Major tile issues on newish home

[rockcrawler]

We had our custom dream home built in 2020. About 6-7 months ago we noticed some grout cracking between a few tiles. We contacted the builder to let them know what was going on. We notified them that the tiles sounded hollow when tapping on them. Additionally, we found about 50 tiles on the first floor that sound hollow. They sent out some guys who removed about 5-6 tiles (all we had left from the build) where the grout was cracking and replaced them. During the build, when the tile was first being laid, we noticed that they were installing it after they installed the baseboards. So, no expansion gap that we know of. We tried to tell them to stop and do it under the baseboards with an expansion gap, but they refused. This became one of the bitter battles we had with them. Well, now here we are about 4 years later and the floor seems to be coming up. This is something we were concerned about and we warned them about. We believe this is due to the fact that they did not leave the proper expansion gap at the walls. We also believe the concrete was not prepped properly and the tile was installed incorrectly. We know of a few homes in our neighborhood having the same issues. Some builder, same tile guys. Our tile is from Interceramic, who has recently gone out of business and our tile is no longer available. The builder has basically told us they are done with us and told us they will no longer discuss the issue. We are devastated! A brand new home that will most likely have to be gutted of all flooring and be completely redone due to poor/improper installation. Just yesterday, we found several more tiles where the grout is cracking between them. I’m posting this to see if anyone knows who we can contact to give us some professional opinions of our situation and what is causing our tiles to come up. We believe this is going to require some kind of industry certified tile engineer of some sort.

 

[Firebrick43]

We built our custom dream home in 2020. About 6-7 months ago we noticed some grout cracking between a few tiles. We contacted the builder to let them know what was going on. We notified them that the tiles sounded hollow when tapping on them. Additionally, we found about 50 tiles on the first floor that sound hollow. They sent out some guys who removed about 5-6 tiles (all we had left from the build) where the grout was cracking and replaced them. During the build, when the tile was first being laid, we noticed that they were installing it after they installed the baseboards. So, no expansion gap that we know of. We tried to tell them to stop and do it under the baseboards with an expansion gap, but they refused. This became one of the bitter battles we had with them. Well, now here we are about 4 years later and the floor seems to be coming up. This is something we were concerned about and we warned them about. We believe this is due to the fact that they did not leave the proper expansion gap at the walls. We also believe the concrete was not prepped properly and the tile was installed incorrectly. We know of a few homes in our neighborhood having the same issues. Some builder, same tile guys. Our tile is from Interceramic, who has recently gone out of business and our tile is no longer available. The builder has basically told us they are done with us and told us they will no longer discuss the issue. We are devastated! A brand new home that will most likely have to be gutted of all flooring and be completely redone due to poor/improper installation. Just yesterday, we found several more tiles where the grout is cracking between them. I’m posting this to see if anyone knows who we can contact to give us some professional opinions of our situation and what is causing our tiles to come up. We believe this is going to require some kind of industry certified tile engineer of some sort.

Did you see the thin set and the amount of coverage on the back of the tile when they removed them?

Why do you need to have/pay and engineer tell you that the install was ****? You already know it was by everything you wrote. Your well past most workmanship warranty on a new home.

Rip it out and vet your next tile guy as well as possible.

 

[mike93lx]

Rip it out and vet your next tile guy as well as possible.

This. No special consults needed. Start over

 

[rockcrawler]

Did you see the thin set and the amount of coverage on the back of the tile when they removed them?

Why do you need to have/pay and engineer tell you that the install was ****? You already know it was by everything you wrote. Your well past most workmanship warranty on a new home.

Rip it out and vet your next tile guy as well as possible.

No, we did not see the bottom of the tiles when they removed them. They pretty much broke into a lot of small pieces.

Ripping out and replacing will cost a small fortune. Tile alone is going to be about $10K. I’m sure labor will triple that price.

 

[cgrutt]

First off very sorry to hear your troubles with this. That's horrible.

There are many reasons grout may be cracking perimeter expansion joint may or may not be key issue here. Too many unknowns to say with certainty. I suspect alot of this could have been avoided if they used an uncoupling membrane irrespective of the perimeter expansion.

