Metabo USA now fully Metabo HPT

[Vinny]

I recall when Hitachi bought Metabo (or was it vice versa?) that Hitachi started calling their tools Metabo HPT, and that the "good" Metabo would remain Metabo. Well, I was checking out the Metabo website and it looks like in the USA, all tools are now going to be Metabo HPT. It says everything else will remain the same, so I guess there will be two types of Metabo HPT batteries? The rest of the world, they'll remain two distinct brands.
If you really like the dark green Metabo, then consider buying now.

 

[tarbellb]

"Only the name and branding are changing- everything else remains the same...."

Made in Germany staying the same, unlikely



While I do like some of the Hitachi products, I would really hate to see German made Metabo stuff disappear

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

What's our take on the future of the original German line (non-Hitachi heritage) tools? I know they're well regarded.

Quick history recap. Hitachi bought Metabo, then the whole Hitachi tool group was sold to private equity. Hitachi tools now sold as Metabo HPT in the US, and HiKoki elsewhere. Now Metabo (original line) is rebranded into the Metabo HPT line in the US, but staying Metabo elsewhere.

I would not assume that this is the end of it, so I'm wondering where Metabo original is going to end up. Will they continue making the ole' good stuff, will they continue developing existing and new tools (e.g. compatible with both battery systems) - or will they just let it die down?

Metabo has the CAS multi-brand battery system, rivaled by Bosch's AMPShare - which I'd guess is comparatively a giant. The 30+ brands on each system seem mostly quite niche, and relatively small compared to the lead brand. Whether Hitachi's owners gives a damn about that ecosystem is another question. I assume they will want to have battery compatibility in their Metabo HPT line in the US, which looks like now is going to contain tools from both Metabo and Hitachi heritage.

I only have my toe in 18v with Milwaukee (just two tools that aren't mainline, and two standard batteries). So it doesn't weigh heavily on what ecosystem to get into for further tools and high performance batteries. Metabo has some nice options for e.g. grinders, recip saws, circular saws. But I fear the days of Metabo CAS battery tools may be numbered.

 

[dnschmidt]

This rebranding was stupid with a capital S from the very start. Why not just use Hikoki everywhere for the previously known Hitachi, which made some nice tools. and Metabo for Metabo. This is what happens when private equity gets involved in areas they obviously know nothing about. It was STUPID when it first happened and it's even dumber now as both brands have different battery platforms. Weird how an MBA has nothing to do with respect to common sense.

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

Why not just use Hikoki everywhere for the previously known Hitachi

Even this was dumb. "HiKOKI" (as cased correctly) sounds like a made up tool brand name on Amazon that will be gone in a month or two.

I understand the sale of the Hitachi tool division didn't include name rights, and presumably they couldn't license it either.

Someone on Facebook here saying market research in the US showed negativity towards Asia. So I guess buying a reputable German company and slapping the name on their tools solved that. But of course, leave aside the tools and engineering that earned that name its reputation.

 

[dnschmidt]

Even this was dumb. "HiKOKI" (as cased correctly) sounds like a made up tool brand name on Amazon that will be gone in a month or two.

I understand the sale of the Hitachi tool division didn't include name rights, and presumably they couldn't license it either.

Someone on Facebook here saying market research in the US showed negativity towards Asia. So I guess buying a reputable German company and slapping the name on their tools solved that. But of course, leave aside the tools and engineering that earned that name its reputation.

I think that concern could have been easily addressed buy simply stating that Hitachi power tools will now be know under the name HiKOKI which doesn't seem to offend the rest of the known world. Dragging Metabo's name though the mud lessened the value of Metabo which is known worldwide as the best maker of grinders that exists. When I lived in Pittsburgh, like 40 years ago, we had an industrial tool store called H. K. Mcjunken in Swissvale, PA that use to get a good portion of my spending money and Rich McJunken, the boss man, told me Metabo made the best tools in the world and he sold every brand you could think of. Why tarnish that reputation?

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

This is what happens when private equity gets involved in areas they obviously know nothing about. It was STUPID when it first happened and it's even dumber now

I share your sentiment, but -

"If it's stupid and it works, it's not stupid" ?

They want to make more money by selling tools in the US, and this may well help.

Dragging Metabo's name though the mud lessened the value of Metabo which is known worldwide as the best maker of grinders that exists.

Why tarnish that reputation?

I guess they figured there was more money to be made in the US by using the name, than by selling the tools.

They will value the brand, but for different reasons than you or I. Because it's recognised and sounds good, which help sell tools. Not because it's associated with making excellent tools.

