Mechanics get screwed

[Bob-B]

"By owning the tools, there is a much greater incentive for the mechanic to take care and keep track of them. And the mechanic can often decide how much they want to spend on their particular tool set, from HF basics to every specialized tool in the SO catalog."

^X2

I did my wrenching as a machine mechanic/machinist in a metal stampings plant. I worked with guys who owned everything from Starrett and S/O right down to "not so Top Quality Import". Our department had company tools that you could borrow if you didn't have your own, but the dial indicators were as good a broken clock, right twice a day, because they were carelessly run into parts, if you could even read the dial thru the scratches. The mics might as well been stored with the c-clamps. You get the picture.

You think twice about trashing a Bestest indicator that you paid for! We were able to buy just about anything thru the company, and they deducted some of it from your check each week until it was paid off, interest free. As the older guys retired, they would sell their tools (and boxes) off to us newbies. It was great because you knew how well the guy kept his stuff.

The guys with the cheap tools left their stuff laying all around like they just went on break. Those of us with our own top quality tools made sure our boxes were locked before we punched out.

 

[cgv69]

Thank you.

Really? Seriously?

 

[AV tinker er]

I feel that if a mechanic is reputable and builds his or her reputation then customers will follow. Especially mechanics that are specialized. Unfortunately there are to many fly by night mechanics that are more interested in quick money versus quality service. The money, I feel, lies in the quality of service a mechanic offers the customer.

 

[Steinmetz]

As a "mechanic," I had a monthly tool allowance for "wear and tear" and a tool room containing the really expensive items. I also went home at the end of the day, forgot about my job, and played in the garage.

As an engineer, I have to pay licensing, higher education, professional society, and a whole raft of other fees and bills, in addition to convincing the company that they really need to pay ~$10k per program that is on the work computer on a yearly basis. Now, when Im not traveling for work, I have to attend professional society meetings, classes, read/learn about technology/software/techniques/research relevant to work, and a whole host of other time consuming activities. Example - The last SAE conference I attended involved three days vacation and $2k of my own money. Tell me again that auto techs are getting screwed.

People can ***** about things being greener or darker across the proverbial fence, but in reality, we each choose our profession and its burdens so to gripe about it is just plain silly. To be successful at anything in life you need to bust your *** and make smart decisions. Ive made ones I can live with, hopefully others can too.

Yes. Although I now practice law, I still keep current on my Professional Engineer registration, pay the fee, pay for insurance, etc. A toolbox so you can gain employment doesn't seem like a big deal. I was apprenticed to the machinist trade after high school, and had my own tools by then. Later, I went to college and grad school, then law school. None of this was easy or came cheap, but I managed.

 

[Terra Nova]

As an engineer, I have to pay licensing, higher education, professional society, and a whole raft of other fees and bills

This. Maybe it's my vantage point as a cubicle dwelling engineer but I spent a lot of $$ and years of my life on higher education to get there. I view mechanics buying tools as the same thing. It's an investment in you and your future. If you want to better your station in life it takes $$


If you add up 4-5 yrs of college and the money you aren't able to earn while attending school full time and gave it to the Snap-on man you would have a hell of a tool collection

 

[glockman]

First comparing a mechanic to a farmer has one major flaw. The government doesn't give millions to mechanics to ensure they make money. Second, there is no one profession with so little regard for their "tools" as farmers. The "as long as I turn the key and it fires up" mentality is rampant in farming. Preventative maintenance doesn't exist.

As for setting up a dental practice, that isn't even an argument. My dentist spent close to a million dollars on his building and tools. But, he paid it of in 5 years. Not many mechanics make a million dollars in 25 years.

I work in manufacturing. My employer provides tools. They are all cheap and most of them are broken. I love good tools so i buy my own. The systems I work on are 2.5 million dollars each. I maintain 43 of them. I asked for a $200 scope and my manager through a fit. I ended up buying it. Every industry has its challenges.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Professur]

Tools, what tools? I was a IT service tech in the 90's and never needed anything more then a bit driver with a couple of bits (yes, you needed some torx bit for Compaqs but so what?). A small precision screwdriver set came in handy for laptops and a knife to open boxes with and cut the occasional zip tie with. That and the occasional paper clip was all I ever needed. These days you don't even need that as most systems now are designed to be tool-less.