I'm assuming from your description all of the tile was installed directly over a concrete slab. How old was the slab before installation? Is the slab above or below grade? Are there any moisture issues with slab? Is there any movement in slab? If so is it happening on same plane (widening/narrowing) or off plane (lifting vertically)?

Now for cracking, where is it happening? Are any of the tiles cracking or is it just the grout? Is grout crumbling and coming out or just separating from tile? Is it happening at the perimeters or within field of tiles? In straight (relatively) lines or randomly throughout? Are the tiles popping off slab or loose? Are the tiles ceramic, porcelain, stone, terracotta? What kind of thinset was used?

How large are the tiles and how wide are the grout lines? Did they use sanded or unsanded grout? Modified or unmodified grout? Was grout sealed if unmodified? Were tiles butted up against moldings or is there a grout line around perimeter?

Do you wet mop the floors? How often and how wet? Is this happening in high traffic areas? Wet areas such as bathroom? Is floor heated?

You get the idea....

 

[cliffcharb]

Unfortunately your situation sounds like the norm in construction. During my remodel and also my SIL's remodel we both had the contractors rip up the newly installed tile due to poor installation.
At the same time, I've had hollow tiles in my home for 14 years that never came loose, so it might not be anything to worry about.

 

[AffableCurmudgeon]

Have an attorney look at your agreement with the builder. There may be express or implied warranties. The attorney can advise you if you are able to recover any damages.
In any event, looks like you may have to re-do the floor; would be nice you don't have to foot the bill.

 

[Wiz02]

Here is a great forum to ask tile related questions. I learned a huge amount from the knowledgeable folks that participate here:

Tile Forum/Advice Board - Ceramic Tile Advice Forums - John Bridge Ceramic Tile

Tile, stone and other things that are hard to cut and difficult to install. "Weekend warriors" (newbies) check in here. :-)

www.johnbridge.com

 

[The Cobbler]

the issue is not that there was no gap for expansion,ceramics don't need that . it's the glue joint that has failed . either it wasn't back buttered , not deep enough grooves, let go from the substrate or whatever .
I can feel for the OP, but on the other hand, I suspect there's more to the story .
I've worked with clients that know everything and try to tell the contractor how to do their job.

 

[Rusted Nut]

No, we did not see the bottom of the tiles when they removed them. They pretty much broke into a lot of small pieces.

If the tile broke into small pieces, it’s probably set and adhered properly. Unfortunately, cracks in grout are fairly normal, and usually considered a maintenance item. What does your contract/warranty state?

 

[billconner]

Usually the hollow sound - tapping with a dowel is the test I've seen - means the tile is not bonded to the substrate. Resulting movement will crack grout. Agree with lawyer suggestion and agree this probably needs to be torn up and redone if you can't live with it. My condolences. It's why I try to do everything myself.

 

[mike93lx]

If the tile broke into small pieces, it’s probably set and adhered properly. Unfortunately, cracks in grout are fairly normal, and usually considered a maintenance item. What does your contract/warranty state?

I've always considered cracking grout to be a sign of an installation error, whether the subfloor or tile, not a maintenance issue. I've never encountered cracked grout when one or both of those wasn't a factor, but I am far from an expert on this.

 

[BillK]

Also not an expert but the grout on the ceramic tile I installed in our foyer and kitchen has not cracked in 25 years but it is on a concrete slab. On the other hand the grout in the tiles in both bathrooms upstairs has definitely cracked some. I just cant imagine how it would not over time on a plywood subfloor ??

 

[mike93lx]

Also not an expert but the grout on the ceramic tile I installed in our foyer and kitchen has not cracked in 25 years but it is on a concrete slab. On the other hand the grout in the tiles in both bathrooms upstairs has definitely cracked some. I just cant imagine how it would not over time on a plywood subfloor ??

Depends on how solid the floor is and if you use any kind of isolation membrane. I'd expect tile directly in a plywood subfloor to crack as well, but that's not a good install.

 

[jar944]

If they sound hollow, they are not adhered.

Are these large format tile?

 

[P0234]

Happened to my parents on their Pulte built home. Just a horrible job of tile work, similar to OP with quite a few loose after 3 or 4 years. Had the entire floor re-done by a competent tile guy about ten years ago and all has been well. Most builders just don't care and for the most part know these problems will happen after their warranty.

