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Machine Tapping

vhol5

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May 24, 2011
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West Texas
Question for you machinists out there.
What is the difference in the taps that are used in machining vs hand taps?
How does the machine just easily and quickly spin the tap without breaking?
 
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larry_g

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oregon
Question for you machinists out there.
What is the difference in the taps that are used in machining vs hand taps?
How does the machine just easily and quickly spin the tap without breaking?
Hand taps are usually 4 flute and more self aligning than a machine tap. The machine tap is usually 2 or three flutes and had geometries that either push or pull the swarf out of the hole. The machinist that is doing the operation probably understands the tap drill size will determine the odds of getting it done correctly. If you only have a 29 piece drill set your not going to have the best of luck making threaded holes. Another big cause of failure in hand tapping is getting the tap started crooked. If tapping with a machine then the tap is being held straight reducing that cause of failure.

I also believe that on average that hand taps are of a lesser quality or lower grade material than most machine taps. A lot of the hand taps, especially the $29.95 sets, are carbon steel whereas the the better machine taps are high speed steel or better.

I'd ask the OP, just what machines come to YOUR mind when you ask about machine tapping?

lg
no neat sig line
 
OP
V

vhol5

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Joined
May 24, 2011
Messages
358
Location
West Texas
Hand taps are usually 4 flute and more self aligning than a machine tap. The machine tap is usually 2 or three flutes and had geometries that either push or pull the swarf out of the hole. The machinist that is doing the operation probably understands the tap drill size will determine the odds of getting it done correctly. If you only have a 29 piece drill set your not going to have the best of luck making threaded holes. Another big cause of failure in hand tapping is getting the tap started crooked. If tapping with a machine then the tap is being held straight reducing that cause of failure.

I also believe that on average that hand taps are of a lesser quality or lower grade material than most machine taps. A lot of the hand taps, especially the $29.95 sets, are carbon steel whereas the the better machine taps are high speed steel or better.

I'd ask the OP, just what machines come to YOUR mind when you ask about machine tapping?

lg
no neat sig line
So what specifically comes to mind is when i watch the CNC machine videos doing their thing. They drill and tap like they're going through butter!
 

Firebrick43

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May 12, 2015
Messages
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Location
West central Indiana
Lube helps a lot !
Thanks Mr obvious, first time caller, long time listener..

Stick with spiral HSS taps. They work much better than the carbon steel ones. Carbide is the berries with a stiff spindle/cnc. However they become the devil if you break one off, epecially easy if tapping in a drill press as they are so brittle.
 

Garage Junkie

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Jan 2, 2010
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170
Location
Cleveland, OH
Do you guys have any brand recommendations? When I look on Amazon there are literally thousands of HSS spiral taps and sets of taps. Even if I eliminate the obvious overseas junk and ignore the fake reviews, its still a huge number of choices. When I look on McMaster Carr and Grainger, I'm leary of what to buy because there isn't much in the way of reviews to check. I know Abom79 mentioned a website he buys tooling from, but I would have to look back through a bunch of videos to figure out where he shops.
 

CapriMikeC

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May 31, 2019
Messages
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Location
AZ
Taps are a quite varied these days. At work, we often use form taps (roll taps) in aluminum and stainless steel. We also use cut taps.

A few topics...

... the chamfer/lead on the tap. There are plug, bottom, and modified bottom. Usually expressed as a multiple of thread pitch such as 2-3p. Longer lead means lower effort to run the tap into the hole.

... cut taps, form/roll taps, thread mills, thread hobs.
  • Cut taps are what most folks are familiar with.
  • Form/roll taps have no flutes and create no chips, they are more like a screw with a raised cam lobe which pushes the metal around to create threads. To use these, the drilled hole must be larger than normal. An advantage is being able to run the tap to the bottom of a blind hole without chips building up and jamming. The high friction requires good lubrication.
  • Thread hobs are like end mills but with specific teeth which match the thread. To create threads, they are swept through a helix in the hole with the spindle running at high rpm.
  • Thread mills are like thread hobs but only have a single "thread". They have to be spiraled through a hole several "laps".
... spiral point and spiral flute. Spiral point will push chips in front of the tap which works best with through holes like in plates. Spiral flutes will pull the chips up like a drill bit and work best for blind holes.

Modern CNC's are very precise, very accurate, rigid, and repeat amazingly. Older machines might use synchronous tapping which often requires a tap holder with a little compression/tension spring to help the tap float. Newer machines use rigid tapping where the spindle and the feed axis are precisely controlled.
 

