Massive plumbing issue
- Thread starter Shriner
- Start date
A lot of good ideas, thank you. I did think of BillK's idea previously and my thought process is to try to have 4" "vents" open on the floor above near the cavities which contain the supplies in order for these to be conditioned spaces. Then put closed cell spray foam in the garage from bottom of ceiling joist until we reached the required R-49 value. If we have to drop the garage ceiling 1-3", I guess there are greater tragedies. I have no idea if this will satisfy the County, but it is really my only reasonable solution. At the end of the day, I will be heating the garage after the occupancy permit is issued so frozen pipes are not a concern for me. Let's see how Tuesday's meeting goes.
Yes, I have proposed the variance idea. I am an attorney so am very familiar with hold harmless agreements. The plumbing inspector initially said yes, then days later said he would want the hold harmless from me AND a letter from an architect. Highly doubt I will be able to get the architect letter...
Yes, I have proposed the variance idea. I am an attorney so am very familiar with hold harmless agreements. The plumbing inspector initially said yes, then days later said he would want the hold harmless from me AND a letter from an architect. Highly doubt I will be able to get the architect letter...
racecougar
Well-known member
Agreed. I don't understand why the supplies need to be in the floor here.
CraigStu
Well-known member
"Yes, you could probably do that re-routing at SIGNIFICANT cost and tearing out walls, but you still could not avoid toilet supply and tub supply being in the ceiling joists. Eventually the supplies have to get below the floor."
As others have questioned this so do I. I have seen plenty of toilets w/ the supply coming from the floor but there was always 12" of exposed pipe so it didn't HAVE to come from the floor. I suppose there may be tubs configured so the supply comes from the floor but if that is your case, how about a different tub? I know you don't want to redecorate but how about go w/ an industrial look and surface mount the supply pipes? Check the box stores for pipe made for use in building shelves and stuff. This is prebuilt but gives the idea.
Your supply pipes can be left as is or painted to match the wall to make them less obvious.
As others have questioned this so do I. I have seen plenty of toilets w/ the supply coming from the floor but there was always 12" of exposed pipe so it didn't HAVE to come from the floor. I suppose there may be tubs configured so the supply comes from the floor but if that is your case, how about a different tub? I know you don't want to redecorate but how about go w/ an industrial look and surface mount the supply pipes? Check the box stores for pipe made for use in building shelves and stuff. This is prebuilt but gives the idea.
Your supply pipes can be left as is or painted to match the wall to make them less obvious.
Like others have said its difficult to brainstorm a solution without a visual idea of the Floorplan. Could a "chase" be built on the backside of the garage if it "T's" off next to a exterior wall of the home and the plumbing be run up the wall of the old exterior side which is now interior because of the added chase. It could double for HVAC, or make it even bigger and it could act as a storage area with a door on both floors.
Just to clarify all the questions about re-routing; it would be difficult for me to describe the layout but the bathroom is on the far end of the addition, which is above the garage. To get water from the original portion of the house to the bathroom, you have to go through the ceiling or floor, no other way around it. Walls would be blocked by a hallway. Ceiling and exterior walls are clearly forbidden per code over here. The garage ceiling is the grey area.
Tub faucet is similar to this:
The supplies are below floor.
Tub faucet is similar to this:
The supplies are below floor.
Wiz02
Well-known member
Does anyone know the reasoning behind disallowing heat in a garage? If it's a concern about combustion, then why not allow heatpump, mini-split or electric baseboards?
75gmck25
Well-known member
It's my understanding that in some areas they don't simply say you cannot heat a garage (if the system is safe, and properly installed).
However, if you do heat it, then it's now inspected and must meet all code requirement for living space (air infiltration, insulation, wiring, etc.). It is designed to prevent someone doing a budget conversion of a garage to a family room or bedroom by just adding a heater.
Now for a possibly crazy question. If you foamed your roof deck with the required thickness of insulation, and closed up all the exterior vents, and then removed the ceiling insulation on the room below, it's my understanding that your attic now becomes conditioned space. For code purposes it's now more like a basement. Does that mean you still cannot install water lines there?
However, if you do heat it, then it's now inspected and must meet all code requirement for living space (air infiltration, insulation, wiring, etc.). It is designed to prevent someone doing a budget conversion of a garage to a family room or bedroom by just adding a heater.