 

[Nobody-named-Olli]

For everything labor/ energy intensive they went to eastern Europe somewhere between the end of 2023 and mid 2024. Laid off 145 people. Also got a new CEO mid 2024. The once “famous” aluminum smelter/casting = gone. They still make motors, do injection molding … at the HQ in Nuertigen. Lot’s of automation to get cost down.

Future will show.

Kind regards,
Olli

 

[Brian Puccio]

My 18v platform is Metabo CAS. I wonder what Mafell, Lamello, etc. think this will do to US sales. Maybe they aren’t concerned because if you want a Mafell saw or Lamello Zeta P2, you don’t care that it doesn’t take the same batteries as every other tool you own.

But it is frustrating that Metabo has basically told me (and all other CAS users) “if you want to buy any of our tools in the future, you will need to buy into the HPT multivolt platform”. If I need to buy into another 18v battery platform, I’d consider Makita for its expansive range of tools — not Metabo HPT multivolt.

 

[finn]

My 18v platform is Metabo CAS. I wonder what Mafell, Lamello, etc. think this will do to US sales. Maybe they aren’t concerned because if you want a Mafell saw or Lamello Zeta P2, you don’t care that it doesn’t take the same batteries as every other tool you own.

But it is frustrating that Metabo has basically told me (and all other CAS users) “if you want to buy any of our tools in the future, you will need to buy into the HPT multivolt platform”. If I need to buy into another 18v battery platform, I’d consider Makita for its expansive range of tools — not Metabo HPT multivolt.

Apparently, their market research says you’re in the minority. It’s a business decision, and not a casual one. The customers they loose is offset by the savings incurred by standardizing on the multivolt battery system.

 

[Crazyjake8493]

I guess it was a long time coming. Back in 2018 I bought the Hitachi 18V framing, finish, and pin nailers on sale at Lowes as they prepared to stock the Metabo HPT versions (identical tool, different label). Got them all for a steal and still use them all the time.

 

[dchawk81]

The enshitification of everything continues.

 

[dnschmidt]

They could solve a lot of these issues if they would just make an adapter to enable the use of Multivolt on the Metabo CAS stuff. Multivolt is, in my opinion, a superior solution over CAS plus it enables the use of their plug in adapter which is unique to Metabo HPT. DeWalt did this adapter to enable their old 18 Volt tools to use the 20 volt batteries and I see no reason Metabo HPT couldn't do the same.

 

[Brian Puccio]

Apparently, their market research says you’re in the minority. It’s a business decision, and not a casual one. The customers they loose is offset by the savings incurred by standardizing on the multivolt battery system.

Oh, I understood that buying into the CAS platform was making me a minority — most people buy cordless Milwaukee in the US, followed by cordless DeWalt and then Bosch/Ryobi/Craftsman/Festool/Makita/etc (with market share varying by the specific industry).

If there’s a CAS tool I want, I’ll get it from Europe. (Unless the next rugpull is killing CAS in the rest of the world and leaving the few dozen mostly Euro brands out in the cold.) But I won’t buy into another minority Metabo battery platform ever.

 

[finn]

Oh, I understood that buying into the CAS platform was making me a minority — most people buy cordless Milwaukee in the US, followed by cordless DeWalt and then Bosch/Ryobi/Craftsman/Festool/Makita/etc (with market share varying by the specific industry).

If there’s a CAS tool I want, I’ll get it from Europe. (Unless the next rugpull is killing CAS in the rest of the world and leaving the few dozen mostly Euro brands out in the cold.) But I won’t buy into another minority Metabo battery platform ever.

Spite doesn’t resolve much.

Just remember, they’re not singling you out, personally. Business decisions are made every day

Sometimes it’s best to let personal feelings go.

I see lots of that on this site. People hating Craftsman because of something that happened twenty years ago, or SBD, or certain car companies. Just doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[reader2580]

I see lots of that on this site. People hating Craftsman because of something that happened twenty years ago, or SBD, or certain car companies. Just doesn’t make sense to me.

A friend hasn’t eaten Hormel products for 40 years due to something the company did 40 years ago. Hormel split off that part of the business many years ago. He still won’t eat Hormel.

A friend of mine would get us free Hormel meat for trips with a group of friends. My anti-Hormel friend would bring his own food.

 

[liliysdad]

I don’t know…I understand the soulless, corporate method of decision making and fully realize that it is not personal. Business is business, and money is money.

