Making a live service connection?

[03HD-F150]

Hi All,

Been lurking around here for a couple months.... love the site! In process of building my new pole barn, and running electrical. So far, here's the progress:

30x48 pole barn completed, just finishing the garage doors.
Upgraded my house electrical from 100amp to 200amp. This included everything new from the weatherhead down.
Trenched 120ft over to my new barn, ran conductors into barn and ready to start wiring the barn itself (100 amp service in the barn)

My electrical work thus far has been approved by my inspector, but I've run into a snag with the service upgrade to the house... At the advice of my inspector, I ran the new meter box, pipe, weatherhead, and 4/0 cable right next to my existing meter set-up. Then I ran the SE cable from the old service into the bottom of the new meter box. The poco came out and swapped my meter for a new 200amp unit, but refuses to help me with the connection from their overhead service cable to my new 4/0 cable from the new weatherhead. They won't even come out and turn off the power upstream so I can make that connection myself. They tell me I MUST make the connection myself as-is, i.e. a LIVE service hook-up... I was dumbfounded by this.

So my question is, for those in the trade, do you make live service connections? What is the safe way to do this? My inspector led me to believe they would make that connection when they came out to do their "service upgrade" but all they did was spend 5 seconds swapping the meters...

thanks!

 

[03HD-F150]

Here's a picture of the set-up to give you an idea of where I'm at:

 

[Falcon67]

What? If it's north of the meter, the utility is the ONLY one that should be messing with the service. Everything from the pole to the meter is their turf. You need to elevate that, or talk to the state regulatory agency. I just did this not long ago, no problem with AEP tying back the service while I worked, and no problem with the post replacement hookup.

 

[OccupantRJ]

Whoever came out from the power company must have been on drugs to even suggest a live hookup by the homeowner. I would call the power company and tell them what you were told by the one who came out. Tell them you're calling from your cell on a metal extension ladder getting ready to hook 'er up, and that you just need to know which wire goes where. I bet someone shows up.

 

[03HD-F150]

Yeah I know.... I'm completely taken back that they seem to have no regard for safety.... they're the power company! I plan on getting my inspector involved. I think he may have some weight with them to get things done...

This is Detroit Edison (DTE) by the way...

 

[A_Pmech]

Detroit Edison must be trying to reduce it's customer base by electrocution.

 

[sdowney717]

I upgraded my service from 150 to 200 amp, new meter base, new circuit box, did it all myself.
I pulled the service line out of old box (HOT) , wrapped tape on the live ends, carefully extracted old box off the service line.
pulled old meter box off house, it was aready loose, screws were failing.
wired up new box
Took old service wires and stuffed into new meter base using those large bolt wire
connectors for the hots
This leaves the old base in the circuit, feeding the new base with no meter.
I could have pulled the meter, but the box was locked and of course I have no key.

Inspector passed it all.
Called Dominion to setup a service upgrade to 200 amp.
They took 2 MONTHS to finally come out. Said somehow I had been lost in the system.
Then the 2 guys told me, in the future, homeowners will have to hook up to the WEATHERHEAD LIVE themselves. So, I am glad I got it done before that.
I suppose they dont want to buy wire or send anyone out.
All they changed was the 4/0 service cable. The wire from weatherhead to pole was left the same.

I also got a new weatherhead from them but they used the same old standoff insulator.

 

[jkeyser14]

When I upgraded my service the electrician had to work on it live. The power company would only come out to touch things AFTER the county inspector had passed everything.

 

[walrus]

What? If it's north of the meter, the utility is the ONLY one that should be messing with the service. .

If you go on Mike Holts site you'll find electricians who do service changeovers live all the time. Its crazy if you ask me, they talk about doing it from a fiberglass ladder and some have PPE including rated gloves but some don't. In my area the power company will come no problem

 

[tfi racing]

Its hard to beleive the poco won't even do it for a fee,but it is what it is.Looks like you will have to hire an electrician to do it, if you are not comfortable or unsure how to do this - DON'T!I used to do these on a daily basis,not a big deal if you know what you are doing,if you don't you can end up dead wrong...

