Main panel breaker, issue turning off

[aggie113]

My main panel has the house/garage/well/surge and a breaker for a 110 plug drop under it. The issue is with the 200A breaker for the garage. It does not trip when trying to manually trip it (haven't tried to purposely trip it with a short). A friend was over at the garage a few weekends back to do final work on a 60A run from the garage's primary panel to a subpanel. He mentioned the issue then and I confirmed. He said he thinks the cover may just be binding it and keeping it from being pushed enough to trip.
I am hesitant to remove the cover for my main panel as electricity is magic and that much magic does put some fear in me. A solar install is pending and all the electrical will be gone over at that time by pros. I'm I ok just leaving it as is until then? My thinking is that everything that 200A runs to has it's own breaker so unless the actual panel in the garage has an issue I should be "safe".

 

[mike93lx]

Get an electrician to look at it.

Don't ever short a circuit to test a breaker. Especially a 200a one.

 

[PCustoms]

Get an electrician to look at it.

Don't ever short a circuit to test a breaker. Especially a 200a one.

Worth repeating

 

[PCustoms]

@aggie113 post a pic of the panel, with the door open

 

[aggie113]

Photo attached. To be clear, the 200A breaker did work previously as I tested that tripping it only cut power to the garage and not the house as well. Same friend was worried the 200A breaker was tied to both the house and garage (based on the photo of it I sent him).

 

[Bert_]

Do you actually mean trip? Or are you just trying to turn it off?

It takes a pretty good short to trip a 200A breaker.

 

[aggie113]

Do you actually mean trip? Or are you just trying to turn it off?

It takes a pretty good short to trip a 200A breaker.

I mean turn off.

 

[mike93lx]

That 200a breaker should be for the power coming into that panel, not going out.

If that is feeding something, call an electrician! Not your buddy

 

[PCustoms]

Photo attached. To be clear, the 200A breaker did work previously as I tested that tripping it only cut power to the garage and not the house as well. Same friend was worried the 200A breaker was tied to both the house and garage (based on the photo of it I sent him).

Really going to need the cover off to diagnose this additional information, but you're not comfortable doing that.

You've also got at least 1 incorrect breaker there.

Time to call an electrician

 

[mikedodge]

The cover is nowhere near it.?

This is a situation to call an electrician. Ultimately if there's something wrong you'd be doing that anyway.

 

[PCustoms]

Photo attached. To be clear, the 200A breaker did work previously as I tested that tripping it only cut power to the garage and not the house as well. Same friend was worried the 200A breaker was tied to both the house and garage (based on the photo of it I sent him).

Also take a step back and show more of what is there. Where is the meter?

 

[aggie113]

Also take a step back and show more of what is there. Where is the meter?

 

[aggie113]

Have a call in with the company that did the work. Hopefully they can resolve the breaker and any issues with the panel not being setup correctly.

 

[mike93lx]

Have a call in with the company that did the work. Hopefully they can resolve the breaker and any issues with the panel not being setup correctly.

I would have zero faith in them correcting it unless they fired the guy that initially did it

 

[PCustoms]

I would have zero faith in them correcting it unless they fired the guy that initially did it

Why, because the dis something as dumb as put a square D breaker in a Siemens panel?

Note: I didn't actually check if this is listed. I doubt it though

 

[mike93lx]

Why, because the dis something as dumb as put a square D breaker in a Siemens panel?

Note: I didn't actually check if this is listed. I doubt it though

"thats how we do it all the time and have gotten no call backs on problems"

Or some such ********

 

[NUTTSGT]

Was the Surge Protection put in at a later date than when this box was originally installed ?

I'll agree with Mike, the 200A should be the breaker for the whole box, coming in from the meter. You're not going to know until the cover comes off.

The 20A single pole should be for the outlet below the box. The 30A, self explanatory, for the well pump.

100A should be one for house, one for garage if I had to guess and what I would expect if I had to kill power on a fire call.

My thoughts. . . As seeing the writing in two different colors, first guess, addition was made to the box with the Surge Protector for the house. Originally, main house was on the right until the Surge Protector was installed and switched to the left so the house power was virtually without power during the install. The garage went from the left to the right and is now mislabled as Main House afterwards.