On the other, more personal, hand, I completely sympathize with those who draw a line in the sand and refuse to do business with a company based on an experience. I have a lot more respect for the guy who won’t touch a Hormel product than the one who doesn’t care.

Corporate decisions made a thousand miles away based solely on data may not be personal, but their results often are. A company that pisses me off may not need my money, and I’ll be glad to oblige that lack of need in the right circumstance.

 

[gahrajmahal]

When I switched multi brands a few years ago to Metabo I did it based on their 7-14” circular saw. I wanted the option to use a cord if the battery crapped out during g a job but the battery lasts so long and the power cord they designed was so bad with a lunch box sized transformer in line, that I sold the cord immediately. Since then I have upgraded to Metabo pneumatic nailers and battery drill and driver combo. The batteries last equally long on those tools too often going the whole day unlike the Milwaukee’s they replaced. Still has the loosening chuck design like Milwaukee.

 

[AEAdam]

I bought Metabo HPT nailers. The venerable NR90 and the NV65 coil nailer. These are both Hitachi (or whatever) mainstays in construction. I could detect no quality fade from Hitachi models to the newer Metabo branded models. Same weird silver green paint. Same awesome reliability.

For anyone who finds this thread specifically because of an interest in nailers, I shoot a lot of nails and a lot of 22LR. I keep all my guns pretty wet with oil and clean them periodically. Not yearly, but at least after shooting a case of stuff, so maybe monthly. Some say you can oil your guns too much. I get the concern. But all my guns cycle real smooth. Rifles I strip after just about every shoot. 22LR is dirty and leaves a rifle pretty nasty. But wood dust is also pretty nasty and corrosive.

 

[tarbellb]

Hitachis NR90 has always been a great gun. The older made in Japan models are sought over the newer made in Taiwan+China models but still a formidable gun.

The concern was more about Metabos mostly made in Germany stuff being outsourced to Asia. Not sure I've seen direct evidence of anything since the buyout, Metabo was already making stuff in Asia prior.

What is definitely happening tho is "Metabo HPT" is being slapped on Hitachi stuff, and now some consumers think they have OG Metabo (and Made in Germany) gear- as shown with some newer threads in this forum

 

[Low Definition]

Toolguyd had a good write up about it in December. https://toolguyd.com/metabo-metabo-hpt-official-name-change/

 

[Schurkey]

The enshitification of everything continues.

THANKS for that. I learned a new and very useful word today. "Enshitification" seems to be perfectly cromulent.

 

[American Locomotive]

I bought Metabo HPT nailers. The venerable NR90 and the NV65 coil nailer. These are both Hitachi (or whatever) mainstays in construction. I could detect no quality fade from Hitachi models to the newer Metabo branded models. Same weird silver green paint. Same awesome reliability.

For anyone who finds this thread specifically because of an interest in nailers, I shoot a lot of nails and a lot of 22LR. I keep all my guns pretty wet with oil and clean them periodically. Not yearly, but at least after shooting a case of stuff, so maybe monthly. Some say you can oil your guns too much. I get the concern. But all my guns cycle real smooth. Rifles I strip after just about every shoot. 22LR is dirty and leaves a rifle pretty nasty. But wood dust is also pretty nasty and corrosive.

I don't think people are worried about Hitachi nailer quality going down.

They're worried about the Metabo name being dragged through the mud. Metabo was synonymous with industrial metal work in the U.S. Pipe fitters, iron workers, ship builders, steam fitters, etc... all seem to universally love Metabo grinders. They were top quality and expensive tools with a great reputation.

Hitachi power tools were ...fine. Nothing terrible, but not the same quality level as Metabo. When Hitachi bought Metabo, they rebranded Hitachi tools as Metabo HPT while Metabo tools stayed Metabo.

Now everything is Metabo HPT. The $40 Hitachi-designed throwaway grinder now shares the same brand as the $250 premium grinder.

It's a move that will temporarily boost sales, but ultimately destroy the reputation of the Metabo brand. Stupid.

 

[finn]

I don't think people are worried about Hitachi nailer quality going down.

They're worried about the Metabo name being dragged through the mud. Metabo was synonymous with industrial metal work in the U.S. Pipe fitters, iron workers, ship builders, steam fitters, etc... all seem to universally love Metabo grinders. They were top quality and expensive tools with a great reputation.

Hitachi power tools were ...fine. Nothing terrible, but not the same quality level as Metabo. When Hitachi bought Metabo, they rebranded Hitachi tools as Metabo HPT while Metabo tools stayed Metabo.