 

[Gary S]

I've seen licensed electricians do it, but they have years of experience. I've also seen them blow out the line fuses when it goes wrong.
The power company linemen work hot lines every day, but they also have years of experience at their job.
This is no job for an amateur. Call a licensed electrician. He just might have enough "pull" with the power company that he can get them to shut the power off while he makes the connection.
Last resort. Get yourself some good life insurance. We will miss you.

 

[jay50]

No big deal. Just lick your finger first and quickly pass it across each wire to the mass head and you can find the hot wire; not a big deal.....LOL

 

[MrMark]

OK, on this one you should not touch this at all. I know how to do it and have seen it done but it is just not worth messing with for me. The guy I saw do it used leather gloves and they offer some level of protection but they are not rated for that use either. This is the power company's domain and they have to do it here. In fact, the electricians, from what I understand, are not even supposed to be messing with their connections to the meter, that is why Edison puts locks on the meter and on the door on the panel that provides access to the meter.

 

[Norcal]

It's illegal for a electrician to do a hot swap OSHA rules prohibit it ,yes I know it's done all the time but if a accident occurs OSHA will have the employers family jewels in between a rock & a hard place, Linemen work under different rules then sparkies & are permitted to do live work, a PoCo telling a customer to do it is plum stupid.....

 

[sdowney717]

wear leather gloves with no holes or worn fingers.
I have no crimpers to connect those splice connections.
I suppose you need to also use the electric corrosion grease in the splice?
Years ago a tree fell on my land ripping out the power line from the house.
nothing shorted. So I put the splice together with that grease and used a large vice grip to squeeze it together.
I had to ream out the splice to fit the wire back in.
It lasted for years without any problems.
Before I started my service upgrade, I asked an electrician friend what electricians do and he said sometimes they do it live with the wires hot.

So what exactly would happen if a hot service entry line, 120 volt leg shorted to neutral, would it take out the neighborhood, blow the pole fuse?

 

[MrMark]

Are you sure there are "pole fuses"? I have never seen such a thing.

 

[cowboyjosh]

wear leather gloves with no holes or worn fingers
Before I started my service upgrade, I asked an electrician friend what electricians do and he said sometimes they do it live with the wires hot.

So what exactly would happen if a hot service entry line, 120 volt leg shorted to neutral, would it take out the neighborhood, blow the pole fuse?

Yes, if your lucky the line fuse will blow, otherwise you'll have one hell of a fireworks show

Im a contrator, I have a guy who does nothing but take care of safety regulations, etc. We don't work hot on a service entrance if we can help it, too much liability; usually we have no problems with the utility disconnecting power for us. If one of our guys does a "hot swap" without clearing it thru me, our safety engineer, or general super, he will have his *** hot swapped to the curb no questions asked. As a business owner and since I am the one paying into workmans comp and insurance; safety is a big deal, I fired a young whippersnapper last year because instead of finding the breaker at the box and turning off the circuit he would just cross hot to ground to trip the breaker of the circuit he was working on, I don't put up with that ****.

Anyways a utility that tells a homeowner to do work hot is a stupid utility.

 

[cowboyjosh]

Are you sure there are "pole fuses"? I have never seen such a thing.

pole fuses are at the line side of the transformer up on a pole on a overhead service; usually each overhead transformer serves 1 or two, sometimes 3 homes depending on how close together the houses are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blown_Fuse_Cutout_640.jpg

If you blow a pole fuse it sounds like 10 shotguns firing at the same time, you'll likely piss your pants.

 

[MrMark]

What do they look like? What is their rating?

 

[cowboyjosh]

What do they look like? What is their rating?

Take a look at the link in my last post, I don't know a pole fuse rating, only utility linesman get the opportunity to screw around with that stuff since the only way to get to the fuse is with a bucket truck.