I'm guessing the majority of that $3000 was in parts and on that note I have to say you are the only tech I have ever talked to that had to buy his own parts. Sounds to me like you were an independent sub-contractor which is just one small step away from a small business owner and not comparative to this discussion.

I'll let you decide. Buttset, punchdown tools for 110, 66 and Bix, Paircheck, line tracer, full set of industrial grade insulated screw and nut drivers, various size pliers and cutters, crimpers, soldering post, etc. That's about a grand right there. Torque controlled screwdriver (required for warranty work on IBM and Compaq laptops) is another $100. There was a cable tester I'd gotten used for checking all manner of cables. The rj-45 circuit was defective, so I got it cheap, the IDE, parallel and serial ports were the ones I was really interested in. I think I coughed up about $300 for that. Add another couple of hundred in various cables and I'm near $2k before I even bring up spare video cards, ata controllers and hard drives.

Then there was a good deal of customer supplied spare parts that I carried about, but I didn't count that. They were perfectly willing to buy an extra machine to ensure that they didn't have to wait for a motherboard to be shipped from Toronto when a machine at a branch went down.

As you say, not exactly typical .. but I did mention I carried the top 1% of all our customers pretty much solo.

 

[camarotoolman]

I find deals on tools all the time, but I'm out looking ,not sleeping till noon on sat. sun.

 

[got2boostit2]

me·chan·ic

/məˈkanik/





Noun




A person who repairs and maintains machinery: "a car mechanic".

I.E. Parts replacer.

With the complexity of the population of vehicles available now this is the more appropriate description in my humble opinion.

tech·ni·cian

/tekˈniSHən/





Noun




1.A person employed to look after technical equipment or do practical work in a laboratory.
2.An expert in the practical application of a science.

 

[Boss351]

I work in general management and one of the first things that I changed in our facilities was to require that mechanics provide their own tools up to 1" or 25mm specialty tools aside. We had literally tens of thousands of dollars tools disappearing very couple of months and no matter what control system was tried they would disappear. Our new program included a no interest loan with payroll deduction for the monthly payments and the tools are acquired through Snap-On Industrial with the company subsidizing a discount to the employee on the initial set. After that they have a $100/month allowance to purchase or replace for their set. Obviously, if they leave or retire and the loan is paid they are property of the employee. It is much less than the company buying all the tools. The "disappearance rate" or shrinkage is almost zero now.

But to answer the original question, theft by a certain percentage of the population is the reason for requiring that mechanics/technicians provide their own tools.

 

[Boss351]

I work in manufacturing. My employer provides tools. They are all cheap and most of them are broken. I love good tools so i buy my own. The systems I work on are 2.5 million dollars each. I maintain 43 of them. I asked for a $200 scope and my manager through a fit. I ended up buying it. Every industry has its challenges.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cheap tools are why I changed our policy and our mechanics are buying company subsidized Snap-On. Though I am in general management, I pay close attention to maintenance because we are operating custom engineered 40 MM USD production lines and my goal was to eliminate downtime due to sloppy work (loose, leaks, electrical problems). All now have proper tools, torque cards and if anyone is found with a Crescent wrench, they will be fired. If we get a request for a $200 scope, my policy is to buy it.

 

[larry_g]

Originally Posted by Aberdale
Mechanics aren't alone. There are many professions that require a sizable investment to start . . . and to keep current.

How about farming? I figure I have somewhere in the neighborhood of $600,000 in equipment that I've had to buy over the past 10 years to be competitive. And that doesn't include the land, seed, fertilizer, and fuel.

How about a trucker Owner/Operator? It's not hard to rack up $300-500,000 or more in a rig and equipment. I bet most rack up as much in fuel in a month than most mechanics spend on tools in their career.

One of the things that I believe getting lost here is that you, and others, are comparing tradesmen, professionals, and business owners. As a professional or business owner you have a lot more control over what happens and you have the choice of what you need to bring into a job. A tradesman working for wages has way less control and the investment in tools can be way out of proportion to the money earned.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[HoosierBuddy]

In reading through the responses, the only thing I would add is an historical perspective.

