backfiring any more. Is the some type of vent or something on the valve assembly causing this issue?

I'm guessing I need to dig down and install a drain pipe in the plastic shroud assembly?

This is exactly what the issue is. After pumping out the shroud, the issue stopped. A half hour later, it started doing it again....the water level in the shroud was over the valve assembly again. I pumped it down again & it stopped.

 

[Firebrick43]

The vents purpose is two fold.

One is to allow the back side of the diaphragm to move freely and the second is to direct gas if the diaphragm pops a hole in it.

If the regulator has regularly been submerged the diaphragm spring may have become rusted or mud and **** gotten in that cavity and cause issues.

This isn't the exact model of regulator you have at the tank but they are all very similar and work on the same principal. Yours appears to be a Rego LV3403TR9 but I cant read it from the picture




You really should have drainage to the bottom level of the tank, so it doesn't float out of the ground if empty and to keep corrosion at bay.

We always have the contractor that digs our holes put tile and sand to keep the tank dry.

While its not good for corrosion and such, the valve assembly/riser on the tank (industry calls that style a multivalve) itself being under water shouldn't matter. The tank is under pressure 50-150 psi pressure depending on temp and water cant get into the tank. If there was a leak it would leave bubbles. The relief valve springs (Valve with rubber cap) are also known to rust over time and when they do they vent the tank rapidly, although it can take years but i have never seen a tank with water up in the riser.

Its dark in the last pic, was the regulator under water there?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

yikes! thats some poor drainage.... id get a sump pump in there stat!

 

[mm08822]

Drill a 1/8" hole at each corner of the riser box near ground level for drainage.

Pull the regulator up as high as it can go within the confines of the riser box so its vent is as high as possible.

I don't think there is anything thing else in the riser that will affect output delivery pressure.

Check the weep holes annually.

 

[jade97]

The regulator is up above the water level by a few inches and I don't see any bubbles.

I just baled it out again (I did shut the unit down from about 1030pm-0430am. The problem I had with that was the septic pump was off and I guess the bottom tank, by the sand mound was over full, so leaving the gen off is not a good idea either.

This *****, especially when I'm supposed to go somewhere for work today. Looks like I'm not going.

 

[jade97]

yikes! thats some poor drainage.... id get a sump pump in there stat!

Is it safe to throw an electric sump pump in the riser?

 

[jade97]

5-10 minutes after bailing the water out, it seems to have stopped popping.

 

[jade97]

Got the trench mostly dug. Need to go get PVC, fittings, and some pea gravel. Glad my property is sloped.

 

[mike93lx]

Got the trench mostly dug. Need to go get PVC, fittings, and some pea gravel. Glad my property is sloped.

I'd dig a little deeper and run a pipe to day light, skipping gravel.

 

[Firebrick43]

5-10 minutes after bailing the water out, it seems to have stopped popping.

I think this is coincidence. If the regulator is above the water there should be nothing that can affect the pressure delivery. Still needs daylight drain 4' down for corrosion protection to prolong the life of that 10k tanks

 

[larry4406]

Still needs daylight drain 4' down for corrosion protection to prolong the life of that 10k tanks

At the day job I have been involved with many 1000 gallon tank installations, and the propane company never installed a drainage system.

They do bed the tank in with sand and they install a cathode protection system.

They also partially fill the tank at install to ensure it won’t float out of the ground.