 

[sdowney717]

yeah you hear those 'bangs' in my neightborhood and then the power goes out. I figure someone hit a pole, But I suppose the service cable could have broken then shorted by a tree coming down.

 

[MrMark]

Thanks. I'll have to look to see if I see those now!

 

[rockchucker]

Wow! I can't believe they told you to do that. Would never happen out here. Maybe the Lineman was in a bad mood? Either or...I agree on not touching it unless you absolutely know what you are doing.

 

[OccupantRJ]

Take a look at the link in my last post, I don't know a pole fuse rating, only utility linesman get the opportunity to screw around with that stuff since the only way to get to the fuse is with a bucket truck.

The ones near the factory where I work have dropped out on occasion, and they were relatched from the ground with a fiberglass pole by the lineman. They seem to just get spit out and swing loose upon overload or shorts.

 

[Torque1st]

I suppose one could just reach up with a fiberglass pole tree trimmer and cut the lines in the drop to the house a few places where they are separated. Pull the ends down and cut out sections of the line and hide them good. Make your connections and call the power company out because your power is out. When they ask how the lines got cut just say; "squirrels???"


The fuse at the pole is just a fuse link wire inside of a ceramic or fiberglass tube.

 

[cowboyjosh]

The "stick" that the utility workers use is called a "hot stick", its a specialty fiberglass tool that linesman use to either pull the fuse to disconnect power or to restore power after a fuse has blown. NEVER will you see a linesman not use a hot stick when restoring power even when he is in a bucket truck throwing a fuse, as the stick isolates him from any arc or blow out if their is a fault in the circuit and the fuse immediately blows upon restoring power to the circuit; kind of like if you wire a circuit, throw the breaker back on and it immediately blows; but in the linesman case he is dealing with a 7200 volt line into a step down transformer that reduces transmission voltages usually thousands of volts down to 240 volts used in the home. HOT STICKS are not just a fiberglass rod, OSHA states they need to be inspected and electrically tested and certified every year.

 

[sdowney717]

I always wondered how the transformers maintain their insulation in the windings, seeing such high voltages and currents?

 

[malibu101]

I always wondered how the transformers maintain their insulation in the windings, seeing such high voltages and currents?

Most are oil cooled. The oil has a high dielectric strength. "Newer" trans formers are filled with a sort of mineral oil. "Older" trans had oil that contained PCB's.
Dry type trans have a varnished paper insulator usually along with ceramic and composite materials that insulate the windings.

 

[Torque1st]

I always wondered how the transformers maintain their insulation in the windings, seeing such high voltages and currents?

They are also carefully designed and wound to keep high potential parts away from each other. There is only a small potential difference from one wire in the winding to the next one.

 

[dipper]

When i did my service upgrade from 100a to 200a, the electician( i worked
part time for him during college) i used disconnected and reconnected
the lines at the weather head live. He uses special crimps to connect the
wires together that i think were supplied by the POCO. Either way, having
a homeowner do that is crazy. I would be calling an electrician to do it or have
the POCO come back out.

 

[burleymike]

When I did mine I called the city told then I wanted to have them move the service to my new meter and within 30 min they came out and disconnected and reconnected to the new meter. The guys used some type of rubber glove. They each blew air into their glove first to check for pinholes. They got the gloves out of new packages I guess they don't reuse those.

They did not pull the fuse on the transformer before doing this. Though these guys are the linemen for the city and do hot work all the time.

If I were you I would call the state regulatory agency about what the POCO told you. I have never heard of that before. That is their job and they ought to be doing it as it is life safety at stake.

 

[GarageEnvy]

I wouldn't even consider doing this yourself! I swapped power about 2 months ago. PG&E approved the new location, the electrician installed new box and mast, inspector approved the location and then it was OK for the meter to be installed and power reconnected. The regulation was PG&E had to do it but my electrician did the disconnect because he didn't want to wait. He's a 30+ year veteran and works with the PG&E guys all the time. They were OK with it since it was him but otherwise it would have been an issue. I'd put this one in the never category for DIY.

