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Mac closing Sabina Plant

autoace

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Fantastic, more import tools from Asia, more US citizens out of work. Keep buying them imports.:thumbup:

See that is just it, most all of us did buy MAC USA tools, just like we all bought USA Vise Grips, and the corporate moved overseas anyway. How did it help to buy USA, when they are all going anyway? future warranty will not be USA tools.

I agree with you, I just don't think it matters what we buy soo much anymore, the companies will do what they want to do period.
 
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Hiball

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See that is just it, most all of us did buy MAC USA tools, just like we all bought USA Vise Grips, and the corporate moved overseas anyway. How did it help to buy USA, when they are all going anyway? future warranty will not be USA tools.

I agree with you, I just don't think it matters what we buy soo much anymore, the companies will do what they want to do period.

Nah.. Its your fault. You Chinese lover....... LOL
 

mcdtommy23

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"41 of the 56 employees have a starting date that goes back at least 30 years."

So I guess Mac will give these 41 people a pension????

In a few years, the Harbor Freight truck will be pulling up at garages everywhere.

Chris

No pension, unemployment sure. As for the Harbor Freight truck it does exist- it says MAC on the side:lol_hitti:lol_hitti
 

t100

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denial isn't gonna solve anything. obviously everybody is upset about the plant closing, but what did you or could you do about it? yes, consumers have the power, but untill they all bunched up acting as one, their power means nothing.

I emailed the Snap On 6 months ago about putting the Snap ON name on chinese tools, what happened so far? nothing. I've not yet spent a penny on new Snap On tools in my life, the company is still going strong.

I called my congressman for the Fed's plan to move the local Sallie Mae office to D.C.(800 jobs), but other than that, there isn't much else I could do.

question is, what you can do to stop that other than making some noise on the internet.
 

autoace

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this is what the result of buying imports is.. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.. if the corporate bastards saw that people didnt want chiwanese junk and sales for those tools were subpar,they would sure as hell make sure that their tools were clearly marked u.s.a

Not true, I have dealt up close and personal with Cornwell tools, bottom line is profit, regardless of successful current sales. If a million Americans buy their USA tools, and there is no need to go overseas, the companies still will, to try to make a better profit off the same amount of customers, and hope we don't care. The later part is what will get them, why buy "designer" imports, when there is already a flood of them? No reason.............

i.e.

The MAC or whatever truck pulls in, selling import tools at twice the price or more of GearWrench, will you buy the MAC over the GearWrench? Not once the MAC etc.. tools are non-USA.................they will learn the hard way, like going out of business.
 

autoace

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You guys miss the big picture, The reason "people in this country show a willingness to buy import tools" IS because this corporations that used to proudly build things in America have outsourced there products to maximize there profits and it has completely flooded the market to a point where 80% (Might be a low figure) of the things we buy are imported and made with slave labor. When you stand back and look at general merchandise and the percentage of which are imported, tools are a such a small section. We are screwed People!!!

What he said!
 

t100

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He'll care if he needs to sell them

first, mechanics don't normally sell tool for a living, they use them.

second, ask any tool truck dealer, they will sell whatever the customer wants to buy.

tell me I'm wrong.
 

Mickey O

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See that is just it, most all of us did buy MAC USA tools, just like we all bought USA Vise Grips, and the corporate moved overseas anyway. How did it help to buy USA, when they are all going anyway? future warranty will not be USA tools.

I agree with you, I just don't think it matters what we buy soo much anymore, the companies will do what they want to do period.

Things will change when enough people are out of work and inflation hits but in the mean time the less people that buy that **** and purchase quality US produced good the better it will be, it's easier to ramp up production than to open a new plant.
 

Hiball

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first, mechanics don't normally sell tool for a living, they use them.

second, ask any tool truck dealer, they will sell whatever the customer wants to buy.

tell me I'm wrong.

He Cant, He also cant say that there isnt any Mechanics that dont use Gear Wrench tools to put food on there familes table.
 

X1 Mike

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Uhh.. How many American companies produce Plasma Tv's? What do you think the percentage is on American made products vs. Imports?

Bub.

That's the point American industry got out of the television biz long ago because they could not compete economically, consumers wanted a cheaper product. See where this is going?