Now everything is Metabo HPT. The $40 Hitachi-designed throwaway grinder now shares the same brand as the $250 premium grinder.

It's a move that will temporarily boost sales, but ultimately destroy the reputation of the Metabo brand. Stupid.

Why live in the past? Who really GAF about what Metabo, or any other tool company was in the good old days. The fact is, they have a new owner now, and that new owner wants to run a financially successful venture. They can’t do that by driving while looking in the rear view mirror.

I like nostalgia, too, but not when it comes to business.

 

[American Locomotive]

Why live in the past? Who really GAF about what Metabo, or any other tool company was in the good old days. The fact is, they have a new owner now, and that new owner wants to run a financially successful venture. They can’t do that by driving while looking in the rear view mirror.

I like nostalgia, too, but not when it comes to business.

I think you're misunderstanding the issue.

Metabo is a professional brand - they didn't even bother to play around in the cheap consumer-level tool market. The brand is trusted amongst professionals. You didn't even have to think about the purchase; you could just grab any Metabo grinder off the shelf at the welding store and know it would be a performer. The value in the brand was the confidence professionals had in its quality.

But the thing is, outside of industry, Metabo wasn't a brand most prople were aware of. Unlike say DeWalt or Milwaukee. Hitachi, which primarily played around in the cheaper consumer space decided they wanted to rebrand as Metabo, and bank on the reputation Metabo had in the professional space.

But that's dumb, for two reasons. Pofessionals aren't idiots. The moment they grab that "Metabo" grinder that's actually a rebranded Hitachi, and it fails to peform, they're going to chuck the thing across the room and buy something else.

Secondly. Regular joe-blows aren't likely to really know what the Metabo brand was, and are going to be indifferent towards it. Then on top of that, Hitachi did make a very well loved series of nailers and saws. So they had a good thing going there, but threw it away. Buddy borrowing his buddy's Hitachi nailer and being impressed by it, is going to be disappointed when he goes to the store and can't find a Hitachi nailer.

They are throwing away the equity both brands had, and not capitalizing on their strengths. They should have kept the Metabo and Hitachi brands separate, and leveraged the Metabo know how and manufacturing to improve their Hitachi tools if they wanted to move upmarket. Instead they're slapping the Metabo name on low end tools and calling it a day. Dumb.

 

[finn]

I think you're misunderstanding the issue.

Metabo is a professional brand - they didn't even bother to play around in the cheap consumer-level tool market. The brand is trusted amongst professionals. You didn't even have to think about the purchase; you could just grab any Metabo grinder off the shelf at the welding store and know it would be a performer. The value in the brand was the confidence professionals had in its quality.

But the thing is, outside of industry, Metabo wasn't a brand most prople were aware of. Unlike say DeWalt or Milwaukee. Hitachi, which primarily played around in the cheaper consumer space decided they wanted to rebrand as Metabo, and bank on the reputation Metabo had in the professional space.

But that's dumb, for two reasons. Pofessionals aren't idiots. The moment they grab that "Metabo" grinder that's actually a rebranded Hitachi, and it fails to peform, they're going to chuck the thing across the room and buy something else.

Secondly. Regular joe-blows aren't likely to really know what the Metabo brand was, and are going to be indifferent towards it. Then on top of that, Hitachi did make a very well loved series of nailers and saws. So they had a good thing going there, but threw it away. Buddy borrowing his buddy's Hitachi nailer and being impressed by it, is going to be disappointed when he goes to the store and can't find a Hitachi nailer.

They are throwing away the equity both brands had, and not capitalizing on their strengths. They should have kept the Metabo and Hitachi brands separate, and leveraged the Metabo know how and manufacturing to improve their Hitachi tools if they wanted to move upmarket. Instead they're slapping the Metabo name on low end tools and calling it a day. Dumb.

Makes no difference. The mere fact that they (Metabo) were sold to another company suggests to me that they were treading water financially.

Furthermore, it’s pretty common to have different grades of product in the market to serve different customers, under the same brand. Bosch does it, SBD does it, Milwaukee does it, and Makita does it. They all have more or less price leaders and higher priced lines, with various differentiation, to serve different market segments All use, or can use, the same battery platforms.

You’re also ignoring the fact that the “unique “, and not widely distributed battery system the German made Metabo tools were saddled with limited the appeal and distribution opportunities for those tools. Metabo HPT has stated in their press releases that the German sourced grinders will continue as is, except for the incorporation of the HTP Multivolt battery technology, and I haven’t heard anything negative about those batteries.

Much ado about nothing, as I see it. Companies get bought, sold, merged and liquidated every day, and the world goes on.