 

[tuber]

The ones near the factory where I work have dropped out on occasion, and they were relatched from the ground with a fiberglass pole by the lineman. They seem to just get spit out and swing loose upon overload or shorts.

Squirrels are the biggest culprits around here for shorting those pole fuses - quite the sound when they pop - poor squirrels never get a chance to make that mistake twice.

 

[malibu101]

In my parts the powco will come to cut and crimp new splices on, when convienient for them but maybe not for you after the inspector passes it.
That crimp is their responsibility and the end of their stuff, everything downstream is the customers.
Their are contractors who are recognized by the powco to do the same hot crimp/splice that can do a changeout and immediatly swap power over to the new one. Of course even a powco recognized contractor must still provide proof of passing the local inspection.
Non-powco recognized contractors often do the same hot spice but the powco comes behind and does it with their crimps.
That's in my area, yours will surely vary.

 

[Jarcese]

Usually you will not blow a fuse if you get the wrong wires together. The wires will have to weld together and draw continuous fault current, most times they blow apart. If the transformer has a secondary breaker you have a pretty good chance of tripping it if you mess up though.

Have a lineman do it unless the company refuses to do the work in your area. At the very least have an electrician do it. Our company doesn't allow electricians to do the work, but they do it all the time. Electricians almost always use inferior connections and then people complain to me when i have to come out a couple years later after the power goes out.

Gloves get changed every month, you probably saw them on the day when they received a new pair. They're too expensive to throw out after each use.

And don"t try that tree trimmer trick. I had a job where an old guy wrapped his trimmer around the service. Needless to say there was nothing left of his trimmer blades.

 

[ddawg16]

This is Detroit Edison (DTE) by the way...

Glad you cleared that up.....I really wish members would put at least the state they live in on the profile......

In CA....the electric company does it all....but only after they get a call from the inspector....

When I upgraded my my panel from 60A to 200A....I put in a new panel and weather head...power company did everything else....no charge....

 

[Torque1st]

And don"t try that tree trimmer trick. I had a job where an old guy wrapped his trimmer around the service. Needless to say there was nothing left of his trimmer blades.

That is why the lines are cut ONE at a time. Shorting the entire bundle by cutting them together WILL vaporize some blades...

A live outlet will kill a person just as quick as working on a service live. Kill the power first, -before it kills you.

 

[sdowney717]

all you would need are bolt cutters and gloves to drop the line. Cut it right next to where the crimp sleeve is.
Cut one at a time.
In VA, a fax is sent to Dominion Power from the Code office telling them everything is ready to go for the switch over.

Dominion will give you a new 200 amp or 400 amp meter base, all you do is drive to their warehouse and ask for one.
They hold onto the meters

I have an extra one in the garage, is there anything I can use it for?
It has some nice big lugs.

 

[cowboyjosh]

This topic reminds me what I was told a long time ago from a customer who called us for a minor electrical problem he said "If I can't see it, and it can kill me, I don't f*ck with it, no matter what, I'll use the two best tools I own to fix electric, I'll use my phone to call your *** and my checkbook to pay you once the work is done".

 

[Norcal]

all you would need are bolt cutters and gloves to drop the line. Cut it right next to where the crimp sleeve is.
Cut one at a time.
In VA, a fax is sent to Dominion Power from the Code office telling them everything is ready to go for the switch over.

Dominion will give you a new 200 amp or 400 amp meter base, all you do is drive to their warehouse and ask for one.
They hold onto the meters

I have an extra one in the garage, is there anything I can use it for?
It has some nice big lugs.

Cutting a live line w/ bolt cutters? You have the beginnings of a Darwin Award submission, a greedy trial lawyer would make some good money off a power company who told a unlicensed, untrained,unqualified, DIYer to tie into a service drop, that even a electrician as a employee is not allowed by OSHA to do that.

Bad bad idea to do that....