Now, all bets are off because shady **** happens. If the 200A controls the garage and both the 100A breakers control the house. . . whoa, I hope they didn't do any other electrical work in the house.


I'd like to see a picture with the cover off, not just for me but to show the young guys on the department what to look for.

 

[PCustoms]

I'd like to see a picture with the cover off, not just for me but to show the young guys on the department what to look for.

I'd like to see one too, as it would confirm a few things. In the meantime, if @aggie113 wants to run a few tests:

-shut the left 100A breaker OFF. What went dead? Turn it back on.
-shut the right 100A breaker OFF. What went dead? Turn it back on
-shut 20A off, does GFCI go dead? Turn back on

 

[aggie113]

Everything is labeled properly in the photo.

 

[mike93lx]

Everything is labeled properly in the photo.

Including the unlabled breaker?

 

[aggie113]

If you are talking about the one for the 110v socket, that does not have a label. Everything with a label is correct.

 

[mike93lx]

If you are talking about the one for the 110v socket, that does not have a label. Everything with a label is correct.

OK. Then what about the main breaker somehow being used for the garage?

If that is how it's actually setup, you need to know this is wrong.

 

[PCustoms]

OK. Then what about the main breaker somehow being used for the garage?

Throwing the breaker should kill the garage (as well as the pump, the house, the outlet and the surge suppression).

But, unless the interior of that label has been gutted and re-configured somehow, I don't see how it kills only the garage.

 

[PCustoms]

I'll hesitantly mention this, the main breaker takes a bit to operate, it isn't just a light finger push like the others...

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

OP needs professional help from a "non affiliated" electrician. My best advice is to not F with this unless you are experienced and have the proper equipment.

Call a professional electrician because your loss my be more than just financial.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

I'll hesitantly mention this, the main breaker takes a bit to operate, it isn't just a light finger push like the others...

TRUE! I had an "extension handle" made for my friends 200 amp main breaker that was difficult to throw.
Some of these main breakers have an "extension" that is attached to the handle and swings outward for leverage.

 

[Codyboy]

Photo attached. To be clear, the 200A breaker did work previously as I tested that tripping it only cut power to the garage and not the house as well. Same friend was worried the 200A breaker was tied to both the house and garage (based on the photo of it I sent him).

Call an electrician.

That being said, which breaker under the 200 goes to the garage?
I suspect its the one labeled main house.

The actual feed to the house is probably double lugged on the line side of the 200 or double lugged on the load side jaws in the meter base. In other words the house wiring probably bypasses the 200 and only runs through the panel using it as a raceway only.

I suspect when the surge protector was added they used the house or garage breaker for it and that left no space to feed whichever one.
So it gets bypassed.

 

[Codyboy]

TRUE! I had an "extension handle" made for my friends 200 amp main breaker that was difficult to throw.
Some of these main breakers have an "extension" that is attached to the handle and swings outward for leverage.

Haha. For my 200 square d mains i have to use a glove or a board to turn it on. Especially the outdoor panel with the flip up cover. Hard yo get a good purchase on it from the plastic surround.
That thing is stiff!

 

[rlitman]

Get an electrician to look at it.

Don't ever short a circuit to test a breaker. Especially a 200a one.

Agreed. I wouldn't even suggest shorting a 15A breaker.

To this, I will add three points.

1) The short circuit current experienced when you short a breaker has NOTHING to do with any number printed on the breaker, and everything to do with the "energy" available (no need to delve into the math here). To that end, a short across the output terminals of that 200A breaker will see about the same current as a short across that 30A breaker, because both are directly connected to the panel. Real breaker short circuit testing is done at VERY low voltages.

2) No matter how you bind up a circuit breaker handle, the internal mechanism MUST still be able to trip. You can clamp the handle into the On position, but the breaker can still trip. That's why a breaker has a Trip position, and why pushing the handle from Trip to On does nothing (why you must first flip it Off before you can reset it to On).

3) A breaker with a trip button is perfectly safe to trip using the button (in a residential setting, that would be an AFCI or GFCI). Still not safe to short.