See that is just it, most all of us did buy MAC USA tools, just like we all bought USA Vise Grips, and the corporate moved overseas anyway. How did it help to buy USA, when they are all going anyway? future warranty will not be USA tools.

I agree with you, I just don't think it matters what we buy soo much anymore, the companies will do what they want to do period.

In the simplest terms even though some were still buying US made more were buying Chinese made. Lets say 20 years ago Vise-Grip had 75% of the locking pliers market. Fast forward and they are constantly losing market share and profits are down what do they do? Find a way to get their prices in line with some of the imports and increase profits. Everyone loves to paint corporations as evil, that is simplistic and wrong.
 

X1 Mike

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first, mechanics don't normally sell tool for a living, they use them.

second, ask any tool truck dealer, they will sell whatever the customer wants to buy.
tell me I'm wrong.

WTF, do t100 and I agree on something? :headscrat
 

t100

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let me just ask just this question:

if your favorite tool truck dealer carries non-U.S. made tools, do you still buy tools from him/her?

if your answer is NO. you are my hero. if the answer is YES, you are no batter man than the one buys Stanley at Wal-Mart.

try ask your Snap On dealer don't sell anything but U.S. made tools, see what he's reaction is and report back to us.
 

ourkid2000

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We all know what's going on here.........

We really need to quit talking about it because it's quite negative for everyone. I'm just going to continue doing what I've been doing for years and that's buying Canadian & USA made stuff whenever I can.

If I can't get that stuff, I'll settle for less but not often. At least I know I'm doing my part.
 

autoace

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That's the point American industry got out of the television biz long ago because they could not compete economically, consumers wanted a cheaper product. See where this is going?




In the simplest terms even though some were still buying US made more were buying Chinese made. Lets say 20 years ago Vise-Grip had 75% of the locking pliers market. Fast forward and they are constantly losing market share and profits are down what do they do? Find a way to get their prices in line with some of the imports and increase profits. Everyone loves to paint corporations as evil, that is simplistic and wrong.

Vise grip did not lower their prices to the retail segment, they just switched to overseas, to make more at the same price point, I don't know of any mechanic that didn't buy USA Vise Grip over cheaper 'pseudo" vise grips.
 

Hiball

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In the simplest terms even though some were still buying US made more were buying Chinese made. Lets say 20 years ago Vise-Grip had 75% of the locking pliers market. Fast forward and they are constantly losing market share and profits are down what do they do? Find a way to get their prices in line with some of the imports and increase profits. Everyone loves to paint corporations as evil, that is simplistic and wrong.

How does Import made vice grips from 20 years ago translate into "Vise Grip" the company offshoring there original USA design? They not only got there prices inline with the imports they joined hands and took american jobs with it.
 

Mickey O

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first, mechanics don't normally sell tool for a living, they use them.

second, ask any tool truck dealer, they will sell whatever the customer wants to buy.

tell me I'm wrong.

No they sell them in a bad economy to pay the mortgage and feed their family or after they retire or change careers as evidenced by the many complete sets for sale on craig's lists across the country.

I find it hard to believe that any mechanic isn't concerned about the country of origin, most I know are (if they're not they should be before it's too late). It's hard to believe a mechanic would pay top dollar for a Chinese hammer from Snap On, I'd love to know how those Chinese hammers are selling.

A truck dealer can only sell what he can get and the list is dwindling. If I had to choose between Chinese Snap On or Chinese Harbor Freight (which would never really happen even if Snap On went completely Asian) I'd choose the Harbor Freight, but I'd buy Craftsman, provided they were still made in the USA, over both of them.
 

autoace

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Things will change when enough people are out of work and inflation hits but in the mean time the less people that buy that **** and purchase quality US produced good the better it will be, it's easier to ramp up production than to open a new plant.

It is already changing, I buy nothing these days, can't afford it, and real cheap won't do, so I make do with what I have, unless it is absolutely necessary to buy something. It may not be good for the "economy", but I don't think I am in the boat alone, when I say, I cannot buy like I used to.

My customer base is losing jobs, and houses, they don't have much money.........therefore I have less money...................hence my tool dealer doesn't get the sales....................hence anything excess is not purchased.........ultimately alot of manufacturers will go out of business, the supply bubble will exceed customers spending ability. Things have ways of leveling themselves.
 