Now for a possibly crazy question. If you foamed your roof deck with the required thickness of insulation, and closed up all the exterior vents, and then removed the ceiling insulation on the room below, it's my understanding that your attic now becomes conditioned space. For code purposes it's now more like a basement. Does that mean you still cannot install water lines there?
Old tool guy
Well-known member
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- Apr 13, 2023
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that would involve dropping the ceiling by roughly twelve inches in order to have R49 below the water supplies. I simply cannot lose twelve inches in the garage,
If you lose 12” of headroom … what does that leave? Is it a question of “can’t” or “don’t want to”?
If you lose 12” of headroom … what does that leave? Is it a question of “can’t” or “don’t want to”?
75gmck25 is correct regarding hearting the garage. It basically is an "energy efficiency" issue per the County. When the garage door is opened, the heat goes out. I believe the same thing happens when you open the front door! You would have to insulate the garage, including overhead doors to meet an interior space; meet the blow test of having certain air infiltration, etc. My guess is the vast majority of heated garages were done without permits.
Sturgeon - Yes, the joists are drilled out for the copper to pass through. They are 14" wood I-Beams.
Sturgeon - Yes, the joists are drilled out for the copper to pass through. They are 14" wood I-Beams.
Don't want to. If I can't fit a lift with two cars, the garage (which is the reason I bought the house) has essentially lost its purpose for me.
Old tool guy
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- Apr 13, 2023
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Ok, so looking at it from the outside, from the insurance or permit pov … there is a viable solution, you just don’t want to accept it. Not saying you’re wrong, just that your basis is eroded. If the lowered ceiling left you with … 7 ft … of headroom, it would clearly be a deal breaker. But not beingvable to install a lift?
But why would it take 12”? you can build a rated ceiling in just a few inches.
Correct, this is garage journal, nobody wants to lose 12" of garage height! R-49 is roughly 14" thick and we need to be below the water supplies. We might be able to save some inches if we do spray foam, we are looking into that, but I don't have much room to lose and be able to stack cars.
The new codes are pretty robust as far as where you can put water supplies and what insulation is required. R-49 is the minimum they will accept just in between garage ceiling and floor above. Zone 5.
racecougar
Well-known member
Does it have to be R-49 across the entire garage ceiling, or just the envelope containing the water lines? Could you drop into that cavity to cross your hallway, then get back into the upstairs interior wall(s)?
Per County, the entire ceiling has to be R-49. They will not budge on that.
racecougar
Well-known member
With or without plumbing in place?
Correct, regardless of plumbing, ceiling must be R-49. The firefighters broke up multiple ceilings throughout the home and those attic spaces now all have to be upgraded to R-49.
racecougar
Well-known member
Still following my logic above, could you not insulate the entire ceiling with R-49, and only drop the ceiling down where necessary to get your plumbing across the hallway?
Isn't closed cell R7.5 per inch?
What are your floor joists?
How are unfinished basements (which I assume have plumbing) handled?
I feel like someone is misinterpreting the code in this situation, otherwise it all seems very ridiculous
What are your floor joists?
How are unfinished basements (which I assume have plumbing) handled?
I feel like someone is misinterpreting the code in this situation, otherwise it all seems very ridiculous
GrayFlattop
Well-known member
Out of curiosity, what city / county?
But in a way, it doesn't matter as the inspector holds the cards. Do what they want, then after you get the occupancy permit, do whatever YOU want.
Heated garages aren't allowed, well that's just wrong.
But in a way, it doesn't matter as the inspector holds the cards. Do what they want, then after you get the occupancy permit, do whatever YOU want.
Heated garages aren't allowed, well that's just wrong.
Cross linked polyethylene ( PEX ) is Illinois State code legal, has to be an amendment filed with the state to prohibit it.