The key is "mobility". The term "Journeyman" which we equate with a highly skilled person who is an expert at their craft derives from a french word meaning "for one day". A journeyman was beholden to no master (as an apprentice would be) and could ply his skills as he saw fit. Obviously to do this, he had to own his own tools.

That remains true today. If you go into a factory somewhere with union skilled trades and non-skilled trades....non-skilled trade people are typically paid less and supplied with all of the tools they need to do their work by the company. Skilled trades (machine repairmen, electricians, pipe fitters, die makers, pattern makers, etc.) are paid a higher wage but are expected to buy their own tools.

In the historical view, (as is true today) a worker who owns tools has freedom that other non-skilled people don't have. If he decides to, he's free to take his tools out of the shop and seek employment elsewhere. Prior to le journée, in France, workers were essentially owned by the lord of the estate. This was a big social change, and personally, I think it was and is a GREAT thing.

Phil

 

[e-tek]

From my past experience - plus what I've been absorbing from the techs here - y'all need a bigger slice of the pie, especially at dealerships. If they charge $100+/hr and you're getting $20, something is wrong. Most professional types (doctors, laywers, etc) pay 30% to an offices overhead, so you as mechanics, should be getting paid $70/hr of a $100 labor rate!!

Time to organize men!

 

[hifi_hokie]

Professional OH and fabrication/maintenance OH are slightly different in requirements

 

[braol]

From my past experience - plus what I've been absorbing from the techs here - y'all need a bigger slice of the pie, especially at dealerships. If they charge $100+/hr and you're getting $20, something is wrong. Most professional types (doctors, laywers, etc) pay 30% to an offices overhead, so you as mechanics, should be getting paid $70/hr of a $100 labor rate!!

Time to organize men!

If the labor rate for the shop is $100/hr and you are getting paid 15-20/hr you are definitely getting screwed. But getting $70/hr is not going to happen. The mechanic isnt the only person getting paid off that $100/hr labor rate. Besides, doctors and lawyers have there own employees to pay dont they? So not exactly apples to apples there.

 

[mikefromme]

Unless the op was talking about the former soviet union I don't get where he is coming from. Mechaincs get paid what the market says they are worth. Nothing more nothing less. Sure you might get another slightly better deal from the shop down the street but mechanics are going to make what they make. Just like rocket scientists make what they make.

Get over it.

 

[Aberdale]

One of the things that I believe getting lost here is that you, and others, are comparing tradesmen, professionals, and business owners . . . . . . . A tradesman working for wages has way less control and the investment in tools can be way out of proportion to the money earned.

lg
no neat sig line

Well, Larry, what I'm hearing you say is that a "tradesman" is just manual labor and doesn't need to put any skin in the game. All they need to do is show up and sweat a little. In your eyes, the owner should assume all the risk. After all, the owner is the one making all the money, right?


I don't see it that way. First, a vocation is a vocation. We all choose, don't we? We choose to be a mechanic, or an engineer, or even the owner. There are many years that a mechanic will likely net more annually than I will farming. And I have spent 10 times more on equipment than a mechanic. (You could argue that from a business perspective I must not be a smart man, and you may be right, but it's a choice I've made). When I owned my own design and engineering business there were lean weeks where I paid my staff in full and covered the overhead while I couldn't afford to pay myself. Yes, as an owner, I assumed that risk.

If someone chooses to be a mechanic, then they know the deal going in. In most cases they will be expected to own their own tools. If they don't want to make the investment, then they should consider another line of work where everything is provided for them. Like a nice cushy union manufacturing job, or a pizza delivery guy, or I hear McDonalds is always hiring.

The only reason that a mechanic is required to own his own tools is because if the company pays for them, they somehow disappear, and are expensive to replace. Requiring the mechanic to own his own tools eliminates tools disappearing and the expense to the company. It's as simple as that.

I'm sure if cubicle employees were losing laptop computers as easily as mechanics lose tools they don't own, then employers would require their professionals to supply their own computers. And some do.

 

[demographic]

Supply and demand= wages.

If there's not enough demand for the supply then the wages are **** and if there's more demand than supply the wages go up.

Its that simple.

So many young lads just want to work on cars and get into being a mechanic so the supply almost always exceeds the demand.

If there were less people trying to get into the job the wages would go up.

