Making a permanent 100' generator "extension" circuit outside

[Noltz]

I've recently finished running a generator inlet box setup on my home with an interlock plate, and it's working great. Now I need a permanent home for my 250lb generator. Initially I wanted to build a lean-to shed and house it about 10' from the inlet box. But now I'm thinking of putting it in the bigger yard shed, about 80' from the inlet box instead. There's pro's and con's to each location. I've attached a rough diagram.

What would you recommend for this run? I intend to stay here for 10+ years. Generator is 9000w running, 50A capable (current inlet box is 30A). I'd use my 20' extension cord (or a new shorter one) to make the final connection when the generator is needed. Upping to 50A inlet *might* happen, but not likely.

Thanks!!

 

[brewchief]

Re: Making a permanent 100' generator "extension" circuit outside

I would probably remove the current inlet box and replace with a junction box and then bury pvc conduit to the shed and mount the power inlet at the shed, pull 3 #8and 1#10 and be done. The alternative would be to build a long cord to roll out as needed, if you price out large soow cordage I think you will be in excess of 300$ to 400$ to build a cord that long.

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

 

[Noltz]

SOOW cord option is pretty much out. It's $400-500 here with the ends, heavy enough that my wife would struggle on her own.

Pisses me off to waste $50 on the inlet box but if I can get 40A into the house on a buried connection, maybe it's worth it.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

the current 30a inlet is too small as it is unless your generator has a 30a outlet which wouldnt make sense on a 9000w genny

 

[pwhittle]

Not sure if a $300 cord works for you.


Southwire 19190008 6/3 & 8/1 SEOW 50 Amp, 125/250-Volt Outdoor Extension Cord CA-Style CS63 Twist-Lock, Custom Blended Jacket, Extra Hard Usage Cord, 100-Feet, 100-Foot, Black
by Toolup
Learn more: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002899ZC/?tag=atomicindus08-20


Sent from my iPad using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[mike93lx]

run a length of 1" PVC conduit with four individual pieces of xhhw aluminum.

#6 is $0.20 at foot plus shipping in the US, no idea what that would be in canadian pesos.

 

[Noltz]

Not sure if a $300 cord works for you.


Southwire 19190008 6/3 & 8/1 SEOW 50 Amp, 125/250-Volt Outdoor Extension Cord CA-Style CS63 Twist-Lock, Custom Blended Jacket, Extra Hard Usage Cord, 100-Feet, 100-Foot, Black
by Toolup
Learn more: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002899ZC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

That'd be the easiest solution, but it comes to $624 CDN Dollarydoos by the time I get it, for a one-use cord. I just can't justify it. I've found them down around $570CDN up here. If I'm going to spend $600, I'd like it to be as turn-key as possible.

 

[theoldwizard1]

the current 30a inlet is too small as it is unless your generator has a 30a outlet which wouldnt make sense on a 9000w genny

9000 W @ 240V is 37.5A. The question really is, what size is the breaker on the generator ? I have seen some generators with two 240V outlets. One L14-30R and one 6-50R (obviously for a welder).

If the inlet is a L14-30 and the OP is using an L14-30 outlet that is protected by a 30A breaker at the generator he can use cordage that is sized for 30A @ 100'.

Cordage is typically "upgraded" one size from standard wiring so at least 8 AWG. 8/4 SOOW is about $1.90/ft. Over $200 with L14-30 M and F ends.

MHF 2-2-4-6 is even cheaper, about $1.05/ft.

If, instead, he changes the inlet box to a Jbox and runs 100' of 10/3 UF and installs the inlet in the shed it is about $1.15/ft.

MHF 2-2-4-6 is even cheaper, about $1.05/ft. Over kill but cheaper.

 

[brewchief]

I didn't notice the OP was from Canada, in that case tec 90 cable might be an option, 10-3 w/ground for 30 amp or step up to 8-3w/ ground and a 50 amp inlet if he wants to take full advantage.