I personally have two German Metabo grinders. They’re among, if not The, most powerful of the ten or so in my arsenal, but not my favorite, largely because of their weight. I’m not a professional welder or fabricator, either though, but I see where some might choose them. They’re a well engineered and built product.

 

[dnschmidt]

I despise this move as well but as Sonny and Cher once sang: "The Beat Goes On." and there isn't anything we can do about it. Even the Germans fucked up this great idea of having one battery platform by Bosch going with Ampshare with other German companies going with CAS. If they couldn't agree to do it in one country how were they going to do it globally.

 

[YesIHaveAHammer]

Even the Germans fucked up this great idea of having one battery platform by Bosch going with Ampshare with other German companies going with CAS. If they couldn't agree to do it in one country how were they going to do it globally.

Agreed. Both systems have one lead brand, and a bunch of smaller brands who don't compete with the lead brand, mostly due to being specialists. Bosch and Metabo couldn't coexist in that.

CAS Battery: Our partner brands

Welcome to the CAS brand world. ✓ More than 45 manufacturers ✓ One battery ► Discover the battery alliance.

cordless-alliance-system.com

Ampshare

EXPERT BRANDS ON ONE BATTERY SYSTEM

www.bosch-professional.com

 

[dchawk81]

THANKS for that. I learned a new and very useful word today. "Enshitification" seems to be perfectly cromulent.

I learned that term from a Canadian girl complaining about jeans that don't fit her **** anymore.

 

[neophyte]

I despise this move as well but as Sonny and Cher once sang: "The Beat Goes On." and there isn't anything we can do about it. Even the Germans fucked up this great idea of having one battery platform by Bosch going with Ampshare with other German companies going with CAS. If they couldn't agree to do it in one country how were they going to do it globally.

Festool doesn’t use the same battery system, (ie. battery design), for tools using batteries with the sane voltage, produced during the same time period, and this was not only in the past, but also with current tool models.
Fein also used to vary the battery design by tool model, but Fein had much fewer cordless tools in their lineup in the past, and they must have realized the issue, and have now switched to Ampshare, probably because Fein and Bosch occasionally collaborate on stuff.

Incidentally, the German power tool industry “invented” the modular tool box system, (Festo/Tanos/Systainer), but then Bosch started using a different box system, after previously using the Tanos system for some items, and now almost every separate tool manufacturer has their own “modular” box system that doesn’t work with the other systems, including multiple separate German made systems.
The cost to switch over to any one system could be in the thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars depending on how many separate brands and models of tools a person might want boxes for.

 

[Nobody-named-Olli]

Festool did that on purpose with the Ergo batteries, because they are offering a mains adapter for those small sanders utilizing said Ergo batteries. Whether that in itself was smart or not, I won’t comment on. What was smart, realizing that without a mechanical lock-out, people would use the mains adapter on all the other tools, with catastrophic results. Ergo batteries are still compatible with the same chargers their regular 18V batteries use. So the only inconvenience is that Ergo batteries only work with the sanders they were designed for. And if you made the decision to buy these, you knew that.

As far as I know, Festool was supposed to be a part of Ampshare when it launched, but pulled out in the last minute. At least that is what I have been told by people who saw pages of the presentation pre-release/ announcement. Whether that is true or not, I don’t know - I couldn’t prove it one way or the other. And let’s not forget the whole TTS/Festool/SawStop vs. Bosch Reaxx saga …

Festool is now trying something “interesting”, sourcing tools in China/ via Chervon to cut engineering cost/ time on releasing non-core-competency battery powered tools. How smart that is, only time will tell, and it’s another topic I won’t comment on. And with that move, they still kind of doubled down on keeping their own battery platforms alive for the foreseeable future.



Metabo still has a few unique tools that stand out, this one for example: https://www.metabo.com/de/de/maschi...tung/lackfraese/lf-850-s-lackfraese/601049500

Personally I’ve encountered Metabo as a brand wearing their noses so high, they could scratch them on the pole of the Empire State Building.

Given what I see at suppliers and retailers, I give them a couple more years before they go the way of the Dodo. At least as a tool manufacturer. Maybe they can sustain as a CAS battery/ powertrain supplier, one way or another.


Bosch (Professional/ blue for those that actually can buy both lines in their country) is now proudly playing the “Battery of the month club” game and has at least released a couple of tools that were asked for, for a long time and the Milwaukee gang has had for years. They are also venturing into hand tools, electrical testers/multimeters trying to please the “we need everything blue” crowd.

