MaxJax Install - Anchors won't bite

[danieldd]

Got my detached garage built recently. Waited three months for the concrete to cure. 3000psi + fiber. Bought a new 5/8inch drill bit and a high dollar 7/8inch drill bit. Rented a rotary hammer drill and began work at 7:30 am this morning. Started early cause here in the South, it gets hot fast - topped out at 95 degrees today.

Anyway, 2 hours later, had all holes drilled as per instructions. One anchor for each of the posts refused to set. Appears that they are turning in the hole and won't bite. One post is located directly over the footer, which is at least 2 feet deep. I initially drilled to about 6-7 inches in this areas before driving the anchor in. There is no way I can drive this anchor thru the bottom of the concrete.

The concrete where the other post resides is only 5.5 inches deep, so no problem driving that one thru the bottom and starting over.

You smart guys got any ideas other then to place the columns in a different location and drill a new set of holes?

Also, I've read elsewhere on here that its a good idea to torque each of the anchors to 90ft/lbs without the posts in place to assure the anchors won't draw up. I haven't done this yet and would welcome any opinions on whether this is good practice. Currently I have only installed these anchors per instructions in the MaxJax manual. I didn't go the epoxy route because I believed that if it were the preferred route, Danmar would have explained this in their manual - which they didn't.

Going to call them Tuesday and see if they've got any ideas.

Man...I really don't want to drill a whole bunch of new holes..

 

[Chadwilliam1]

Are they wedge anchors? I assume they are. Put vise grips on top of the anchor, you might have to mash some threads to get it to hold. Or if you have alot of thread sticking out tighten two nuts together on top of the anchor. So you have three nuts on the anchor. 1 to draw the anchor tight and the other two to keep it from spinning.

You drill the same size hole as the wedge anchor. Is that what you did?

 

[Jvvmusme]

Epoxy.... A lot of exposy on all 10 anchord

 

[sgdawson]

Sounds like you are turning the bolt instead of the nut. The instructions I had were to hold the bolt with one wrench and turn the nut with another. The nut rests on a large washer on top of the concrete. This arrangement pulls the anchor straight up without rotating it.

 

[regguy1]

From MaxJax page link here: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=140674


I copied and pasted this from another post I made, I had some issues with the anchor installation this might be of help during your install:

Here's the update, I've got the lift installed and running. It looks like a nice unit. The power unit is quieter than I thought it would be. Installation was straight forward.

I think setting of the anchors is the most critical part of the installation procedure. A couple of things I'll mention from my experience of this one installation. Let me say this first, I'm not a pro lift installer and the following are my opinions only. Drill the holes as per instructions. Do a through job of cleaning the holes. Even though the supplied anchors (Wej-It PD58) are not specificly epoxy style units I'd recommend using a good quality epoxy for additional integrity of anchor bond to concrete. I coated the hole and the exterior of anchors before driving them in. Drive them the 5/8" below concrete as instructions call for, I wouldn't go less.

Now thread the sacraficial bolt with washer and nut finger tight into the anchor, hold the bolt head (you do not want the anchor to rotate in the hole) and tighten the nut to set the anchor, the lift instruction booklet says tighen until anchor is flush with the concrete surface.....The instructions that came in the box of anchors say no more than 4 turns for the 5/8" bolts size. I found that at about 3 turns I could feel the anchors bite hard into the concrete even though they were still 1/8" -3/16" below the surface of floor. I think it's fine (and even preferable) to leave them slightly down because when you tighten the bolts to the base plate if the anchor is not holding properly you'll realize it when torquing the bolts, but with the anchor flush it can contact the bottom of the base plate and feel tight even though not fully anchored in the hole.

Page 13 step 14 of the lift installation manual tells you to install anchor bolts to base plate and tighten 3 to 3 3/4 turns. I believe this is in error, the anchors have already been set with the bolt and nut procedure. These bolts should be torqued betweem 70-95 Ft Lbs according to Wej-it (95) and Dannmar (70).

I found it impossible to get 3+ turns after anchors were set and it caused a couple anchors to pull up (perhaps they rotated in the hole and lost grip ?) and I have to replace them.

I like the lift, it will be very useful in my shop.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[regguy1]

Sounds like you are turning the bolt instead of the nut. The instructions I had were to hold the bolt with one wrench and turn the nut with another. The nut rests on a large washer on top of the concrete. This arrangement pulls the anchor straight up without rotating it.