 

[cgv69]

If you add up 4-5 yrs of college and the money you aren't able to earn while attending school full time and gave it to the Snap-on man you would have a hell of a tool collection

I figured someone was going to bring this up at some point. While I can agree that a mechanics investment in tools can be viewed as an investment in their continued employment, I can not agree with the notion that investment is in any way equivalent to the investment of a 4 year degree. While not as meaningful as it once was, a 4 year degree will still open up a lot more employment opportunities then a whole Snap-On truck worth of tools ever will.

That said, let me stop right there as I don't want to turn this into a degree vs trade debate. Both have their merits.

I'll let you decide.

Well based off of my experience I'd still say that tool wise, you had way more tools then was required. A torque driver for IBM and Compaq PC's? Seriously, I did plenty of warranty repair work on both. Matter of fact my first full time job in IT was with IBM who outsourced me to P&G as a desktop hardware tech and I've never even heard of such a thing. Nut driver set? For what? The only nuts I've ever seen on a computer were 1/4 hex head screws and guess what, that bit driver I mentioned earlier works perfect for those.

Some of the network cabling stuff you mentioned would be useful if you did that kind of work. At the time I didn't but those tools were available to me if needed. I also never had to supply any parts, not even a screw or IDE cable. Matter of fact, most places I worked at had so many of those parts lying around everywhere that I sometimes forget that other people actually have to pay money for them!

We both have our own experiences but we also both agree that your situation was way outside the norm in this business so there's no point in debating the details.

 

[Murphy4570]

Cheap tools are why I changed our policy and our mechanics are buying company subsidized Snap-On. Though I am in general management, I pay close attention to maintenance because we are operating custom engineered 40 MM USD production lines and my goal was to eliminate downtime due to sloppy work (loose, leaks, electrical problems). All now have proper tools, torque cards and if anyone is found with a Crescent wrench, they will be fired. If we get a request for a $200 scope, my policy is to buy it.

Oh **** I better hide my 3 Crescent wrenches.

Those kind of wrenches have their place. Typically on industrial stuff that will vary in size constantly, and requires very low torque to be applied.

Did you implement that policy to weed out the guys whose toolbox consisted solely of a Crescent wrench, a hammer, and a screwdriver?

 

[e-tek]

If the labor rate for the shop is $100/hr and you are getting paid 15-20/hr you are definitely getting screwed. But getting $70/hr is not going to happen. The mechanic isnt the only person getting paid off that $100/hr labor rate. Besides, doctors and lawyers have there own employees to pay dont they? So not exactly apples to apples there.

Of course not apples to apples, I was just broadening the discussion. But doctors/lawyers/etc who join a practice pay ONLY the 30% and that pays for all the employees, overhead, testing equipment, etc, so it's not THAT far off.

On the plus side, mechanics and service writers generally get paid more than do medical techs and secretaries (at least here).

 

[nanofrog]

As an engineer, I have to pay licensing, higher education, professional society, and a whole raft of other fees and bills, in addition to convincing the company that they really need to pay ~$10k per program that is on the work computer on a yearly basis. Now, when Im not traveling for work, I have to attend professional society meetings, classes, read/learn about technology/software/techniques/research relevant to work, and a whole host of other time consuming activities. Example - The last SAE conference I attended involved three days vacation and $2k of my own money. Tell me again that auto techs are getting screwed.

People can ***** about things being greener or darker across the proverbial fence, but in reality, we each choose our profession and its burdens so to gripe about it is just plain silly. To be successful at anything in life you need to bust your *** and make smart decisions. Ive made ones I can live with, hopefully others can too.

I see the difference in income levels vs. what's invested in tooling, education,...

For example, say a consulting engineer may be able to bill 20 hrs/wk @ $175 per hr, while a mechanic earns say $20 per hr @ 50 billable hours. Now lets suppose their annual investment in education and tooling is similar. That's an income factor of 3.5x higher for the engineer than the mechanic, for the same investment (tooling and education, not including licensing fees, publications,...).

Granted, there are other expenses for that engineer, but even accounting for those, wouldn't generate parity IMHO (% of annual income invested in their profession would be lower than the mechanic).

None of this was easy or came cheap, but I managed.

But professionals, such as those in engineering, haven't been pushed down in income levels vs. the trades to the same extent from what I've seen. Especially if they're working for someone else. Combine that with the increase in costs, especially education, it makes it a lot harder to get started these days IMHO.