CapriMikeC

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AZ
Brands are difficult to suggest without knowing what your application is. A good place to shop is MSC. They are not a good place to buy from unless you're spending thou$ands per month to get good discounts.
 

Firebrick43

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Do you guys have any brand recommendations? When I look on Amazon there are literally thousands of HSS spiral taps and sets of taps. Even if I eliminate the obvious overseas junk and ignore the fake reviews, its still a huge number of choices. When I look on McMaster Carr and Grainger, I'm leary of what to buy because there isn't much in the way of reviews to check. I know Abom79 mentioned a website he buys tooling from, but I would have to look back through a bunch of videos to figure out where he shops.
Greenfield tap and die and Emuge are my go to's

Caprimike, don't confuse the man with form taps and thread mill/hobs. They are much more advanced and have no place except in production work. Rolled threads used to drive me nuts as the machinist that was under me couldn't feel issue with the thread thru the gage, no matter how many times I showed them the defect by sectioning a hole on the sample saw.
 
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Garage Junkie

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Messages
170
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Cleveland, OH
Well.... in my case I'm more of a general tap breaker. I might need to tap threads 3-4 times per year and I typically break 1-2 taps per year. I own 600 lbs of drill bits, but none of them will match the tap size I'm trying to use. I mostly hand tap, but I have a 1952 Clausing that someday would like to break a tap or two as well if given the opportunity. I'm usually in a hurry even if there is no rush, and I like high quality tools, which I sometimes know how to use. Does that help any?
 

Bigblue&Goldie

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Location
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I don't care about brands, as long as they're a name brand and HSS or better. I power tap on my Bridgeport and it's incredibly satisfying! I just used a YG-1 spiral tap I got on Amazon and it was awesome for $15 shipped. I have some other YG-1 tooling and it's been great also. As others have said, there are taps that push chips for through holes and taps that extract threads for blind holes. Once you power tap on a mill, you'll never want to do it any other way.
 

larry_g

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CapriMikeC

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I've had good experience with Greenfield, OSG, Emuge, Balax, Guhring, Hertel. Be mindful of some of the coatings being incompatible with your application.

Firebrick, his original post was asking how the fancy machines do it all so smoothly. I figured some extra might shed light on a broad field.

For impressive speed, check out the Brother Speedio machines. They can rigid tap at 6K rpm!
 
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ojh

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Apr 11, 2011
Messages
31
I don't care about brands, as long as they're a name brand and HSS or better. I power tap on my Bridgeport and it's incredibly satisfying! I just used a YG-1 spiral tap I got on Amazon and it was awesome for $15 shipped. I have some other YG-1 tooling and it's been great also. As others have said, there are taps that push chips for through holes and taps that extract threads for blind holes. Once you power tap on a mill, you'll never want to do it any other way.
Do you use a 'tapping head' in the mill? I've seen them and suspect they work like a clutch, if thats what you use can you explain it?
I do most of my tapping on a lathe, for hand work I have a hand operated tapping machine that is deadnuts straight, I'll sometimes use the mill to start a tap after drilling the hole (that way everything is perfect straight).
How does the 'tapping head' work?
 

Bigblue&Goldie

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I've never used a tapping head, but if you go on YouTube there are some good video's explaining how they work.

My method is to use a cheap keyed chuck to hold the taps on the round portion of the shank. Feed the quill down until it grabs and it will feed itself the rest of the way. You can kill the power or instant reverse it and the quill will retract. I keep a light finger of up pressure on it so when the tap lifts out it doesn't wipe out the intial couple of threads. Lots of lube, low RPM's. The Chinese chuck acts like a clutch if the tap sticks by slipping on the tap or on the arbor. I've yet to break a tap. YouTube has good videos of this method also.
 

ojh

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Apr 11, 2011
Messages
31
Thats about how I do it in the lathe, let the chuck loose in the tailstock and run it in without much pressure, let the chuck spin, when reverse unlock the tailstock and it backs right out.
 