Quite possible, also if you didn't clean the holes well the concrete dust will cause the anchors to slip instead of bite....

 

[danieldd]

Quite possible, also if you didn't clean the holes well the concrete dust will cause the anchors to slip instead of bite....

I can't say the holes were perfectly clean I let my 19 year old son do it with a shop vac. Guess I should have followed up after him an insured the holes were well cleaned. Too late now, the damage has been done.

Also, I made sure the bolt did not turn. I turned only the nut, so I don't believe I was turning the anchor. I'm thinking the hole I drilled was not perfect (and I tried darn hard to make it perfect) and was larger than allowable enough for the anchor to not turn.

So, I agree I may have done something wrong, possibly. Question now is, how do I fix it?

 

[regguy1]

I can't say the holes were perfectly clean I let my 19 year old son do it with a shop vac. Guess I should have followed up after him an insured the holes were well cleaned. Too late now, the damage has been done.

Also, I made sure the bolt did not turn. I turned only the nut, so I don't believe I was turning the anchor. I'm thinking the hole I drilled was not perfect (and I tried darn hard to make it perfect) and was larger than allowable enough for the anchor to not turn.

So, I agree I may have done something wrong, possibly. Question now is, how do I fix it?

You should've drilled holes all the way through the concrete. Drive the anchors down into the dirt and start over. Dannmar sells epoxy anchor kit for reasonable price, or clean holes and try weg-it again. I'd clean the holes with a brush and wash them with soap and water, dry with heat gun if you're in a hurrry. I used epoxy on the weg anchors and they're like a rock in the floor.

Maybe you could use 2 deep sockets and a steel plate with a hole in the center to pull the anchor/s up (ones with no through hole)

 

[abstamaria]

Daniel,

What about trying to draw the problem anchors out by putting a very thick washer (or steel plate with a hole in it), with a hole diameter much wider than the anchor, over the hole? Then screw it out using the same method for setting it.

Andy

 

[WVBrady]

Daniel,

What about trying to draw the problem anchors out by putting a very thick washer (or steel plate with a hole in it), with a hole diameter much wider than the anchor, over the hole? Then screw it out using the same method for setting it.

Andy

This is what I did with my wedge anchors that were not holding. I think my concrete was super hard was the reason that they didn't hold. I had an expensive hammer drill that drilled my mother's concrete porch like putty, but my garage floor actually took minutes to drill one hole. I wound up using epoxy anchors.

 

[danieldd]

Daniel,

What about trying to draw the problem anchors out by putting a very thick washer (or steel plate with a hole in it), with a hole diameter much wider than the anchor, over the hole? Then screw it out using the same method for setting it.

Andy

Thanks Andy - good suggestion. I'll try this alternative and see what happens..

 

[A**holes Garage]

Step up to the next size bit and anchor, or use epoxy.

 

[sgdawson]

One anchor for each of the posts refused to set. Appears that they are turning in the hole and won't bite. ..

If you are holding the bolt steady (not turning it) and are turning the nut against the washer (which is resting on the concrete), then the anchor is either going to set or get "jacked" out of the hole. I'm not following what is happening with yours.

I found the straightness of the holes made a big difference. The ones I drilled with a laser guide to keep the bit vertical were much tighter (to the point of being difficult to insert the anchors) and the anchors wedged in place immediately. The first set I drilled were sloppier and the anchors did not bite immediately.

Also you definitely don't want the anchors flush with the surface. If the anchor contacts the bottom of the baseplate, then torquing the bolt down tells you nothing about the holding power of the anchor.

Good luck.

 

[danieldd]

If you are holding the bolt steady (not turning it) and are turning the nut against the washer (which is resting on the concrete), then the anchor is either going to set or get "jacked" out of the hole. I'm not following what is happening with yours.

I found the straightness of the holes made a big difference. The ones I drilled with a laser guide to keep the bit vertical were much tighter (to the point of being difficult to insert the anchors) and the anchors wedged in place immediately. The first set I drilled were sloppier and the anchors did not bite immediately.

Also you definitely don't want the anchors flush with the surface. If the anchor contacts the bottom of the baseplate, then torquing the bolt down tells you nothing about the holding power of the anchor.

Good luck.

Yes - I am tightening the nut against the washer and my son was holding the bolt steady - to make sure it didn't turn. The only reasons I can think of why mine failed is either the hole wasn't clean enough or I drilled a sloppy hole.