Our new program included a no interest loan with payroll deduction for the monthly payments and the tools are acquired through Snap-On Industrial with the company subsidizing a discount to the employee on the initial set. After that they have a $100/month allowance to purchase or replace for their set. Obviously, if they leave or retire and the loan is paid they are property of the employee. It is much less than the company buying all the tools. The "disappearance rate" or shrinkage is almost zero now.

Given the current business climate, this seems reasonable to me (some compromise between the employer and employee).

But how common is this sort of program?

I ask, given the cuts being taken out of employees in forms such as stagnant/lowered wages, reduced/eliminated benefits, .... over the years.

One of the things that I believe getting lost here is that you, and others, are comparing tradesmen, professionals, and business owners. As a professional or business owner you have a lot more control over what happens and you have the choice of what you need to bring into a job. A tradesman working for wages has way less control and the investment in tools can be way out of proportion to the money earned.

I have to agree with this.

 

[cgv69]

Well, Larry, what I'm hearing you say is that a "tradesman" is just manual labor and doesn't need to put any skin in the game. All they need to do is show up and sweat a little. In your eyes, the owner should assume all the risk. After all, the owner is the one making all the money, right?

I'm not Larry but I don't mind fielding this one. I don't know about the tradesman = manually labor stuff but yes, I do think the owner does assumes all of the risk, after all he is the one getting all of the profit. When he hires someone, that person is paid to do a job. In most business, the employer supplies the tools the employee needs to do that work. If you hire a farm hand to help plow the fields, do you expect that person to have his own tractor? If so, do you think you would pay the same for an employee who is using your tractor as opposed to what it would cost you to pay someone to come in with their own equipment?

If you want the employee to assume some of the risk than let him share in some of the profit (and before you go there, the employee's salary is not part of the profit. Profit is the money left over after paying all of the expenses including employee salaries). That is exactly why some companies have profit sharing programs, which are above and beyond the employee base salary. They are designed to give the employee a sense of ownership and added motivation to see the company do well.

If someone chooses to be a mechanic, then they know the deal going in.

I don't disagree with that and I'm in no way saying that mechanics are being duped. Just that it's mostly only in the "trades" type professions (and the mechanic being the worst of them in this regard IMO) that employee's are expected to bring their own tools. In most of the rest of the employment world, companies supply the tools that are needed or at least, reimburse the employee for anything they have to buy on their own.

The only reason that a mechanic is required to own his own tools is because if the company pays for them, they somehow disappear, and are expensive to replace. Requiring the mechanic to own his own tools eliminates tools disappearing and the expense to the company. It's as simple as that.

That very well may be a big part of it but it still ***** that the honest are basically getting fucked because of the dishonest.

I'm sure if cubicle employees were losing laptop computers as easily as mechanics lose tools they don't own, then employers would require their professionals to supply their own computers. And some do.

You have no idea how wrong you are there. Laptops "disappear" all the time.

 

[Aberdale]

cvg, you make good points and the discussion so far has been pretty civil, and makes for good reading. I would totally agree that the "honest" are basically getting f**d by the "dishonest". Unfortunately, that happens at all levels and in every aspect of life. That's just the way it is.

I don't think we're far away from companies asking employees to provide their own computers and cell phones. For a few companies that's already in place, especially cell phones.

Getting back to topic, I just don't believe that "techs are getting screwed" by requiring that they provide their own tools. It's just part of the cost of entry in the field. If we are talking about "techs are getting screwed" because they aren't paid enough, then that's a different discussion.

Perhaps that's where profit sharing programs come in. But as has been said in an earlier post, there is likely oversupply of techs for the positions to be filled. Otherwise, pay would be higher. (Supply and demand). As long as that situation exists, it will be difficult to justify increases in compensation.

 

[larry_g]

Well, Larry, what I'm hearing you say is that a "tradesman" is just manual labor and doesn't need to put any skin in the game. All they need to do is show up and sweat a little. In your eyes, the owner should assume all the risk. After all, the owner is the one making all the money, right?