From what I read, Bosch - and I’m talking the mother of all motherships - is sailing in troubled waters as well. And not a horse I’d bet on right now.

This post states my personal opinion, and only that.

Kind regards,
Olli

 

[Steve_P]

I think you're misunderstanding the issue.

Metabo is a professional brand - they didn't even bother to play around in the cheap consumer-level tool market. The brand is trusted amongst professionals. You didn't even have to think about the purchase; you could just grab any Metabo grinder off the shelf at the welding store and know it would be a performer. The value in the brand was the confidence professionals had in its quality.

But the thing is, outside of industry, Metabo wasn't a brand most prople were aware of. Unlike say DeWalt or Milwaukee. Hitachi, which primarily played around in the cheaper consumer space decided they wanted to rebrand as Metabo, and bank on the reputation Metabo had in the professional space.

But that's dumb, for two reasons. Pofessionals aren't idiots. The moment they grab that "Metabo" grinder that's actually a rebranded Hitachi, and it fails to peform, they're going to chuck the thing across the room and buy something else.

Secondly. Regular joe-blows aren't likely to really know what the Metabo brand was, and are going to be indifferent towards it. Then on top of that, Hitachi did make a very well loved series of nailers and saws. So they had a good thing going there, but threw it away. Buddy borrowing his buddy's Hitachi nailer and being impressed by it, is going to be disappointed when he goes to the store and can't find a Hitachi nailer.

They are throwing away the equity both brands had, and not capitalizing on their strengths. They should have kept the Metabo and Hitachi brands separate, and leveraged the Metabo know how and manufacturing to improve their Hitachi tools if they wanted to move upmarket. Instead they're slapping the Metabo name on low end tools and calling it a day. Dumb.

This. There is a reason why established auto manufacturer's launched premium brands like Acura, Infinity, Lexus, Genesis, and why there are Ram trucks- to differentiate their premium/specialty offerings from their main model lines. How the folks that bought Metabo don't understand this is baffling. There's a reason Toyota isn't selling a Yaris under the Lexus brand.

As said, at least in the US, Metabo has almost zero name recognition among the masses; this is even dumber than the US launch of Flex cordless tools as this is going to probably destroy the Metabo name as a premium brand in a few years.

 

[neophyte]

Festool did that on purpose with the Ergo batteries, because they are offering a mains adapter for those small sanders utilizing said Ergo batteries. Whether that in itself was smart or not, I won’t comment on. What was smart, realizing that without a mechanical lock-out, people would use the mains adapter on all the other tools, with catastrophic results. Ergo batteries are still compatible with the same chargers their regular 18V batteries use. So the only inconvenience is that Ergo batteries only work with the sanders they were designed for. And if you made the decision to buy these, you knew that.

As far as I know, Festool was supposed to be a part of Ampshare when it launched, but pulled out in the last minute. At least that is what I have been told by people who saw pages of the presentation pre-release/ announcement. Whether that is true or not, I don’t know - I couldn’t prove it one way or the other. And let’s not forget the whole TTS/Festool/SawStop vs. Bosch Reaxx saga …

Festool is now trying something “interesting”, sourcing tools in China/ via Chervon to cut engineering cost/ time on releasing non-core-competency battery powered tools. How smart that is, only time will tell, and it’s another topic I won’t comment on. And with that move, they still kind of doubled down on keeping their own battery platforms alive for the foreseeable future.



Metabo still has a few unique tools that stand out, this one for example: https://www.metabo.com/de/de/maschi...tung/lackfraese/lf-850-s-lackfraese/601049500

Personally I’ve encountered Metabo as a brand wearing their noses so high, they could scratch them on the pole of the Empire State Building.

Given what I see at suppliers and retailers, I give them a couple more years before they go the way of the Dodo. At least as a tool manufacturer. Maybe they can sustain as a CAS battery/ powertrain supplier, one way or another.


Bosch (Professional/ blue for those that actually can buy both lines in their country) is now proudly playing the “Battery of the month club” game and has at least released a couple of tools that were asked for, for a long time and the Milwaukee gang has had for years. They are also venturing into hand tools, electrical testers/multimeters trying to please the “we need everything blue” crowd.

From what I read, Bosch - and I’m talking the mother of all motherships - is sailing in troubled waters as well. And not a horse I’d bet on right now.

This post states my personal opinion, and only that.