 

[Old tool guy]

the issue is not that there was no gap for expansion,ceramics don't need that . it's the glue joint that has failed . either it wasn't back buttered , not deep enough grooves, let go from the substrate or whatever .

Agree, tile doesn’t expand & contract. Another possibility is they mixed a large batch of thinset, it got old but they used it anyway. And/or they spread too much on the floor, it skinned over and didn't adhere to the tile. I would add that they spread it directly on plywood subfloor which sucked moisture out of the thinset, except he‘s in Dallas so almost certainly concrete slab.

 

[mepstein]

I worked and sold new construction. Tile is put in by the least expensive guy who will show up. Contractors and home builders will never pull money out of pocket after the house is done and sold. You can spend money for a nasty lawyer letter if it makes you feel better but the builder will ignore it. If he’s been a builder for more than 6 months, he’s already received and ignored similar letters. Real legal action will cost more than the repair/replacement and the builder will ignore a judgment anyway.
Sorry for the lack of feel good news but it’s the truth.

Years ago my dad reply all his kitchen tile. It would easily crack anytime something was dropped on it. He had good quality tile put in by a reputable guy. The tile has been pristine for at least 10 years. Like most things, prep and technique is 95%.

 

[inphx]

If the tile broke into small pieces, it’s probably set and adhered properly. Unfortunately, cracks in grout are fairly normal, and usually considered a maintenance item. What does your contract/warranty state?

not necessarily.. if the repairer didn't try to suction cup lift or gently pry up the hollow/loose tile and just hammer it because you have a few spares.. it could be this scenario.

I DIY'ed my new home tile and had a few such hollow tiles later.. found a way to lift them off, scraped below and backside of tile (yes not back buttered properly) and relaid inthe same tile fixing the issues.

 

[kj_mustang]

Agree with BillK's post above. Hollow sound, bad adhesion to substrate. Your grout cracked because of flexing in the tile due to it not being adhered properly. Wrong thinset or poor installation technique. If it is past the builder's warranty period, good luck getting him to do anything. Not an expansion gap issue. Grout will crack due to substrate movement or tile movement. Since this is over concrete slab, I would suspect it hasn't been cracking and moving in different sections.

 

[duneslider]

Lots of misinformation in here on this. Grout shouldn't be cracking, tiles shouldn't be loose, and tiles shouldn't sound hollow. None of that is "normal" but there is nowhere near enough information to determine what is happening here. Tiles should not be grouted solid between the baseboards, that is a bad practice and yes tile does expand and contract. However, when tile is constrained (such as between two walls like you mention) it will typically tent which is much more catastrophic than cracked grout. I'm leaning towards that not being the issue. Some pictures of the general areas and pictures of the grout would be helpful.

Is this over concrete, or a wood subfloor? I see far more problems with tile over wood subfloors than over concrete. Cracking grout is a result of movement and concrete is much more stable than wood subfloors. I am guessing texas doesn't do a lot of basements though, so this is probably over concrete? There can be a lot of reasons for issues over concrete too but I see them less often. I doubt the concrete was green when install happened, its uncommon for a floor to be poured and the house to progress to baseboards installed and floors installed in less than 28 days.

Really, in the end, if it wasn't installed correctly it probably doesn't matter what was done wrong.

Unless you plan to sue the builder or tile contractor there isn't a point in having a forensic tile consultant come in. They do exist but it's a waste of time and money unless you are planning to sue. Likely the builder and tile contractor have zero assets you will have access to if you sue.

 

[red]

If the tile broke into small pieces, it’s probably set and adhered properly. Unfortunately, cracks in grout are fairly normal, and usually considered a maintenance item. What does your contract/warranty state?

Really? Normal for cracks in your grout or tile? That is not normal.

Three years ago I ripped out tile I put down in 1994, (400sq+) just one hairline crack in one tile. Changed the tile cause I made the mistake of using gloss tile instead of matte. New floor has been down almost 3yrs now, no cracks with tile or grout at all. I did spend the money for red guard, great crack isolation membrane. That hollow sound is from a defective install.

rockcrawler, since you found this problem BEFORE your home warranty was up, in my opinion the "builder" never resolved your original problem.
I would talk to attorney . . .
then call your "fixer" on your local TV station and/or use social media.