Approved Materials for Water Distribution Pipe
| 1) | Brass Pipe2 | ASTM B 43-2009 |
| 2) | Chlorinated Polyvinyl Chloride2 (CPVC) Pipe/Tubing | ASTM D 2846/D 2846M-2009be1 |
| ASTM F 441/F 441M-2012 | ||
| ASTM F 442/F 442M-2012 | ||
| CSA B137.6-2009 in B137 | |
| Joints | ASTM D 2846/D 2846M-2009be1 | |
| CSA B137.6-2009 in B137 | |
| Solvent Cement1 | ASTM F 493-2010 | |
| CSA B137.6-2009 in B137 | ||
| 3) | Copper/Copper Alloy Pipe2 | ASTM B 42-2010 |
| ASTM B 302-2012 AWWA C606-2011 | ||
| 4) | Copper/Copper Alloy Tubing2 | ASTM B 88-2009 |
| 5) | Cross Linked Polyethylene2 | ASTM F 876-2013a |
| Distribution Systems Joints | ASTM F 877-2011a ASTM F 1807-2012 ASTM F 1960-2012 ASTM F 2080-2012 ASTM F 2098-2008 ASTM F 2159-2011 ASSE 1061-2011 | |
| CSA B137.5-2009 in B137 | |
| ||
| 6) | Galvanized Steel Pipe2 | ASTM A 53-2012 AWWA C606-2011 |
| 7) | Poly Butylene (PB) Pipe/Tubing2 | |
| ||
| CSA B137.8-2009 in B137 | ||
| 8) | Polypropylene Pipe2 | ASTM F 2389-2010 |
| 9) | Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) Pipe2, 3 | ANSI/NEMA Z535.1-2006 (R2011) ASTM D 1785-2012 |
| | ASTM D 2241-2009 |
| ASTM D 2672-2009 | ||
| CSA B137.3-2009 in B137 | ||
| Joints | ASTM D 2855-2010 ASTM F 441/F 441M-2012 | |
| CSA B137.2-2009 in B137 | ||
| CSA B137.3-2009 in B137 | ||
| Primer | ASTM F 656-2010 | |
| Solvent Cement1 | ASTM D 2564-2012 | |
| CSA B137.3-2009 in B137 | ||
| 10) | Stainless Steel Pipe2 | ASTM A 312/A 312M-2012 ASTM A 403/A 403M-2012 ASTM A 511/A 511M-2012 |
| 11) | Welded Copper Water Tube2 | ASTM B 447-2012a WK, WL and WM |
| 12) | Solder | ASTM B 32-2008 |
Agency Notes: 1 Solvent cement must be handled in accordance with ASTM F 402-1988. 2 Water distribution pipe must meet the appropriate NSF standard for potable water. Plastic shall be rated at 160 psi at 73.4 degrees Fahrenheit. 3 Use for cold or tempered water only. 4 ASME B.1.20.1-1983. 5 Safety Color. |
I'm a retired Plumber in Cook Co., I'm trying to find the provision in the code about unconditioned spaces. I've done 100's of homes in Will, DuPage, Kane, Lake, and Cook Co., with plumbing waste and water lines in garage ceilings, must be something new they came up with. Anytime there was a doubt the HVAC guy would run some branches out to the plumbing, never had one freeze up that I know of. The state tried making a standard code years back and stop the local villages from having all kinds of weird amendments to it, it's possible they started letting the locals make up their own rules again. I just sent a text to the Schaumburg inspector about it.
Any chance the inspector is involved with TPI inspection services, they subcontract to some ares.
Only coming up with protecting traps from freezing, which a heat run would do, nothing seems to have changed in the wording on the IDPH website.
If they want R-49 in the garage ceiling below the conditioned space how much do they want in the attic above the conditioned space ?
Any chance the inspector is involved with TPI inspection services, they subcontract to some ares.
Only coming up with protecting traps from freezing, which a heat run would do, nothing seems to have changed in the wording on the IDPH website.
If they want R-49 in the garage ceiling below the conditioned space how much do they want in the attic above the conditioned space ?
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I’m just moving back home after a year of rebuilding from same. Pcustoms already described what we did. I have 2 garages under some bedrooms and the master bath. Radiant heat on the second floor as well but we can use pex. Spray foamed to r49 between the garage ceiling and second floor in the joist bays, r19 in the walls. Everything air sealed and fire caulked. Don’t know if they will allow that in your neck of the woods though.
To some of the others. Make sure you read the long form on your HO policy. In some cases your insurer only needs to make you whole to the condition the house was in on the date of the occurrence unless you have additional coverage. Without said additional they are not responsible to bring you up to new code such a rerouting the plumbing in this case. Not saying it can’t be done, depends on the adjuster and if there is any wiggle room in the exacatimate estimate to account for what you are doing. In some cases they may be able to finagle the depreciation to make things happen.