Monza Harry

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Dec 29, 2018
Messages
1,433
Location
Windsor ON
Tapping heads are as varied as there are makers. Most that I have used are of the clutch type, adjust tension to your best guess [lots of hands on all of these before I ever touched them so performance is varied] they are expensive and now considered obsolete in modern CNC tool-shops [other techniques or now the go to as outlined above] so replacement is un-likely. There is also an "Auto Reversing" head, [even more $$$$$$] never had the chance to try one of those yet, but I've only been in this **** for just shy of 40 years now, maybe soon(?) I doubt it though. So I use my $40 Chinese 0-5/8" keyless chuck, you have to reverse with a tap wrench usually. For through [<3/8"] holes I don't even slow down the speed from drilling, turn on and then off as you contact the thin material, it usually slows down all by itself. Pucker factor yeah first 100 or so times. I tell the onlookers, "Don't try this at home kids I'm a professionally trained idiot" Also a cordless drill motor with the clutch [shown with #'s ~ 1-10(?) and a drill bit pic.] set accordingly is pretty handy for smaller taps and lots of holes, 1st gear and lube. As for how they work I have never taken one apart but I would think they would be a variation of the clutch on the quill feed of a Bridgeport a spring against mated radial toothed plates somewhat similar to a hammer drill, others are just a slip clutch these ones are set-up with individual holders as size does matter. Harry

https://www.kbctools.ca/CatSearch/123/tapping-heads Note the price of the reversing one at the bottom US$ so X1.5 > 2X for Canadian dollars
 

MadMark

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Joined
Sep 21, 2009
Messages
677
Location
New York City
Taps are a quite varied these days. At work, we often use form taps (roll taps) in aluminum and stainless steel. We also use cut taps.

A few topics...

... the chamfer/lead on the tap. There are plug, bottom, and modified bottom. Usually expressed as a multiple of thread pitch such as 2-3p. Longer lead means lower effort to run the tap into the hole.

... cut taps, form/roll taps, thread mills, thread hobs.
  • Cut taps are what most folks are familiar with.
  • Form/roll taps have no flutes and create no chips, they are more like a screw with a raised cam lobe which pushes the metal around to create threads. To use these, the drilled hole must be larger than normal. An advantage is being able to run the tap to the bottom of a blind hole without chips building up and jamming. The high friction requires good lubrication.
  • Thread hobs are like end mills but with specific teeth which match the thread. To create threads, they are swept through a helix in the hole with the spindle running at high rpm.
  • Thread mills are like thread hobs but only have a single "thread". They have to be spiraled through a hole several "laps".
... spiral point and spiral flute. Spiral point will push chips in front of the tap which works best with through holes like in plates. Spiral flutes will pull the chips up like a drill bit and work best for blind holes.

Modern CNC's are very precise, very accurate, rigid, and repeat amazingly. Older machines might use synchronous tapping which often requires a tap holder with a little compression/tension spring to help the tap float. Newer machines use rigid tapping where the spindle and the feed axis are precisely controlled.
Excellent post, a must read.
I had no idea forming taps existed, need to see a video of them in action.
Unfortunately novices with little machining experience won't comprehend it all.
 

dr_clyde

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Jan 7, 2009
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6,429
Location
Holland, MI
Tapping is probably one of the most misunderstood things I can think of on the home shop level. It is one of those tasks that is so easy to do if you're doing it correctly, but goes very wrong very fast if any one of the parameters is wrong.

The most common things I see wrong when tapping holes are, in no particular order:

Wrong size tap drill hole
Wrong tap style/material
Wrong feeds and speeds
Crooked lead in
Lack of proper lubrication/cutting oil

The biggest offender I think is cheap carbon steel hand taps. They are just garbage, almost always. Especially for power tapping. The metallurgy is sketchy at best, the design is not meant for repeated or continuous use and they tend to be fragile.

A hand tap is designed to neither push or pull the chips, but to curl them into the flute. This is why you have to stop, reverse the tap to break the chip, and then keep going. This is also why you can't power feed them. There is nowhere for the chips to go, and the get jammed up in the flutes and the tap breaks.

Taps designed to be power fed are usually either spiral point or spiral flute. The spiral point is for through holes, and will push the taps out the bottom of the hole. They tend to be durable, with only two or 3 flutes and are almost always HSS. Spiral flute taps pull the chips out the top of the hole and work best for blind holes. The are a bit more fragile due to their design, but are ideal if you have to thread into a shoulder or a shallow blind hole.

The other common production tap is a roll form tap. This tap doesn't make chips, rather it squishes the metal around it into the shape of the thread you want. This is especially effective in softer metals like aluminum, and it actually makes a really strong thread because instead of shearing the metals grain structure, you're simply molding it around the tap. These taps aren't really useable by hand, they like rigidity and power that the machine tool provides.

We tap thousands of holes in my shop, and there are probably as many ways to do it as there are holes.

If we have one or two holes to tap, we'll just chuck up a tap in the bridgeport spindle and power tap. The operator has his hand on the drum switch and reverses the spindle at the right moment.