What I said was "the investment in tools can be way out of proportion to the money earned"


I don't see it that way. First, a vocation is a vocation. We all choose, don't we? We choose to be a mechanic, or an engineer, or even the owner. There are many years that a mechanic will likely net more annually than I will farming. And I have spent 10 times more on equipment than a mechanic. (You could argue that from a business perspective I must not be a smart man, and you may be right, but it's a choice I've made). When I owned my own design and engineering business there were lean weeks where I paid my staff in full and covered the overhead while I couldn't afford to pay myself. Yes, as an owner, I assumed that risk.

If someone chooses to be a mechanic, then they know the deal going in. In most cases they will be expected to own their own tools. If they don't want to make the investment, then they should consider another line of work where everything is provided for them. Like a nice cushy union manufacturing job, or a pizza delivery guy, or I hear McDonalds is always hiring.

The only reason that a mechanic is required to own his own tools is because if the company pays for them, they somehow disappear, and are expensive to replace. Requiring the mechanic to own his own tools eliminates tools disappearing and the expense to the company. It's as simple as that.

I'm sure if cubicle employees were losing laptop computers as easily as mechanics lose tools they don't own, then employers would require their professionals to supply their own computers. And some do.

As a farmer do you expect the hired hands to show up in a pickup to haul your fuel, grease and support equipment out to the fields? Or do you provide the equipment needed?

As a farmer or business owner you have control of what happens. The tradesman working in a dealership does not have that control. As a grown educated man you made the decision to farm, or like me inherited, (I assume that by all that you have done) but the 19yo that heads off to tech school does not have the experience to understand what the trade involves.

As far as providing tool and having them stolen by the tradesman doesn't hold water. I worked maintenance in a factory where each tech was issued a tool box. If you lost the tools they might be replaced, but tracked. Loose to many and you could not do your job and your gone. I treated those tools as my own as they were my link to a paycheck. Did you require the engineers in your company to show up with a workstation and a cad program? ( side note on computers, one of the engineering firms I was in many years ago removed all the disc drives from the engineers computers to keep them from stealing files.)

The tools on the farm are relegated to only a couple of people and they understand that to much loss has consequences.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Armed Bear]

Landscapers get screwed equally,if not more.

Gas prices are way too high these days and most landscapers drive big trucks that use a lot of gas.

Professional lawnmowers cost around $1000, and good weed eaters cost over $300.The powerful blowers that landscapers must have cost around $420.They also need a good hedge trimmer that cost between $350-$500.

Plus after heavy use of the equipment,it needs to be repaired or replaced.

On top of that, most customers don't understand why it cost as much as it does for a professional landscaper.

I'm at the point where when it comes to hand tools, I could get by with cheap chinese or Taiwan tools to repair my equipment. I would much rather have USA made tools, but these gas prices are just way too high.....Sometimes if I get a big job and make extra profits then I do buy USA tools.

 

[txdiesel15]

I have been an auto technician for almost 6 years now. I was also a financial advisor for a global investment firm(part time...remember that). The way I look at purchasing my tools is the same as " it takes money, to make money" . When I was in finance, I had to pay constant exam fees, continuing education, advertisements such as mailer, flyer, etc, E&O Insurance, Desk fees, rent fees, second telephone line. And lets not forget about all the meetings over lunch or at the golf course! Granted, My checks were A LOT larger than the ones I currently collect, however my expenses are FAR LESS as a mechanic than as an advisor. Every industry and occupation is going to have its quirks. PLUS, where I currently work, we get a monthly bonus and a tool allowance. So no more complaints from me!

 

[Danglerb]

Requiring a mechanic have their own tools is good for them and who they work for. Job security, it means some Joe off the street can't walk in and do your job, even if they know how to do it. Having a box and good tools is a strong sign the person works in the trade.

Electricians who work for somebody else may not have a lot in tools, but self employed they have plenty, and a typical plumber may have $100k easy in a truck, but as an employee again maybe be able to carry all "his" tools in a bag.

These days, any job isn't to be sneered at.

 

[kiatech]

I agree! that is why I start my electrician apprenticeship in january

 

[Aberdale]

As a farmer do you expect the hired hands to show up in a pickup to haul your fuel, grease and support equipment out to the fields? Or do you provide the equipment needed?

Larry, I provide all of the tools, equipment, and materials, just as most employers would. However, if tools or materials began disappearing, I would certainly change my policies. Although one option might be to ask the employee to bring their own tools or materials, I would likely fire the employee, wouldn't you?