Kind regards,
Olli

The sanders weren’t the first time Festool had proprietary batteries for particular tool models.
Back during the NiCd days, Festool, (at the time Festo), had two cordless drill models, the CDD and TDD that were both 12v drills, but which used completely different batteries, with the CDD model using an “L” shaped battery, and the TDD drill using a standard rectangular block, although with the top stem design some older batteries used.
In Europe, there was also a 9.6v version of the CDD drill.
In Europe, the fast “12 minute” charger that was used for the CDD charger was a dual purpose charger, that had separate charging bays to charge the CDD battery, and the TDD batteries, since the batteries had different charging/connector designs.
This charger design left potentially live connectors exposed, so the original chargers were modified for the US market, removing the TDD charging bay, therefore requiring different chargers for the contemporarily made CDD batteries, and TDD batteries.
For the European market, NiMH batteries were also offered, which were never offered in the USA.
The weird CDD battery type was for ergonomic reasons, since the drive system actually had the motor mounted in the handle, perpendicular to the chuck axis, with the drive passing thru a right angle drive, to the gearbox, before hitting the centrotec arbor.
On later models of the drill, Festool was able to switch to a more compact motor, which then eliminated the need for the right angle drive since the new motor was compact enough to keep the same overall head length and Festool simply switched to using a slide in brick battery, of a style similar to what is used nowadays.
Festool made multiple drill voltages though.
The new chargers would not work with the old batteries though, and the old batteries would not work with the new chargers, and Festool didn’t make battery adapters.
I think Festool then switched to standard 18v lithium battery system, which may not have been comparable with most of the older lower voltage NiCD batteries, and again, with the older chargers also not compatible.
Festool then made some other tools using these same batteries, implying there might actually be dome sort of battery system approach.
Then Festool came out with the sanders, using proprietary batteries, which then basically ignored the idea of a “modular” system for their cordless tools.

As for the Festool sanders, I presume they were made to compete with some specific sander, (I recall one in particular, but can’t find it at the moment), that had exceptional ergonomics, since most power tool manufacturers (Makita, Bosch, etc.), just use the normal brand brick batteries on their cordless sanders.

As for Chervon manufacturing tools for Festool, that is likely a legacy arrangement, based on the fact that FLEX, an originally German tool brand going back almost 100 years, used to manufacture tools for Festool, sometimes with modifications on a tool sold under the FLEX brand, and Chervon bought FLEX, leaving Festool to find a new supplier, or have some tools made by Chervon, in China now since Chervon seems to have shut down the German production facilities.
The Festool PS1 jigsaw for instance was made by FLEX, but with the addition of the lateral blade guides Festool is known for. Festool may have taken over production of some of the later models.
Some of the Festool sanders might have been made by FLEX.
I forget what else.
The reciprocating saws are likely coming from FLEX, and now Chervon, because FLEX specialized in reciprocating saws, which they made for other brands such as Fein, Metabo, and for Ridgid Europe for sale under the Ridgid brand. (The professional pipe tools brand).




Incidentally, “back in the day” it used to be common for power tool manufacturers to make adapters do that the slide on batteries that started to become common, could be used on older tools people had purchased when the older battery systems got discontinued.

 

[finn]

The sanders weren’t the first time Festool had proprietary batteries for particular tool models.
Back during the NiCd days, Festool, (at the time Festo), had two cordless drill models, the CDD and TDD that were both 12v drills, but which used completely different batteries, with the CDD model using an “L” shaped battery, and the TDD drill using a standard rectangular block, although with the top stem design some older batteries used.
In Europe, there was also a 9.6v version of the CDD drill.
In Europe, the fast “12 minute” charger that was used for the CDD charger was a dual purpose charger, that had separate charging bays to charge the CDD battery, and the TDD batteries, since the batteries had different charging/connector designs.
This charger design left potentially live connectors exposed, so the original chargers were modified for the US market, removing the TDD charging bay, therefore requiring different chargers for the contemporarily made CDD batteries, and TDD batteries.
For the European market, NiMH batteries were also offered, which were never offered in the USA.
The weird CDD battery type was for ergonomic reasons, since the drive system actually had the motor mounted in the handle, perpendicular to the chuck axis, with the drive passing thru a right angle drive, to the gearbox, before hitting the centrotec arbor.
On later models of the drill, Festool was able to switch to a more compact motor, which then eliminated the need for the right angle drive since the new motor was compact enough to keep the same overall head length and Festool simply switched to using a slide in brick battery, of a style similar to what is used nowadays.
Festool made multiple drill voltages though.
The new chargers would not work with the old batteries though, and the old batteries would not work with the new chargers, and Festool didn’t make battery adapters.
I think Festool then switched to standard 18v lithium battery system, which may not have been comparable with most of the older lower voltage NiCD batteries, and again, with the older chargers also not compatible.
Festool then made some other tools using these same batteries, implying there might actually be dome sort of battery system approach.
Then Festool came out with the sanders, using proprietary batteries, which then basically ignored the idea of a “modular” system for their cordless tools.