 

[duneslider]

Really? Normal for cracks in your grout or tile? That is not normal.

Three years ago I ripped out tile I put down in 1994, (400sq+) just one hairline crack in one tile. Changed the tile cause I made the mistake of using gloss tile instead of matte. New floor has been down almost 3yrs now, no cracks with tile or grout at all. I did spend the money for red guard, great crack isolation membrane. That hollow sound is from a defective install.

rockcrawler, since you found this problem BEFORE your home warranty was up, in my opinion the "builder" never resolved your original problem.
I would talk to attorney . . .
then call your "fixer" on your local TV station and/or use social media.

Pretty unlikely that he can compel the builder to do anything. Flooring is considered cosmetic, if this were a structural defect that made the house unsafe he could push for recourse but as it is I highly doubt even suing would net anything positive.

If a hundred people were in on a class action, the builder would just file for bankruptcy and move down the street under a new name.

It is very unfortunate. Sometimes I think all contractors should be bonded, insured, and required to offer more than a tail light warranty.

 

[Rusted Nut]

Most builder warranties will state that grout cracks are normal and as such are a maintenance item and not covered after a year. Not that I agree with this, but it’s reality in many cases.

 

[rockcrawler]

First off very sorry to hear your troubles with this. That's horrible.

There are many reasons grout may be cracking perimeter expansion joint may or may not be key issue here. Too many unknowns to say with certainty. I suspect alot of this could have been avoided if they used an uncoupling membrane irrespective of the perimeter expansion.

I'm assuming from your description all of the tile was installed directly over a concrete slab. How old was the slab before installation? Is the slab above or below grade? Are there any moisture issues with slab? Is there any movement in slab? If so is it happening on same plane (widening/narrowing) or off plane (lifting vertically)?

Now for cracking, where is it happening? Are any of the tiles cracking or is it just the grout? Is grout crumbling and coming out or just separating from tile? Is it happening at the perimeters or within field of tiles? In straight (relatively) lines or randomly throughout? Are the tiles popping off slab or loose? Are the tiles ceramic, porcelain, stone, terracotta? What kind of thinset was used?

How large are the tiles and how wide are the grout lines? Did they use sanded or unsanded grout? Modified or unmodified grout? Was grout sealed if unmodified? Were tiles butted up against moldings or is there a grout line around perimeter?

Do you wet mop the floors? How often and how wet? Is this happening in high traffic areas? Wet areas such as bathroom? Is floor heated?

You get the idea....

- 7x36 ceramic tiles on cement slab that was about 5 months old.

- Slab above grade.

- No moisture issues that we know of.

- Grout lines are fairly narrow.

- For now, no broken tiles, just cracked grout between tiles. Some out in the open (not at the walls) and the ones they replaced were by floor cabinets.

- Occasionally, we hear a loud snapping noise, but do not know where it is coming from. But later, we find another crack in the grout. This has happened a few times.

- Hallow tiles in living room, laundry room, kitchen, extra room.

- We don’t know what the used to apply tile.

- Tile is cleaned with a Bissell floor cleaner that uses very little water. Only enough water to wet the spinning scrubber spool. The cleaning is only done occasionally when needed. Floor never stays wet.

- They installed the baseboards before the tile, which we asked them not to do. Then they butted the tile against the baseboards. We requested that the tile be laid first with an expansion gap and then install the baseboards to cover the expansion gap. They told us no, and they always install the baseboards first.

- Floor is not heated.

 

[rockcrawler]

the issue is not that there was no gap for expansion,ceramics don't need that . it's the glue joint that has failed . either it wasn't back buttered , not deep enough grooves, let go from the substrate or whatever .
I can feel for the OP, but on the other hand, I suspect there's more to the story .
I've worked with clients that know everything and try to tell the contractor how to do their job.

We have not been able to find anywhere that states that an expansion gap is not necessary for ceramic tile.

 

[The Cobbler]

We have not been able to find anywhere that states that an expansion gap is not necessary for ceramic tile.

if the tile needs an expansion joint , explain how the floor & tile move differently .

 

[cgrutt]

- 7x36 ceramic tiles on cement slab that was about 5 months old.

- Slab above grade.

- No moisture issues that we know of.

- Grout lines are fairly narrow.