Hiball

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We all know what's going on here.........

We really need to quit talking about it because it's quite negative for everyone. I'm just going to continue doing what I've been doing for years and that's buying Canadian & USA made stuff whenever I can.

If I can't get that stuff, I'll settle for less but not often. At least I know I'm doing my part.

I agree with you, I try to do my part by buying from Tool companies that support american jobs, my locally owned grocery stores, Locally owned Hardware stores (dissapearing) but i when it comes to everyday goods minus cleaning supplies its nearly impossible and i challenge anyone here to dip into there closet or open there computer up.
 

X1 Mike

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Ok ok I give, you guys are right us consumers are powerless against big evil corporations. We only buy what they tell us to buy, thank you for showing me the error of my ways. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
 

Mickey O

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I agree with you, I try to do my part by buying from Tool companies that support american jobs, my locally owned grocery stores, Locally owned Hardware stores (dissapearing) but i when it comes to everyday goods minus cleaning supplies its nearly impossible and i challenge anyone here to dip into there closet or open there computer up.


Boy do I miss those Hardware stores and the competent people that that worked at them. We had an Independent Hardware store that carried just about anything you could think of, from auto parts and quality tools to hydraulic jack rebuild kits, even had motorcycle tubes and on the slim chance they didn't have what you needed the guy there could tell you where to get it. Now I go into the store, I've got plenty people asking if they can help me but don't know what an allen head cap screw is. Recently I was looking for a manual hand nibbler, I went to Home Depot, Menards and Lowes, not a one knew what it was even after I drew a picture of one for them.
 
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Hiball

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Boy do I miss those Hardware stores and the competent people that that worked at them. We had an Independent Hardware store that carried just about anything you could think of, from auto parts and quality tools to hydraulic jack rebuild kits, even had motorcycle tubes and on the slim chance they didn't have what you needed the guy there could tell you where to get it. Now I go into the store, I've got plenty people asking if they can help me but don't know what an allen head cap screw is. Recently I was looking for a manual hand nibbler, I went to Home Depot, Menards and Lowes, not a one knew what it was even after I drew a picture of one for them.

Yep, and i dont look for it to get much better. I actually went to a auction recently and bought a bunch of hardware, Nails, Doors and a few tools for pennies on the dollar and was depressed when i paid my ticket because i knew i would never be able to shop there again.
 

t100

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I find it hard to believe that any mechanic isn't concerned about the country of origin, most I know are (if they're not they should be before it's too late). It's hard to believe a mechanic would pay top dollar for a Chinese hammer from Snap On, I'd love to know how those Chinese hammers are selling.

I felt the same way, till I started at my school. I'm really picky at buying tools, i dont buy anything without research, even with my student discount.

many my classmates are freshmen mechanics with just 2-3 years under their belts. many of them feel offended when I bitching about HF are mostly junks. a $50 per week tool payment is a lot for them, even they are wrenching for living.

the few seasoned mechanics I talked to, they didn't even know that many tools are now outsourced to overseas.

again, I don't believe those professional marketing research companies got this wrong, the MAJORITY of the mechanics just care about if their tools can get the job done.

it's a sad fact, but, it's a free market, if MAC falls, their is the chance for a new company to come up with all American made tools to be a major player. that's the capitalism at its best. it only takes time.
 

Toolhorder

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Half the techs in my dealership have HF tools in their toolboxes. I don't have hardly anything non USA except for gearwrenches.
 

MattT

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See that is just it, most all of us did buy MAC USA tools, just like we all bought USA Vise Grips, and the corporate moved overseas anyway. How did it help to buy USA, when they are all going anyway? future warranty will not be USA tools.

I agree with you, I just don't think it matters what we buy soo much anymore, the companies will do what they want to do period.

Call them up 1-800-MAC-TOOLS and let them know you were happy to buy their American made products but there's no way in hades you'll pay inflated prices for chiwanese tools. If enough folks call they might get the message.
 

Aberdale

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American made tool companies are in a fight for survival. They have to make a choice. Either keep the manufacturing here, and convince us that the higher priced tool is somehow better than the identical, lower priced import; or move manufacturing overseas to level the playing field by achieving cost parity.