A good wheel kit on the generator will be the cheapest route, often we know when the possibility of a power outage is coming due to weather and one could preemptively move the generator into a convenient location and cover it so it's as ready as possible.

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

 

[mike93lx]

9000 W @ 240V is 37.5A. The question really is, what size is the breaker on the generator ? I have seen some generators with two 240V outlets. One L14-30R and one 14-50R (obviously for a welder).

If the inlet is a L14-30 and the OP is using an L14-30 outlet that is protected by a 30A breaker at the generator he can use cordage that is sized for 30A @ 100'.

Cordage is typically "upgraded" one size from standard wiring so at least 8 AWG. 8/4 SOOW is about $1.90/ft. Over $200 with L14-30 M and F ends.

MHF 2-2-4-6 is even cheaper, about $1.05/ft.

If, instead, he changes the inlet box to a Jbox and runs 100' of 10/3 UF and installs the inlet in the shed it is about $1.15/ft.

MHF 2-2-4-6 is even cheaper, about $1.05/ft. Over kill but cheaper.

No welder uses a 14-50. Why would that be an obvious application?

 

[sberry]

I would be piping it 8 most likely and probably buy a roll. If in was going to cord and plug would score a mobile home cord and cover it a few ft away if it was doable. If I move it farther would bury, prolly direct mhf if ground permitted, simple and cheap and distance absolutely moot.
Even wide open wire loaded to 50%. No loss for motor starts.

 

[theoldwizard1]

No welder uses a 14-50.

Thanks! My bad. 6-50.

 

[Renegade1LI]

See if you can find some aluminum service entrance cable on eBay or market place and bury it with box at shed. 6-6-6 around here is 50 cents a foot, that’s new, bury it in pvc.

 

[Noltz]

9000 W @ 240V is 37.5A. The question really is, what size is the breaker on the generator ? I have seen some generators with two 240V outlets. One L14-30R and one 6-50R (obviously for a welder).

If the inlet is a L14-30 and the OP is using an L14-30 outlet that is protected by a 30A breaker at the generator he can use cordage that is sized for 30A @ 100'.

Cordage is typically "upgraded" one size from standard wiring so at least 8 AWG. 8/4 SOOW is about $1.90/ft. Over $200 with L14-30 M and F ends.

MHF 2-2-4-6 is even cheaper, about $1.05/ft.

If, instead, he changes the inlet box to a Jbox and runs 100' of 10/3 UF and installs the inlet in the shed it is about $1.15/ft.

MHF 2-2-4-6 is even cheaper, about $1.05/ft. Over kill but cheaper.

Generator has a 14-50 outlet with a 50A CB. It also has a L14-30 with a 30A CB. Along with two pairs of 120s. Ideally I'd run this run to carry 50A to the house. I could then bond it to the 8-3 that feeds the load center. Can 8-3 carry 50A? Because if so that's the answer to my problem.

I didn't notice the OP was from Canada, in that case tec 90 cable might be an option, 10-3 w/ground for 30 amp or step up to 8-3w/ ground and a 50 amp inlet if he wants to take full advantage.

A good wheel kit on the generator will be the cheapest route, often we know when the possibility of a power outage is coming due to weather and one could preemptively move the generator into a convenient location and cover it so it's as ready as possible.

I priced Teck about 4 months ago for a buddy and it came in around $8.50/M. He used it for a Tesla charger up north. Your second suggestion is how I'm set up now. I'd just like a turn key solution for the missus because our power usually goes out because someone hit a pole or a transformer fuse blew.

See if you can find some aluminum service entrance cable on eBay or market place and bury it with box at shed. 6-6-6 around here is 50 cents a foot, that’s new, bury it in pvc.

Hmm... I like that price. I hadn't considered aluminum because I've ONLY used copper. I need to do some reading on how to join it to the 8-3 Romex that feeds my load center. At least then I can use 40A of the service. Unless I'm allowed to put a 50A breaker on that 8-3 (it would not be continuous 50A, just startup loads).?

 

[sberry]

You got to have 4 wires.