As a farmer or business owner you have control of what happens. The tradesman working in a dealership does not have that control. As a grown educated man you made the decision to farm, or like me inherited, (I assume that by all that you have done) but the 19yo that heads off to tech school does not have the experience to understand what the trade involves.

As a business owner, I have control over many things. There are still many things that I don't have control over. I suspect it's the same with the tradesman. He has control over some things, and has no control over others. I believe most tech schools give the student a pretty good idea of what they are getting into though, especially about owning their own tools.

As far as providing tool and having them stolen by the tradesman doesn't hold water. I worked maintenance in a factory where each tech was issued a tool box. If you lost the tools they might be replaced, but tracked. Loose to many and you could not do your job and your gone. I treated those tools as my own as they were my link to a paycheck. Did you require the engineers in your company to show up with a workstation and a cad program? ( side note on computers, one of the engineering firms I was in many years ago removed all the disc drives from the engineers computers to keep them from stealing files.)

You should be grateful that your employer provides your tools. Sounds like their incentive to keep from losing tools is to fire the employee instead of requiring them to bring their own tools.

I would prefer to let techs answer this one. I'm not a tech. But we all know tools are expensive, especially if they need to be replaced frequently because they have a habit of disappearing. There's no greater incentive to keep track of tools than to have a person own them and replace them at their cost when they disappear.

In the design and engineering business I provided all of the computer equipment and software. But once again, I never had an issue with them getting lost or walking away. I did have two techs that worked in the model/prototyping lab. Both provided their own tools. Quite frankly, I was more concerned about the disappearance of intellectual property than hardware. To insure against that, I required each employee to sign an employment agreement which covered theft of information.


I can't imagine that anything that I've said has changed your mind. And nothing you have said has changed mine. We should just agree to disagree on this one and move on.

 

[itguy08]

Many companies are doing BYOD computers. Some give you an allowance and you can bring in whatever you want. I would love it if where I work we would do that. The POS Dell on my desk would be in the trash so fast it wouldn't know what hit it. In its place would be a million times better MacBook Pro.

 

[firebox40dash5]

I see the difference in income levels vs. what's invested in tooling, education,...

For example, say a consulting engineer may be able to bill 20 hrs/wk @ $175 per hr, while a mechanic earns say $20 per hr @ 50 billable hours. Now lets suppose their annual investment in education and tooling is similar. That's an income factor of 3.5x higher for the engineer than the mechanic, for the same investment (tooling and education, not including licensing fees, publications,...)

Where are you coming up with equal investment in education and tooling for a mechanic and an engineer who's doing consulting work?

For one, if you're a non-employee consultant, you're really a contractor, with all the fun that comes with owning your own company, like a huge tax penalty, and no job security to speak of. That alone carries a huge price tag. I gladly do side work at $20 an hour, because it's cash money... if I were doing it as my own business, Id be looking at charging triple that much, or more, to cover my additional expenses and provide for growth and working capital.

I sure hope no one's spending as much out of pocket to get educated in wrenching as it would take to get even a BS in any engineering field. I know a few engineers, but I don't know many, if any, who got their BS degree in 4 years. I think University of MD actually lists their engineering program as 4.5-5 years. 4+ years of school, while paying 5+ figures a year in tuition, to say nothing of room and board or opportunity cost from not working. I'd say if you're taking that long (and spend that much) to get schooled in basic wrenching, you're doing it horribly, terribly, completely, totally wrong.

I agree that wrenching, at least for a good mechanic, is a little undervalued, but not that extreme. At least as a mechanic, for the most part, you're sort of getting paid to learn on the job, pretty much every day. Yeah, if you're flat rate you might get soaked the first time you do _____, but next time hopefully you learned the ropes and some shortcuts, and can make more at it.

Lawyers and doctors get paid a lot more, too. They typically have a lot more invested in their minds, as well as having much greater personal responsibility for knowing their ****. And if they're working for a company they don't own, they're probably not rolling in dough near as much as many people think.

 

[Terra Nova]

I figured someone was going to bring this up at some point. While I can agree that a mechanics investment in tools can be viewed as an investment in their continued employment, I can not agree with the notion that investment is in any way equivalent to the investment of a 4 year degree. While not as meaningful as it once was, a 4 year degree will still open up a lot more employment opportunities then a whole Snap-On truck worth of tools ever will.