Many tool brands are becoming sellers, marketers, and distributors; not manufacturers. Craftsman, S-K, Irwin/Vice Grip, and now MAC come to mind. They have had to do this to survive. I believe most tool brands (including our beloved Snap-On) will eventually end up this way, or end up going out of business altogether.

If you look at other industries, (automotive, appliances, tractors, electronics, etc.), they are all manufactured globally, with some products made here, while others are made in Asia, Europe, and South America. It stands to reason that for tool brands the same is happening. Some SO tools will be made here, some in EU, and some in Asia, but they will still be branded SO, and will carry the same warranty regardless of where it is manufactured.

Anyone who buys only "Made in USA" products in an attempt to save jobs is making a noble effort, but is misguided. It's just not going to happen. The only thing that will save and grow American manufacturing jobs is being able to have competitive manufacturing and distribution cost structure period. End of story. America used to be able to level this playing field by setting tariffs on imports. But with NAFTA and all the trade agreements we have with China it is now more complicated. Not to mention many "American" companies manufacture overseas, so are they domestic or imported?

Other things that may help level the playing field are increases in the standard of living for the Chinese, lower pay and benefits for workers here, and increases in shipping costs that would negate any labor cost savings. Or how about reducing OSHA and EPA requirements to reduce manufacturing costs and allow certain processes (chrome plating comes to mind), to return to the US. If any of these things happen, it probably won't be in our lifetimes.

Otherwise, enjoy your quality tools regardless of where they come from. It's not so much the fault of the Chinese for competing unfairly, its more the fault of the American Federal Government creating conditions that make it impossible for manufacturers to compete globally. American made tools are nice, but it's better to own a quality import than no tool at all.

I don't know the details of the MAC Sabina plant closure, or where their tools will be manufactured, or by whom, but if they sell a quality product, with good distribution, with a good warranty, then I will consider them.

Dale
 

quneur

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Uhh.. How many American companies produce Plasma Tv's? What do you think the percentage is on American made products vs. Imports?

Bub.

I believe the last US TV maker was Magnavox back in the 90's. Back then everyone went with Japanese, ie. Sony, Panasonic, etc. Now those are higher priced units and Chinese LG & company are pricing them out.

As for tools, I look at it as similar to the gun industry. There are cheap guns made in Russia, Brazil and Turkey but I have a hard time trusting my health to them. All it takes is one failure. I'm finding that I'm purchasing only used USA made as I can't seem to spend my limited funds on untested Chinese stuff. My toolbox is full of mis-matched mostly old USA made tools :wtf:

America used to be able to level this playing field by setting tariffs on imports.
Not quite. Every country has their tariffs on imports. A good example is the Japanese. American car manufacturers were once heavily taxed. Same with American textiles. It's still very rare to see anything manufactured in the USA there.

its more the fault of the American Federal Government creating conditions that make it impossible for manufacturers to compete globally.
Those guidelines you mentioned, OSHA, EPA etc. are the result of being in a nation with a high quality of life. Compared with the Chinese, I would much rather live here than in China and be with alittle less.

What everyone fails to mention are the billions of people who are now able to afford simple tools and who once American tool makers are now supplying.
 

stricht8

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Whether it is a futile and noble effort to buy US made tools is irrelevant to me. I refuse to follow the herd and buy all the China garbage. I will do my best to keep the tools that are important to me US or EU made. I really just don't enjoy using Chinese junk tools even if they get the job done. The day I drive a Toyota is the day I die.
 

Yojinbo

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Hate to see this kind of thing. I wonder if we all did this; but not only by buying foreign tools.

How many of us have a pension, 401k, Roth, Keogh, etc? How many of those pension fund managers are demanding double-digit growth from manufacturing companies? How many fund managers care as much about North American jobs as they do about profit %?

These CEOs and CFOs are very much influenced by the big investors and the fund managers. When those people say "Cut mfg costs or we will lower your rating until you do" - it happens.

I think the (relative) high cost of US labor, government interference and greedy fund managers are a perfect storm that is wrecking company after company.

The Swiss, you know, used to (and may still) protect national jobs like they do gold. No Swiss employer casually moves jobs away without suffering enough penalties to make that move unprofitable.
 

sberry

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I bought 3 number 2 Phillips screwdrivers yesterday off the shelf at a Sears for 99 cents a piece, anyone think that sale was competing with Mac?
I had to look, says Stanely, made in USA with global materials.
 