Laser guide - cool... How did you accomplish this?

 

[danieldd]

Just thought of something...

When I was drilling some of the holes, during the drilling with the 7/8ths bit, I would periodically lift the bit to help pull the concrete dust out of the hole. Maybe this contributed to the hole being larger than necessary.

If I screwed up because of doing this, then I didn't know to drill continuiously into the concrete.

 

[TennesseeZ]

Just thought of something...

When I was drilling some of the holes, during the drilling with the 7/8ths bit, I would periodically lift the bit to help pull the concrete dust out of the hole. Maybe this contributed to the hole being larger than necessary.

If I screwed up because of doing this, then I didn't know to drill continuiously into the concrete.

In my profession as a pipefitter, I have drilled literally hundreds of holes for anchors, and this is the way I always do it. If you just drill without lifting periodically you run the risk of getting the bit stuck and then you're really in trouble.
'

 

[Big-Foot]

A lot of times when boring a hole through concrete the tip of the bit is not strong enough to bore straight through a tough aggregate and will take a short detour, thereby making the hole a little larger than intended. I would put epoxy down that hole and give it a couple days to cure, then give it heck..

 

[Milton Shaw]

It's not been stated but make sure you use epoxy for anchoring bolts not just regular epoxy. Fastenall has caulking tube type epoxy for anchoring that has both parts in the tube and it mixes in the nozzle. A lot of other anchoring systems use an expensive two tube gun to dispense and mix the epoxy. Once you start a tube you need to be ready to use it all as it will set up in the mixing chamber. Clean all the dust out with extended reach air nozzle to get the dust out of the bottom of the holes.

 

[Daedalus]

Thread a nut over a washer on the anchor. Leave a gap and use a pry bar to pry against the washer. Either the anchor will come out, or the wedge will engage. The harder you pry, the more the anchor will engage. Tighten the nut while prying until it locks good. This can be done with the lift in place; pry against the base of the lift.

A vacuum is not the right way to clean out a blind concrete hole since there is no air flow. Use compressed air and/or a pipe brush.

 

[abstamaria]

I chickened out on drilling the holes for my MaxJax and hired an experienced contractor. They were very professional and so far the anchors seem to be holding (knock on wood). They cleaned the holes very carefully, using a hand pump with a tube that goes into the hole (obviously a special-purpose tool, partly seen in the photo below), a wire brush, and of course a vacuum cleaner.

Once you get the anchors out, Daniel, go for epoxy. There is a lot of material posted in this forum.

Good luck!

Andy

 

[abstamaria]

My apologies for the size of the photo. I can't seem to reduce it!

Andy

 

[dr bob]

Daniel--

In your post here you say that you used fibre-reincforced concrete. Guessing that there is no steel in the concrete then. If you do have rebar, there's a rebar cutter that's made to go through the steel. Without the correct bit and with any serious sized rebar (>1/2") there's a chance that a regular drill will deflect and make an ovalled bole. Floors with steel mat generally don't need the cutter.

Here in earthquake territory, Home Depot stores sell epoxy anchor kits intended for footing bolts that hold the house in place. As mentioed above, two-part epoxy in a chambered tube, mixes in the nozzle. House anchors are usually 5/8" but may also be larger in some cases. Might be a reliable and convenient source for the correct epoxy, if they have it in Alabama where you are. New Madrid faults isn't that far away if you are in the northwestern corner.

IIRC, the holes in the Max-Jax base will pass a 3/4" bolt if the hole is well centered under the baseplate holes. So you might be able to jack the old anchor out (use a stub/****** of 3/4" steel pipe ...) and your original installation bolt. Put grease on the bolt threads and things will go a lot easier. Drill new holes and install 3/4" wedjit anchors.

If you find a lot of concrete dust in the sleeve on the original anchors, that may have been jamming the sleeve enough to keep it from holding as the anchor body was pulled up originally. Clean the anchor, and blow out the hole with air as suggested above. Loose bits come out if you blow air across the top of the hole. Better if you have a bit of tubing to go down the hole first and loosen anything that might be sticking in there. Then blow across the top with your compressed air gun.