To the OP take tons of pictures they will come in handy later we took over 3000. It helped us when there were differences between what they estimated for and what reality was. I didn’t use a PA and wasn’t trying to screw the insurance either. I wound up GCing the job with my subs and was able to add a lot of value into the home that was not originally accounted for by their estimator/contractor. I wish you luck on the journey and if i can be of any help just ask. It ***** but you’ll get through it. Our appliances had a lead time of 9 months, cabinets 14-16 weeks , windows and doors 12 weeks. Hang in there bud.
To some of the others. Make sure you read the long form on your HO policy. In some cases your insurer only needs to make you whole to the condition the house was in on the date of the occurrence unless you have additional coverage. Without said additional they are not responsible to bring you up to new code such a rerouting the plumbing in this case. Not saying it can’t be done, depends on the adjuster and if there is any wiggle room in the exacatimate estimate to account for what you are doing. In some cases they may be able to finagle the depreciation to make things happen.
To the OP take tons of pictures they will come in handy later we took over 3000. It helped us when there were differences between what they estimated for and what reality was. I didn’t use a PA and wasn’t trying to screw the insurance either. I wound up GCing the job with my subs and was able to add a lot of value into the home that was not originally accounted for by their estimator/contractor. I wish you luck on the journey and if i can be of any help just ask. It ***** but you’ll get through it. Our appliances had a lead time of 9 months, cabinets 14-16 weeks , windows and doors 12 weeks. Hang in there bud.
If your plumber is on the ball it is possible to call an Illinois State Plumbing inspector to look at it, they can over rule the local guy if he's pulling things out of his ***. I did this once and didn't make friends with the inspector that they overruled, he became a big PITA on future inspections by him
niget2002
Well-known member
Couldn't you do a drop ceiling in the garage just where the pipes run? Run them around the edge of the garage so you don't lose the headroom in the middle.
dcg9381
Well-known member
Fur-down is what we call it. I've done it with HVAC vents.
Really appreciate the reply! Yes, this is something relatively new in DuPage (maybe State as well). No, the plumbing inspector is employed by the County directly. Are you saying it satisfies code to branch off ductwork to heat the joist cavities? If so, we could easily do that!
Thank you so much, really excellent information and appreciate the sentiment. This is basically what we are going to try to sell the inspector on; fingers crossed it works.
Our insurance company has been amazing. I actually just told her what was going on and she said to let her know if we need anything or if we need to move anything and she will cover the cost with an invoice. I asked her about code coverage and she said we have $68k so that is nice to know.
No, they needed floor plans, which I drew myself so I didn't have to wait any further on 3rd parties.
Guess I'll reply to myself as these are still open questions....
Ha! Sorry, I missed some! Yes, that is my understanding of closed cell as well. Floor joists are 14" wood I-Beams. With closed cell, we would need to drop the ceiling by roughly 4" to be 7" below the lowest water supply.
Every unfinished basement I have been in is still conditioned by the house HVAC; so not a cold zone. That is how Chicago basements are set up for the most part.
Why? Foam around the pipes and be done with it.
Interesting. I don't think I've ever been in a conditioned, unfinished basement in New England or New York State. Usually just a furnace ducted to the vents or a boiler plumbed to registers/radiator on the first floor.
They want R-49 below the water supply pipes. We shall see how the meeting goes next week.
Good luck. Thats either an asinine code requirement or someone is completely misinterpreting the code requirement.
nmk_61802
Well-known member
IPC does not prohibit installation in exterior walls, just says they must be freeze protected:
Unfortunately the 890.1210(a) is just a circular reference:
Insulating below the pipe and allowing the pipe to sit in the warm zone is a common method of freeze protection, but IPC does not recommend thickness. Again unfortunately it will be at the whim of the AHJ unless you can prove them wrong.
Unfortunately the 890.1210(a) is just a circular reference:
Insulating below the pipe and allowing the pipe to sit in the warm zone is a common method of freeze protection, but IPC does not recommend thickness. Again unfortunately it will be at the whim of the AHJ unless you can prove them wrong.