- For now, no broken tiles, just cracked grout between tiles. Some out in the open (not at the walls) and the ones they replaced were by floor cabinets.

- Occasionally, we hear a loud snapping noise, but do not know where it is coming from. But later, we find another crack in the grout. This has happened a few times.

- Hallow tiles in living room, laundry room, kitchen, extra room.

- We don’t know what the used to apply tile.

- Tile is cleaned with a Bissell floor cleaner that uses very little water. Only enough water to wet the spinning scrubber spool. The cleaning is only done occasionally when needed. Floor never stays wet.

- They installed the baseboards before the tile, which we asked them not to do. Then they butted the tile against the baseboards. We requested that the tile be laid first with an expansion gap and then install the baseboards to cover the expansion gap. They told us no, and they always install the baseboards first.

- Floor is not heated.

Nothing stands out to me as possible cause with all that. Have no idea what "snapping" sound is or what's causing that. Very odd. Personally I don't "think" the lack of expansion gap is causing issue. If that were problem I'd expect the cracked grout to be near perimeter of room not in open field. If the walls were moving and putting pressure on floor tiles I'd expect that you would have cracked tiles and or popped tiles in addition to the cracked grout. Thin grout lines are probably using unsanded grout that would possibly be issue with wide grout lines. Cleaning with little moisture and no moisture on slab / being above grade are all good excessive moisture "might" cause problems. No heat in floor rules out potential issue with quick changes in temperature and different expansion rates in materials. It could be bad grout. Not mixed properly, allowed to skim over before being worked into joints, not applied fully into joints.... sorry all I got.

 

[cgrutt]

if the tile needs an expansion joint , explain how the floor & tile move differently .

Above my pay grade but concrete has approximately twice expansion coefficient of ceramic tile so they move at different rates with changes in temperature and other environmental factors (moisture, etc). I do think the physical changes are quite small but they still change at different rates.

See here https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...wQFnoECA8QBg&usg=AOvVaw1p5qIGAlBFBCTTsEXpAKN-

Practically speaking this is one of the reasons to use an uncoupling membrane although ceramic over wood would be more problematic than ceramic over concrete IMHO....

ETA - had coefficient backwards corrected above.

 

[duneslider]

Tile absolutely needs an expansion joint. If you are hearing popping that very much sounds like tenting, only they didn't do a great job on the install so it isn't actually tenting. You can get an oscillating multitool and run it round the base boards with the grout removal blade and get the grout out then caulk it with either grout matched caulk or caulk that matches the baseboards. This will give it some help.

Here is a link to the TCNA about tile tenting Tile Tenting Link You can also do some searches there about movement joints, anti-fracture membranes, etc.

I think you might have some luck by cleaning out the perimeter and caulking it. It might prevent further delaminations but it won't fix any loose tiles you might have now but maybe it can buy you some time. If you do find loose tiles you can use that grout removal blade to clean the grout out around the tile and likely the tile will be loose and come up and you can thinset it back down and regrout. Fixing loose tile isn't a lot of fun and is a bit tedious but it is doable.

 

[Sumboodie]

I'm confused.

You built the house, ie, you're the builder, but you're having issues with the builder?

 

[bluedog225]

If the builder will work with you, it may be your cheapest path forward. And you pick the tile guys next time. Sorry about this, it‘s going to **** until you are past it.

 

[rockcrawler]

I'm confused.

You built the house, ie, you're the builder, but you're having issues with the builder?

Corrected to clarify and make it simpler to understand.

 

[3baygarage]

I feel bad for you. Our tile floor had to be removed after just 8 years. Thought it would last for ages. Thought for sure the concrete had damage or water issue, but no, nothing anywhere.

Edit: not a new home, but was re-done with the tile after buying.

 

[Keokie]

Hollow tiles and failing grout are not proper, but at least in my area of the country, they are both unfortunately normal. This leads to significant failures in some installations, and not others. Unfortunately, recourse options are not great. In some states you can get decent cooperation and help from the Registrar of Contractors.

Oh, and if you think you are alone, bounce a golf ball around on a few other tile installations.