If you read all the install threads on RL. you read where I bought extra anchors and set them to allow a few different column spacing options. After the initial anchors are set, jou can move the columns in our out by one hole space (about 5-6" IIRC) and set three more anchors there. My 928 is the principal user of the lift, with lift pads at the outside under the rocker sills. Baby brother's Altima has lift pads closer to the centerline of the car, and needs the narrower column spacing for the arms to reach. K's 4Runner uses the mid width to get to frame rails. The baseplate hides the inner set of anchors on one side, but I added a total of nine more anchors so I have three options on one side and two on the other. On the three-options side with four rows of anchors, the inner anchors are exposed with the column at widest spacing. So if you are setting more anchors and need to rent the drill again, consider your 'customer base' when you choose hole spacing.

 

[A**holes Garage]

Hilti makes a variety of epoxies and anchors

 

[danieldd]

Daniel--

In your post here you say that you used fibre-reincforced concrete. Guessing that there is no steel in the concrete then. If you do have rebar, there's a rebar cutter that's made to go through the steel. Without the correct bit and with any serious sized rebar (>1/2") there's a chance that a regular drill will deflect and make an ovalled bole. Floors with steel mat generally don't need the cutter.

Here in earthquake territory, Home Depot stores sell epoxy anchor kits intended for footing bolts that hold the house in place. As mentioed above, two-part epoxy in a chambered tube, mixes in the nozzle. House anchors are usually 5/8" but may also be larger in some cases. Might be a reliable and convenient source for the correct epoxy, if they have it in Alabama where you are. New Madrid faults isn't that far away if you are in the northwestern corner.

IIRC, the holes in the Max-Jax base will pass a 3/4" bolt if the hole is well centered under the baseplate holes. So you might be able to jack the old anchor out (use a stub/****** of 3/4" steel pipe ...) and your original installation bolt. Put grease on the bolt threads and things will go a lot easier. Drill new holes and install 3/4" wedjit anchors.

If you find a lot of concrete dust in the sleeve on the original anchors, that may have been jamming the sleeve enough to keep it from holding as the anchor body was pulled up originally. Clean the anchor, and blow out the hole with air as suggested above. Loose bits come out if you blow air across the top of the hole. Better if you have a bit of tubing to go down the hole first and loosen anything that might be sticking in there. Then blow across the top with your compressed air gun.

If you read all the install threads on RL. you read where I bought extra anchors and set them to allow a few different column spacing options. After the initial anchors are set, jou can move the columns in our out by one hole space (about 5-6" IIRC) and set three more anchors there. My 928 is the principal user of the lift, with lift pads at the outside under the rocker sills. Baby brother's Altima has lift pads closer to the centerline of the car, and needs the narrower column spacing for the arms to reach. K's 4Runner uses the mid width to get to frame rails. The baseplate hides the inner set of anchors on one side, but I added a total of nine more anchors so I have three options on one side and two on the other. On the three-options side with four rows of anchors, the inner anchors are exposed with the column at widest spacing. So if you are setting more anchors and need to rent the drill again, consider your 'customer base' when you choose hole spacing.

Hey Bob - Good to see you over here..

They only put rebar in the footers, so I don't have an issue with trying to drill thru any rebar.

Thanks for the additional information. I called Wej-it this week and talked to them. Needless to say, I wasn't too impressed with their customer support and I was talking to the owner! He kept referring me to their spec sheet for details and said they can't help me sinc MaxJax instructions differ than Wej-it.

Anyway, the consensus is to pull up the offending anchors and either enlarge the hole and use a larger anchor - or use the epoxy Wej-it suggests, I think it is called Inject-Tite. So, I'm going to pull up the 2 anchors this weekend. I'll make sure I've got clean holes as well.

FYI, my neighbor suggested wedging a small piece of wood between the anchor and the concrete to keep it from turning and then try to get it to bite. I've got plenty of toothpicks....

 

[skamp]

Hey Bob - Good to see you over here..

They only put rebar in the footers, so I don't have an issue with trying to drill thru any rebar.

Thanks for the additional information. I called Wej-it this week and talked to them. Needless to say, I wasn't too impressed with their customer support and I was talking to the owner! He kept referring me to their spec sheet for details and said they can't help me sinc MaxJax instructions differ than Wej-it.

Anyway, the consensus is to pull up the offending anchors and either enlarge the hole and use a larger anchor - or use the epoxy Wej-it suggests, I think it is called Inject-Tite. So, I'm going to pull up the 2 anchors this weekend. I'll make sure I've got clean holes as well.

FYI, my neighbor suggested wedging a small piece of wood between the anchor and the concrete to keep it from turning and then try to get it to bite. I've got plenty of toothpicks....