 

[Renegade1LI]

I don’t think so on a generator, I’ll check with son who is a licensed electrician.

 

[pattenp]

See if you can find some aluminum service entrance cable on eBay or market place and bury it with box at shed. 6-6-6 around here is 50 cents a foot, that’s new, bury it in pvc.

Service entrance (SE) cable is not approved to be underground.

 

[mike93lx]

I don’t think so on a generator, I’ll check with son who is a licensed electrician.

If you want 120v and 240v, you certainly do

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I don’t think so on a generator, I’ll check with son who is a licensed electrician.

you need 4-wires if you want to serve both 120v and 240v loads- 2 hots, neutral and EGC/ground.

There is no other option for this.

 

[Renegade1LI]

Service entrance (SE) cable is not approved to be underground.

Fyi, it’s called USE, underground service entrance, use alot in ny.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Fyi, it’s called USE, underground service entrance, use alot in ny.

SE (U or R) is NOT the same as USE

SEU and SER, which has an outer sheath, is NOT permitted for use underground. USE does not have an outer sheath...

 

[sberry]

This isn't service entrance.

 

[pattenp]

Fyi, it’s called USE, underground service entrance, use alot in ny.

FYI.... if you'd said underground service entrance (USE) in the first place I wouldn't have commented.

 

[pattenp]

This isn't service entrance.

And what's your point?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

This isn't service entrance.

service entrance cable such as USE, SEU or SER is not reserved solely for meter to main service panel connections so your comment has no bearing here.

People use USE to feed buildings and SER to feed subpanels all the time.

 

[Renegade1LI]

FYI.... if you'd said underground service entrance (USE) in the first place I wouldn't have commented.

My apologies, I should have been more specific, not trying to be a wise guy. Sometimes you just take things for granted, it does make a affordable install.

 

[pattenp]

Sometimes the draw back to USE is it's not allowed to enter the structure per the NEC and must be terminated outside.

 

[Noltz]

I have my electrical supplier pricing out underground rated aluminum. He's asking if 6 AWG is sufficient or do I want to do 4. And I'm still curious is I'm allowed to put a 50A CB on the 17M run of 8-3 that feeds the panel, or is 40 the limit for 8 gauge copper.

Also does anyone have preferred connectors to bond the aluminum to copper?

 

[mike93lx]

I have my electrical supplier pricing out underground rated aluminum. He's asking if 6 AWG is sufficient or do I want to do 4. And I'm still curious is I'm allowed to put a 50A CB on the 17M run of 8-3 that feeds the panel, or is 40 the limit for 8 gauge copper.

Also does anyone have preferred connectors to bond the aluminum to copper?

If you get xhhw, it can go inside the building, but it requires conduit end to end

 

[Noltz]

If you get xhhw, it can go inside the building, but it requires conduit end to end

I'll make sure to verify it's acceptable then. The physical connection will be in an exterior junction box. Does that change anything from what you see?

 

[mike93lx]

I'll make sure to verify it's acceptable then. The physical connection will be in an exterior junction box. Does that change anything from what you see?

If it doesn't need to go inside, then you can use URD. If you are going to run conduit anyway, xhhw is best, IMO

Why are you connecting to copper? Just run the wire the whole way

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I have my electrical supplier pricing out underground rated aluminum. He's asking if 6 AWG is sufficient or do I want to do 4. And I'm still curious is I'm allowed to put a 50A CB on the 17M run of 8-3 that feeds the panel, or is 40 the limit for 8 gauge copper.

Also does anyone have preferred connectors to bond the aluminum to copper?

Depends on what kind of wire it is

#8 NM-b is limited to 40a

#8 THWN is good for 50a.

you said 8-3 which implies NM-b

 

[Noltz]

If it doesn't need to go inside, then you can use URD. If you are going to run conduit anyway, xhhw is best, IMO

Why are you connecting to copper? Just run the wire the whole way

Because I've already run 8-3 Romex from my LC to my generator inlet in one continuous run. I was not expecting to buy this big a generator. I was expecting 5-6k, and ended up with a 9k/12k surge. I wanted to take advantage of the increased power available for loads like the AC. Its not critical. I've run the house on the 30A and the meter shows ~9A draw with normal loads (TVs, computers, lights, maybe coffee maker?).