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Mickey O

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Anyone who buys only "Made in USA" products in an attempt to save jobs is making a noble effort, but is misguided. It's just not going to happen. The only thing that will save and grow American manufacturing jobs is being able to have competitive manufacturing and distribution cost structure period. End of story. America used to be able to level this playing field by setting tariffs on imports. But with NAFTA and all the trade agreements we have with China it is now more complicated. Not to mention many "American" companies manufacture overseas, so are they domestic or imported?
Dale

Really, so if I and another 300 million US citizens did the same thing it would have no impact? The US can't compete because of the unethical way the competition is playing and a bunch of greedy consumers, that won't last, the longer they manipulate the monetary system the bigger inflation will be then those inferior Asian products won't be such a "bargain".
 

t100

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you have to understand how corporate America works. my mom and dad met at work after they graduated college, they only had one job at the same place in their entire life, retired after 38 years. now, I don't know one person my age has less than 3 jobs.

manufacturing companies used to be run by engineers and hospitals used to be run by Medical doctors. now they are run by PhD's, MBA's and statisticians. CEO's of publicly traded companies live and die by one thing, the quarterly report. their company can lose billions of dollars and still business, but missing a deadline filing the quarterly report, the SEC can shut it down in a day.

these CEO's have one job and one job only, to do everything possible to get their stock value as high as possible, therefore, they can get a job offer at an even larger company with an even larger pay. that, largely depends on their quarterly report, better the number, better the stock price(that's in general). most of the CEO's income are from the stock options.

do you blame Chinese for this??

my wife's company is laying off 5,500 employees, yet, the CEO just got a pay raise this very month to 16.4 million dollars a year. is it fair? but they just did.
 
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Hawk321

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Sorry to hear that, same here with our tool companies (Wera).
It's not only the tool buisness, in germany Samsung took all subventions from our goverment after the subvention were stopped, samsung has left the country...same with nokia.

There should be a "don't sell your **** here" law....I promise you...no company could effort it to loose the us or german market.

I tried to live without those brands...not possible...tried to avoid made in china **** and products from slave labor companies ...not possible. Even toilet paper is made by those companies....
 

Mickey O

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Sorry to hear that, same here with our tool companies (Wera).
It's not only the tool buisness, in germany Samsung took all subventions from our goverment after the subvention were stopped, samsung has left the country...same with nokia.

There should be a "don't sell your **** here" law....I promise you...no company could effort it to loose the us or german market.

I tried to live without those brands...not possible...tried to avoid made in china **** and products from slave labor companies ...not possible. Even toilet paper is made by those companies....

The day I have to use Chinese toilet paper I'll switch to leaves.
 

Toolhorder

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The day I drive a Toyota is the day I die.

What's Toyota have to do with MAC closing a plant? You're an idiot if you think China and Japan are even remotely the same. Typical thread here on GJ. US good, China and Toyota are bad...Every time there is a thread about China one of you soft heads slams Toyota.
 

Mickey O

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What's Toyota have to do with MAC closing a plant? You're an idiot if you think China and Japan are even remotely the same. Typical thread here on GJ. US good, China and Toyota are bad...Every time there is a thread about China one of you soft heads slams Toyota.

Japan started out much the way China is doing now, and don't forget they bombed us, then we taught them a lesson, the way we're headed now we won't be able to teach any one a lesson.
 

SocketDeviler

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Japan started out much the way China is doing now, and don't forget they bombed us, then we taught them a lesson, the way we're headed now we won't be able to teach any one a lesson.

We're in the process of teaching ourselves a lesson but it will be forgotten by most if even considered.

Mickey, I'm genuinely curious, where do you draw the line on purchases of US made and non-US made goods?
 

Toolhorder

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Japan started out much the way China is doing now, and don't forget they bombed us, then we taught them a lesson, the way we're headed now we won't be able to teach any one a lesson.

You're forgetting important points here. Japan isn't a communist nation bend on our demise, they're with us not against us. When that North Korean idiot was test firing missles and they were landing in Japan's waters we were gearing up to defend her. I'm just saying it's apples and oranges not the same thing. If anything Japan wants to be just like us. I went to motorcycle school with a Japanese exchange student. We were asking him what bikes he likes and thinking he would name a Japanese company. Nope he says in broken as it gets english, "harjey davitsin" then laughed like a typical Japanese tourist. He also had an Elvis and drinking obsession which I never got but ok.