If it is turning you should not use the anchor. The hole is too large. Pull them out and use the epoxy anchors. You will be much better off with them.

Steve

 

[WVBrady]

If it is turning you should not use the anchor. The hole is too large. Pull them out and use the epoxy anchors. You will be much better off with them.

Steve

If you decide to use the epoxy anchors, here was my experience:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=120172

 

[NewShockerGuy]

Are they wedge anchors? I assume they are. Put vise grips on top of the anchor, you might have to mash some threads to get it to hold. Or if you have alot of thread sticking out tighten two nuts together on top of the anchor. So you have three nuts on the anchor. 1 to draw the anchor tight and the other two to keep it from spinning.

You drill the same size hole as the wedge anchor. Is that what you did?

this is going to sound like a silly quetion but how does it actually bite into the concrete?

If we drive the anchor INTO the concrete, then simply use the nut to raise the anchor how is it expanding? I guess I'm just not understanding how the anchors in concrete work... I understand for drywall.. put the anchor in and when you screw the screw in it expands it out a little bit..

I've read the directions many times and it's happening this saturday that I'm going to drill and anchor everything. I just don't see how when I keep the bolt from moving but use the nut to turn how that's rasing the anchor and locking it in?

Another question. Should I be screwing the entire sacraficial bolt into the anchor / providing the 5/8" space that is needed, or do I only want to have a couple threads of the bolt in the anchor when I am pounding it in? Also how do the threads in the anchor NOT get damaged when you are pounding the bolt in..etc?

Thanks,
-Nigel

 

[NewShockerGuy]

I'm setting the anchors and it appears NON of them are biting at all... I pound them in 5/8" below the surface. Take te bolt out. put the washer so then it's washer first, nut on top adn then bolt through both.. .put it back in the anchor. Take my breakerbar with socket and hold it still. Turn the nut and tighten it 3-4 turns... is it supposed to get tighter??? Because it's not at all. And the anchor comes right at the surface?
The one I did 5 turn and it still wasn't tight. I can then tap it back down in the hole....???

Two of them are like this... does this mean it's a no go??? God

I put epoxy in the hole first and on the anchor could this have ANYTHING to do with it? I read that it's fine and also called wejit and they said epoxy on the anchor is fine but the ancor has to BITE...

-Nigel

 

[regguy1]

Not sure why this happening....consider making a small spacer from a piece of pipe same size as OD of anchor and high enough to take up the space between anchor top edge and washer (5/8") this should hold the anchor down in the hole as you tighten and allow the outer sleeve to expand and bite as required for proper grip. I had no problem like this with my install...?

 

[97dynaglide]

Not sure why this happening....consider making a small spacer from a piece of pipe same size as OD of anchor and high enough to take up the space between anchor top edge and washer (5/8") this should hold the anchor down in the hole as you tighten and allow the outer sleeve to expand and bite as required for proper grip. I had no problem like this with my install...?

Not sure how this would work.
The wedge and threaded section are one solid piece. The anchors work by being driven down, then 'pulled' back up (with the bolt, nut, washer) enough so the wedge portion spreads the sleeve to bite into the surrounding concrete. That is why it needs to be driven down the 5/8", to allow upward movement to seat.

 

[regguy1]

Not sure how this would work.
The wedge and threaded section are one solid piece. The anchors work by being driven down, then 'pulled' back up (with the bolt, nut, washer) enough so the wedge portion spreads the sleeve to bite into the surrounding concrete. That is why it needs to be driven down the 5/8", to allow upward movement to seat.

I took a second look at the anchors and you're right it won't work...bad suggestion

 

[sidwin]

I took a second look at the anchors and you're right it won't work...bad suggestion

has anyone noticed that epoxy anchors require 6.5 inches to depth?

and they are also out of stock and discontinued from wej-it.

I had 3 spin on me and i removed them and then put new ones back down and this time i coated the outside of them with epoxy and then some in the hole. hopefully they will hold. i'm worried they won't. one post all 5 went down fine and one post only 2.

thanks,
Sid

 

[hockey930]

Yes I am now working on this, I am considering using hilti internally threaded inserts the "HIS" line and cutting them down to 4 inches. They have rough surface almost all of the way up the anchor.

 

[hockey930]

double post
Does anyone have access to any single Hilti HIS series anchors? I am looking to buy 1.