If we have a few dozen or more holes to tap, we'll put the tapping head in the drill press. We have a Procunier tapping head. More on that here. https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/id-tap-that-new-procunier-tapping-head.438141/

If the hole is part of another machining operation, we will rigid tap in the CNC mill. Rigid tapping is where the CNC control synchronizes the feed of the spindle with the RPM of the tap, such that the spindle advances at the correct rate for the lead of the thread. It takes seconds to tap a hole in the CNC, as it is running a high horsepower spindle, has rigid and correct workholding, everything is aligned properly, and there is usually flood coolant or some other applied oil.

We only hand tap if there is no other choice. I will usually run a spiral point tap in a cordless drill if we can't hold the part in a machine. I don't even own hand taps, we use spiral point for most everything.

Union Butterfield, OSG and Greenfield make my favorite taps.
 

tarbellb

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Joined
Apr 17, 2011
Messages
5,737
Location
Oregon
Tapping is probably one of the most misunderstood things I can think of on the home shop level. It is one of those tasks that is so easy to do if you're doing it correctly, but goes very wrong very fast if any one of the parameters is wrong.

The most common things I see wrong when tapping holes are, in no particular order:

Wrong size tap drill hole
Wrong tap style/material
Wrong feeds and speeds
Crooked lead in
Lack of proper lubrication/cutting oil

The biggest offender I think is cheap carbon steel hand taps. They are just garbage, almost always. Especially for power tapping. The metallurgy is sketchy at best, the design is not meant for repeated or continuous use and they tend to be fragile.

A hand tap is designed to neither push or pull the chips, but to curl them into the flute. This is why you have to stop, reverse the tap to break the chip, and then keep going. This is also why you can't power feed them. There is nowhere for the chips to go, and the get jammed up in the flutes and the tap breaks.

Taps designed to be power fed are usually either spiral point or spiral flute. The spiral point is for through holes, and will push the taps out the bottom of the hole. They tend to be durable, with only two or 3 flutes and are almost always HSS. Spiral flute taps pull the chips out the top of the hole and work best for blind holes. The are a bit more fragile due to their design, but are ideal if you have to thread into a shoulder or a shallow blind hole.

The other common production tap is a roll form tap. This tap doesn't make chips, rather it squishes the metal around it into the shape of the thread you want. This is especially effective in softer metals like aluminum, and it actually makes a really strong thread because instead of shearing the metals grain structure, you're simply molding it around the tap. These taps aren't really useable by hand, they like rigidity and power that the machine tool provides.

We tap thousands of holes in my shop, and there are probably as many ways to do it as there are holes.

If we have one or two holes to tap, we'll just chuck up a tap in the bridgeport spindle and power tap. The operator has his hand on the drum switch and reverses the spindle at the right moment.

If we have a few dozen or more holes to tap, we'll put the tapping head in the drill press. We have a Procunier tapping head. More on that here. https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/id-tap-that-new-procunier-tapping-head.438141/

If the hole is part of another machining operation, we will rigid tap in the CNC mill. Rigid tapping is where the CNC control synchronizes the feed of the spindle with the RPM of the tap, such that the spindle advances at the correct rate for the lead of the thread. It takes seconds to tap a hole in the CNC, as it is running a high horsepower spindle, has rigid and correct workholding, everything is aligned properly, and there is usually flood coolant or some other applied oil.

We only hand tap if there is no other choice. I will usually run a spiral point tap in a cordless drill if we can't hold the part in a machine. I don't even own hand taps, we use spiral point for most everything.

Union Butterfield, OSG and Greenfield make my favorite taps.

And that there is a modern tutorial on how tapping is done in a small/med production environment.

Thanks
 

larry_g

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Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Messages
16,871
Location
oregon
Great info , is there a preferred speed if doing mild steel or aluminum ?

or a chart that tells you what speed to use ?
Many available. Look at the Guring site I linked above. Get yourself a "Machinery's Handbook". It doesn't have to be the latest copy.

lg
no neat sig line
 

CapriMikeC

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Joined
May 31, 2019
Messages
417
Location
AZ
I G84 it and call it a day with taps

On our Mitsui Seiki mills, we have to use G84.2 for rigid tapping. G84 on the Mitsui only does synchronous tapping and requires the tension/compression tap holders. On the Okuma mill, it's G284. Makino is G84 but has to have special M135 code a few lines before.
 

bsaint

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Apr 26, 2010
Messages
5,109
Location
Manchester, CT
On our Mitsui Seiki mills, we have to use G84.2 for rigid tapping. G84 on the Mitsui only does synchronous tapping and requires the tension/compression tap holders. On the Okuma mill, it's G284. Makino is G84 but has to have special M135 code a few lines before.
We have a basic machine. Ours is just G84 lol.
 
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