Depends on what kind of wire it is

#8 NM-b is limited to 40a

#8 THWN is good for 50a.

you said 8-3 which implies NM-b

Yep, Romex. Even 40A is better than the 30A cap though. Thanks for chiming in again.

 

[sberry]

And what's your point?

You made my point later, second it was in reference to something earlier about 3 wire, it's not service entrance,,,,
That statement seems simple enough but maybe I should type slower. It's all I said.. someone said,, well if it was service, I said,, well its not. Seems somewhat obvious but maybe not.
Not everything allowed for service may apply.

 

[sberry]

In the grand scheme if I had the 8 cable on my own would use it, can always install a 40 but on the genset here ain't gonna mean squat, would burn that little ****** up long before the wire would be an issue .
The genset isn't really gonna make any more power from it's 30A than it's 50. Does it have a breaker for each? The main reason here for a better wire is mostly motor starts, the gen is poor compared to line, smaller wire at 100 ft doesnt help it. The breaker on the other end is the overload, it's really not gonna do anything to protect wire in this case but the gen, mostly in the case of sudden overload but that doesn't always/usually happen. I had a 40 on a 10k a while back, forgot to turn a load off, burned a contactor, in the equipment, no breaker trip, nothing.
I am not even sure what would happen in the event of a fault on the 50 line, not sure it would have the poop to pop a breaker.

 

[Noltz]

In the grand scheme if I had the 8 cable on my own would use it, can always install a 40 but on the genset here ain't gonna mean squat, would burn that little ****** up long before the wire would be an issue .
The genset isn't really gonna make any more power from it's 30A than it's 50. Does it have a breaker for each? The main reason here for a better wire is mostly motor starts, the gen is poor compared to line, smaller wire at 100 ft doesnt help it. The breaker on the other end is the overload, it's really not gonna do anything to protect wire in this case but the gen, mostly in the case of sudden overload but that doesn't always/usually happen. I had a 40 on a 10k a while back, forgot to turn a load off, burned a contactor, in the equipment, no breaker trip, nothing.
I am not even sure what would happen in the event of a fault on the 50 line, not sure it would have the poop to pop a breaker.

I haven't bought anything at this point. I'm just deciding if it's worth moving it to the bigger shed (farther away for noise, shed is already built). Yes the genny has separate breakers for 30 and 50 outputs. There's also the slight advantage of the corollary effect longer lines have on noise for sensitive electronics, but I haven't had any issues running on the 25' 30A cord. Furnaces (home and garage) both kicked on. New fridge and old freezers kicked on. All the lights worked and the computers were happy.

I think I'm just adding too much complexity here and should just build a little generator hut beside the garage. Closer to the house, no trenching, closer to the gas line if I want to go that route...

 

[mike93lx]

I haven't bought anything at this point. I'm just deciding if it's worth moving it to the bigger shed (farther away for noise, shed is already built). Yes the genny has separate breakers for 30 and 50 outputs. There's also the slight advantage of the corollary effect longer lines have on noise for sensitive electronics, but I haven't had any issues running on the 25' 30A cord. Furnaces (home and garage) both kicked on. New fridge and old freezers kicked on. All the lights worked and the computers were happy.

I think I'm just adding too much complexity here and should just build a little generator hut beside the garage. Closer to the house, no trenching, closer to the gas line if I want to go that route...

Keeping it close also makes it easier to monitor, start, stop, refuel, etc. Trudging all the way out there in the middle of winter would not be fun

 

[Kevin Essiambre]

Re: Making a permanent 100' generator "extension" circuit outside

Hey OP,

You're from Ontario Canada, I'm an electrician in Ontario Canada...

Price out 6/3 ACWU cable. It's similar to TECK90 except with aluminum conductors, and only 1 waterproof sheath.