As for the Festool sanders, I presume they were made to compete with some specific sander, (I recall one in particular, but can’t find it at the moment), that had exceptional ergonomics, since most power tool manufacturers (Makita, Bosch, etc.), just use the normal brand brick batteries on their cordless sanders.

As for Chervon manufacturing tools for Festool, that is likely a legacy arrangement, based on the fact that FLEX, an originally German tool brand going back almost 100 years, used to manufacture tools for Festool, sometimes with modifications on a tool sold under the FLEX brand, and Chervon bought FLEX, leaving Festool to find a new supplier, or have some tools made by Chervon, in China now since Chervon seems to have shut down the German production facilities.
The Festool PS1 jigsaw for instance was made by FLEX, but with the addition of the lateral blade guides Festool is known for. Festool may have taken over production of some of the later models.
Some of the Festool sanders might have been made by FLEX.
I forget what else.
The reciprocating saws are likely coming from FLEX, and now Chervon, because FLEX specialized in reciprocating saws, which they made for other brands such as Fein, Metabo, and for Ridgid Europe for sale under the Ridgid brand. (The professional pipe tools brand).




Incidentally, “back in the day” it used to be common for power tool manufacturers to make adapters do that the slide on batteries that started to become common, could be used on older tools people had purchased when the older battery systems got discontinued.

A long and somewhat sordid history. Sort of supports my personal opinion that tools purchased as technology is rapidly evolving aren’t long term investments. They’re for use NOW, since there’s no guarantee they’ll be supported years down the road. Especially those from niche manufacturers.

Also supports MetaboHPT‘s decision to commonize battery platforms for the German built products sold here.

 

[Nobody-named-Olli]

@neophyte Thanks for the in-depth explanation of Festo(ol) manufacturing history!

Kind regards,
Olli

 

[whateg01]

I think you're misunderstanding the issue.

Metabo is a professional brand - they didn't even bother to play around in the cheap consumer-level tool market. The brand is trusted amongst professionals. You didn't even have to think about the purchase; you could just grab any Metabo grinder off the shelf at the welding store and know it would be a performer. The value in the brand was the confidence professionals had in its quality.

But the thing is, outside of industry, Metabo wasn't a brand most prople were aware of. Unlike say DeWalt or Milwaukee. Hitachi, which primarily played around in the cheaper consumer space decided they wanted to rebrand as Metabo, and bank on the reputation Metabo had in the professional space.

But that's dumb, for two reasons. Pofessionals aren't idiots. The moment they grab that "Metabo" grinder that's actually a rebranded Hitachi, and it fails to peform, they're going to chuck the thing across the room and buy something else.

Secondly. Regular joe-blows aren't likely to really know what the Metabo brand was, and are going to be indifferent towards it. Then on top of that, Hitachi did make a very well loved series of nailers and saws. So they had a good thing going there, but threw it away. Buddy borrowing his buddy's Hitachi nailer and being impressed by it, is going to be disappointed when he goes to the store and can't find a Hitachi nailer.

They are throwing away the equity both brands had, and not capitalizing on their strengths. They should have kept the Metabo and Hitachi brands separate, and leveraged the Metabo know how and manufacturing to improve their Hitachi tools if they wanted to move upmarket. Instead they're slapping the Metabo name on low end tools and calling it a day. Dumb.

Maybe you should be their CEO

 

[American Locomotive]

Maybe you should be their CEO

You act like being a CEO means you're good at something. Over the past 3 decades we've seen countless CEOs absolutely destroy once legendary brands and companies with very poor decisions. Then get hired again at a different company and destroy that one.

 

[whateg01]

You act like being a CEO means you're good at something. Over the past 3 decades we've seen countless CEOs absolutely destroy once legendary brands and companies with very poor decisions. Then get hired again at a different company and destroy that one.

I'm just saying, you seem to know what is best for the company. Why aren't you running it?

 

[American Locomotive]

I'm just saying, you seem to know what is best for the company. Why aren't you running it?

You don't need to be a chef to know the food tastes bad.

 

[whateg01]

You don't need to be a chef to know the food tastes bad.

No but there's a difference between saying the food ***** here and trying the chef how to cook the food.