Toyota is made here and they employ thousands of American workers. They are far from a Chinese manufacturer.
 

TheGrooveking

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That's the point American industry got out of the television biz long ago because they could not compete economically, consumers wanted a cheaper product. See where this is going?

First off you need to get your facts right, the reason most television manufacturing moved out of the United States was not because they could not compete, far from it. I was the VP/GM for a company who the the primary producer of stamping tools for single sided and double side circuit boards and automation from 1994 to 2000 that was used in the big three TV producers, Thomson Consumer Electronics (RCA, GE, etc.) Philips Consumer Electronics and Zenith Electronics.

First off the biggest hit was that circuit board laminate that was used to make all/most of the circuit boards was fiberglass based. This laminate is produced in mills that are continuous run - 24/7 operations, the main producers were Westinghouse, GE and Glassteel. The biggest single factor for production moving was laminate, which typically constitutes 50 to 65% of the circuit board manufacturing cost.

Now for the longest times there were other laminates, mostly paper based out there but they could not obtain UL approval. This was until a mill in Asia - Pacific rim produced a paper based laminate that succeeded in getting UL approval. Side Note- Fiberglass based laminate is very hard on tooling, it is abrasive so the punches and cutters wear out very fast. This is not a problem with paper based laminate.

So in under a 6 month period Thomson and Philips moved production, to Asia since none of the American laminate mills could convert over fast enough and the Asian mills were already producing. Thomson had union issues that compounded this and they initially outsourced circuit board manufacturing to a Japanese company who had a facility in Mexico.

Philips had just built a new highly automated plant in Tennessee, which only had 1/10th the number of employees their previous manufacturing plant had. The problem was getting this new lower cost laminate into the United States, so it was easier and less costly to move production over to Singapore where they already had plants.

Now remember both Thomson and Philips are not American companies, Thomson was owned by the French government and Philips is a European concern.

Zenith was bought by LG (Lucky Goldstar). Many thought it was to get their tube plant, but the real reason was to buy the hotel & hospital market, which is one of the largest markets out there. Now LG did come in and tour our facility and the weird thing was we were told that we were a critical vendor to them and that nothing would change. Of course 60 days later they called and canceled over $2 million worth of stamping tools. Now during their tour one of our die-makers who was Korean spoke to a few of their guys who we were told were managers. My guy told me they were the managers of the die making and CNC tool programming portion of LG's 1,300 die maker/machinist tool shop that ran 24/7. So for their little lie, I will never buy another LG product, since their manipulation caused me to have to lay off over 30 guys.

As to tools being produced in China and bitching about it you guys are missing a big part of the reason for them to move over there, not just for lower manufacturing costs but for logistic reasons. The largest developing countries in the world are China and India, both of whom are growing extremely fast even when compared to the industrial growth in the US after WWII.

Now this growth is going to need tools, so it is cheaper to to produce tools in Asia and sell them in Asia. Realize that even Ford and the other automakers see Asia and the next great big thing.

Throw in from a producer/vendor standpoint, like McMaster-Carr's attitude as not listing brand in their tool descriptions, to them it doesn't matter as long as they provide their customer with a quality product.

TheGrooveking
 

Mickey O

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
6,153
Location
Chicago, IL
We're in the process of teaching ourselves a lesson but it will be forgotten by most if even considered.

Mickey, I'm genuinely curious, where do you draw the line on purchases of US made and non-US made goods?

I look for USA made on everything I buy except for a few European tools. I have import clothes, sneakers and a TV (the import TV was to replace another import TV that lasted 2 years, my other TV's are the last of the US made ones, one over 25 years old with a great picture). Recently someone sent me a link to a place that sells US made clothes I will buy there. I also buy a lot of stuff used, I'd rather have a 20 year old friction slide US made tool box than a new US General, I couldn't bring myself to buy one of those things if it was $25. The thought of keeping quality US made tools in a crappy Chinese tool box doesn't sit well with me. I'd rather use a cardboard box than a HF tool box, I do use the HF socket holders but only buy them with the 20% off coupon.
 
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