That said, let me stop right there as I don't want to turn this into a degree vs trade debate. Both have their merits.

I think it's a much more realistic comparison than you might think. At least with law school and engineering a big part of the education is not remembering a bunch of facts and figures, there's some of that, but it's training your mind to attack problems in a certain way. Essentially creating a skills set or mental tools that can be called upon out in the real world.

There is a lot of specialization in the big three degrees 'Doctor, lawyer, engineer' which starts before you leave school and once you are in the real world your focus narrows even further. If you spend 10 years or so doing the same thing as an engineer you're pretty much going to do that forever. It's tough to switch specialties and stay anywhere near the same pay scale. So the mere fact of having a degree doesn't necessarily open more doors over the course of a career.

A head full of "lawyer tools" won't be of any marketable value if the owner can't wield them. Just like a snap-on truck full of tools won't make my Grandma a top shelf Mercedes Tech pulling down 6 figures.

 

[Terra Nova]

And I feel for the techs starting out, don't get me wrong. I always get a kick out of hearing teachers complain about having to spend a couple hundred dollars on class room materials. I want to ask "really? ask your mechanic how much he spent last year to do his job!"

 

[RCRGarage]

Now if a mechanic was opening up his own shop then you'd have a point but that's not at all what we are talking about. Lets try to keep it on track here people and make fair, logically comparisons.

Thats too logical and intelligent for GJ members. Off with your head!

 

[RCRGarage]

I'm not Larry but I don't mind fielding this one. I don't know about the tradesman = manually labor stuff but yes, I do think the owner does assumes all of the risk, after all he is the one getting all of the profit. When he hires someone, that person is paid to do a job. In most business, the employer supplies the tools the employee needs to do that work. If you hire a farm hand to help plow the fields, do you expect that person to have his own tractor? If so, do you think you would pay the same for an employee who is using your tractor as opposed to what it would cost you to pay someone to come in with their own equipment?

If you want the employee to assume some of the risk than let him share in some of the profit (and before you go there, the employee's salary is not part of the profit. Profit is the money left over after paying all of the expenses including employee salaries). That is exactly why some companies have profit sharing programs, which are above and beyond the employee base salary. They are designed to give the employee a sense of ownership and added motivation to see the company do well.



I don't disagree with that and I'm in no way saying that mechanics are being duped. Just that it's mostly only in the "trades" type professions (and the mechanic being the worst of them in this regard IMO) that employee's are expected to bring their own tools. In most of the rest of the employment world, companies supply the tools that are needed or at least, reimburse the employee for anything they have to buy on their own.



That very well may be a big part of it but it still ***** that the honest are basically getting fucked because of the dishonest.


You have no idea how wrong you are there. Laptops "disappear" all the time.

Are you a communist?

 

[bcradio]

Basic hand and power tools are his responsibility, though he can usually purchase some of them through his employer at better prices.

How does this happen? Is his employer also a tool vendor, or does he get them used?

 

[jmm]

First comparing a mechanic to a farmer has one major flaw. The government doesn't give millions to mechanics to ensure they make money. Second, there is no one profession with so little regard for their "tools" as farmers. The "as long as I turn the key and it fires up" mentality is rampant in farming. Preventative maintenance doesn't exist.

I'm not a farmer, but making claims like that is ridiculous. I know enough of them to know better...farmers are some of the best economically-minded problem solvers you'll meet. The best of their lot can do more with less than the best mechanics.

PM=increased production, why wouldn't they maintain their equipment? Just because subsidies exist doesn't mean they can throw caution to the wind; upkeep of their equipment and facilities is every bit as important as upkeep of a mechanic's tools. Their livelihood isn't guaranteed by anyone.

 

[jmm]

How does this happen? Is his employer also a tool vendor, or does he get them used?

As was mentioned above, its not completely uncommon for an employer to finance tool purchases. Mine sources tools and finances them, taking payments out of every check. I work at a textile mill -- the company that made our looms also supplies the supplies the tools (very expensive ones) used to work on them. For everything else, they have a Grainger catalog and a few others in the HR department, which is where all our purchases are made and paid for.