For splicing aluminum to copper, use Polaris taps. Most are approved for copper to aluminum, just make sure to buy the ones that are and are good for the size range you need.

you aren't withing a couple hour drive of Ottawa are you? Monday I'll price out 6/3 ACWU from my supplier, as I may get a Better price than you... but thats useless if I can't get it to you haha

I'd put a junction box where the inlet is on the house and relocate the inlet to the end of the cable. Would pass inspection too if you took out a permit... just need to ensure that the cable has mechanical protection from damage if installed in an area such as a driveway/near vehicular traffic.

Edit to add more... non vehicle traffic areas, cables need to be buried 18" to the top of the cable from grade. This can be reduced to 12" with the addition of a pressure treated 2x6 (or maybe 2x4, I'd have to check the code book...) covering the cable. If you don't want to dig a trench, you can strap the cable to the fence as long as it's not subject to mechanical damage.... but you may need a small trench to get to the fence. Nearly all cables and conduit buried in the ground are supposed to be backfilled both below the cable and above it with screened sand so there are no large rocks or anything that bay damage the cable... but when it comes to TECK90 and ACWU, most/all inspectors i have dealt with are absolutely fine without screened sand, as long as we do not backfill with huge rocks (which, even with sand still happens...).

I can do my best with helping you out on this should you need any additional information or help.

Cheers
~Kevin.

 

[The Cobbler]

^^^^ here is a good example of why general locations in your profile can help.
I have some 1/4 aluminum teck type cable I think about 80' and it may be looking for a home

4x 1 gauge and 1 x 4 gauge

 

[Noltz]

Hey OP,

You're from Ontario Canada, I'm an electrician in Ontario Canada...

Price out 6/3 ACWU cable. It's similar to TECK90 except with aluminum conductors, and only 1 waterproof sheath.

For splicing aluminum to copper, use Polaris taps. Most are approved for copper to aluminum, just make sure to buy the ones that are and are good for the size range you need.

you aren't withing a couple hour drive of Ottawa are you? Monday I'll price out 6/3 ACWU from my supplier, as I may get a Better price than you... but thats useless if I can't get it to you haha

I'd put a junction box where the inlet is on the house and relocate the inlet to the end of the cable. Would pass inspection too if you took out a permit... just need to ensure that the cable has mechanical protection from damage if installed in an area such as a driveway/near vehicular traffic.

Edit to add more... non vehicle traffic areas, cables need to be buried 18" to the top of the cable from grade. This can be reduced to 12" with the addition of a pressure treated 2x6 (or maybe 2x4, I'd have to check the code book...) covering the cable. If you don't want to dig a trench, you can strap the cable to the fence as long as it's not subject to mechanical damage.... but you may need a small trench to get to the fence. Nearly all cables and conduit buried in the ground are supposed to be backfilled both below the cable and above it with screened sand so there are no large rocks or anything that bay damage the cable... but when it comes to TECK90 and ACWU, most/all inspectors i have dealt with are absolutely fine without screened sand, as long as we do not backfill with huge rocks (which, even with sand still happens...).

I can do my best with helping you out on this should you need any additional information or help.

Cheers
~Kevin.

You are a gentleman and a scholar, good sir! I'm down in Burlington, 45 minutes from Toronto, but I do have a good buddy working at an electrical supply house nearby and he's been helping me gather materials for my electrical needs. I've forwarded your spec suggestion but I'm curious if that would be rated for a 50A inlet? I can attach to the fence, and it will be replaced in 2 years so I can have the new one built with provisions to attach it nice and low, trimmed for protection from weed eaters / mowers. There is no vehicle access in the back yard.

^^^^ here is a good example of why general locations in your profile can help.
I have some 1/4 aluminum teck type cable I think about 80' and it may be looking for a home

4x 1 gauge and 1 x 4 gauge

If that were 20' longer I'd be asking for your phone number. I measured it out and 95 is the absolute minimum to make this work. I really do appreciate the offer though. I've been watching Kijiji for used wire.