 

[Fav Onefour]

These problems are installation problems that have nothing to do with expansion area under baseboard. If tile is moving enough for that to matter, it's going to fail anyhow.
Flexing substrate is often an issue. The other main issue has already been mentioned. Floor tile needs good mortar contact. Big tiles need really good and consistent contact. The big tile issue is a double whammy because it's already harder to install. If you get a sloppy install they are destined to fail. It's a bummer reality.

Cleaning methods won't make it fail. Life makes it fail. Anyone that moves a fridge or big appliance with a cart is already testing the limits of hollow pockets. Kids bouncing around just playing will test substrate flex. Clang a few dishes on hollow tile and things start to break.

My wife has office space in a building that used to have washed aggregate in the main halls and lobby. New owners took over and started putting lipstick on the pig. One of their first projects was slapping tile over the concrete. Nice, shiny 1X2 tile. I happened to swing by when the crew started laying mortar bed. I didn't see what they were using for mix, but I saw their trowels. They used small notch trowels without leveling the aggregate first. I told my wife that would be short lived flooring. She was glad. The smooth tile was dang slippery with snowy weather. The first cracks showed in about a month. They had a bunch of movers in just after the first month. They busted up a lot of tile in a nice path from entry to the elevators. They covered that whole area with carpet runners. The tile continued to break up anywhere there was traffic over the next year. They had a lot of carpet runners before they tore tile back out.

I know that is an extreme example. It is unfortunately quite common. Installers get paid after the customer looks at the work. In many cases that's all that matters.

If you are redoing these floors with big tiles, make damn sure it's done right. It still matters with smaller tile, but there is a little more margin of error.
Somewhere in this forum we should have a mission statement about projects.
Do it right Do it once.
I guess on the other hand, if we did that all the time there wouldn't be anything left to fix.

 

[Old tool guy]

Lots of misinformation in here on this.
and yes tile does expand and contract.

Yes but … please post the actual COE and convert that to real life numbers.

 

[Copymutt]

A life lesson every man learns, hopefully before he’s 30.
If you want it done right, learn how to do it & do it yourself. Exponentially easier now w/ the internet..
You’ll be satisfied w/ the results & will have pocketed the labor cost which can be invested.
Continue until you physically no longer can. Otherwise you’ll end up pissed off at the world & the scumbag rip off artists.
Once your aged out, best you can hope for is referrals from friends.

 

[Firebrick43]

The coefficient of thermal expansion with porcelain tile is 8.0 to 9.0 x10 −6

Concrete is 10.0 to 14.0 x 10 -6

So unless you have black tile in full sunlight and an uninsulated slab it’s immaterial. The concrete will expand more and push out the walls than the tile. It’s still not a bad idea for a gap but the OPs problem is unlikely to be unrelated to anything except poor thinset application.

Being long tile that is 36” long it’s very hard to get full bonding unless the notch trowel lines are across the axis of the tile, the tile is fully back buttered, and is properly set in a motion as shown in the video in post two. Large tile has a curve to it when fired that requires larger and taller notches.

On the other hand an osb subfloor is 3.4 x 10 -6 which is why they recommend a gap around the perimeter

Even if broken in small pieces of looking at the back of the pieces the percentage of thin set support can be observed.

 

[Fav Onefour]

Gotta agree with @Copymutt , on that philosophy.
I'm at a point in life where I still have enough body left to fix most of the previous screw ups. The list was pretty long but it's getting shorter. I'm down to just two gut and remodel projects this coming year. Yeah!

I'm lucky and have a good partner with most of the projects. My wife doesn't mind getting dirty and she's a real trooper. I've spent hours upon hours busting out junk building practices while she helps haul buckets of material to dumpsters. She also understands the philosophy of doing it right if you're going to do the work. Shortcuts generally mean more work long term. Those projects **** in our book. We don't want to do them again.
Flooring is a bear project. It's hard on the body and shortcuts are tempting.

I'll add that my inlaws do high end building-remodeling in Europe. It's fun to see how they do some of this stuff. They install tons of tile on concrete. I've been to quite a few job sites before, during, and after that step. I honestly can't recall ever hearing "hollow" tile. I will add that the guys doing tile are classified as skilled tradesmen. Certification is similar to what we know with plumbing and electrical here.
Their approach is a little different in terms of what they consider longevity. I get that part. But I don't have issues with using a practice that is designed to last a lifetime.