TRUE! I had an "extension handle" made for my friends 200 amp main breaker that was difficult to throw.
Some of these main breakers have an "extension" that is attached to the handle and swings outward for leverage.

I've never seen that in a miniaturized circuit breaker, but the 1200A and larger breakers I regularly operate have this (it's SO nice...). I have a few 600A breakers that make me feel like I'm going to throw my shoulder out - I really wish CH had a mechanism as smooth as Square D, but that's beside the point.

 

[sparky 1971]

Photo attached. To be clear, the 200A breaker did work previously as I tested that tripping it only cut power to the garage and not the house as well. Same friend was worried the 200A breaker was tied to both the house and garage (based on the photo of it I sent him).

Could be a bad breaker or it could be that you aren't flipping it hard enough. Just call someone out that can take the cover off. I'd be willing to bet that the 200 amp breaker shuts off everything and you didn't check to see if the house was out after you checked the garage and there is a 100 amp breaker for the house as well as the garage and since there wasn't enough breaker space for the surge protector, they tapped it off of the garage breaker. If, indeed they somehow worked some magic and have only the garage on the 200, there is a problem.

 

[sparky 1971]

Why, because the dis something as dumb as put a square D breaker in a Siemens panel?

Note: I didn't actually check if this is listed. I doubt it though

According to Square D, Square D breakers are only listed for Square D panels. However, Millbank meter mains have Siemens guts in them and according to them will accept Square D Homeline and Eaton BR as well as Siemens. I use BR surge protectors in them all the time and keep the Millbank paperwork in my truck in case I ever get called out on it (I haven't...yet).

 

[sparky 1971]

And, I almost never shut off a main. It's been many years ago, but there were a couple I shut off and the damned things wouldn't turn back on. If I want to kill the power to everything, I'll shut off every breaker in the place; if one of those doesn't want to turn back on, it's a pretty easy fix.

 

[Norcal]

According to Square D, Square D breakers are only listed for Square D panels. However, Millbank meter mains have Siemens guts in them and according to them will accept Square D Homeline and Eaton BR as well as Siemens. I use BR surge protectors in them all the time and keep the Millbank paperwork in my truck in case I ever get called out on it (I haven't...yet).

Some Milbank equipment uses Zinsco style mains.

 

[sparky 1971]

Some Milbank equipment uses Zinsco style mains.

Every Milbank meter main I've installed for at least the last 15 years, including my own, had a Siemens eight space interior with either a Siemens 200 amp or backfed 100 amp main breaker. The house I built in 2006 had a GE 200 amp main but I don't remember if it was a Milbank or Midwest meter main; at that time, the supply house carried both.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

the cover is not blocking the breaker and unless someone screwed up the wiring inside the panel, there is no way a MAIN which feeds power to the branch breaker busses below, is a branch breaker for the garage. we need to see the inside of the panel with the cover removed

 

[mikedodge]

Switching off the 200A should shut off everything. Even the diagram on the cover label shows that.

If everything is labeled right someone could have wired the garage in directly off the busses like a feed thru panel. Either way something doesn't sound right from your description of thr panel that the 200A only shuts off the garage and no one will know what's going on till there's a good picture with the cover removed.

 

[Norcal]

Every Milbank meter main I've installed for at least the last 15 years, including my own, had a Siemens eight space interior with either a Siemens 200 amp or backfed 100 amp main breaker. The house I built in 2006 had a GE 200 amp main but I don't remember if it was a Milbank or Midwest meter main; at that time, the supply house carried both.

Midwest was owned by GE now ABB, so they would use GE breakers decades ago Midwest used Westinghouse breakers, I see the Zinsco style in commercial safety socket meter cans which I doubt are used outside of EUSERC areas.

 

[aggie113]

OK, curiosity didn't kill me but did get this photo. Circled wires are going to garage!

 

[PCustoms]

OK, curiosity didn't kill me but did get this photo. Circled wires are going to garage!

The 200A breaker on top should shut the entire panel off. I don't see any reason that when you shut it off it only killed the garage and not the house

 

[aggie113]

So I guess I was not remembering correctly that the 200A breaker only turned off the garage. It looks like it would just turn off everything.