Metal building open cell off gassing

[Titan1]

I recently had my 40x60x16 steel building insulated with open cell foam. It gets extremely hot here and I wanted the most R value I could get, which is why I didn't go closed cell initially.

Plan was to put R panel inside up 8 feet or so, otherwise no covering over the foam up high, except to paint it white.

It has been 3 weeks since the spray. Doors have been open 90% of the days since then airing out. The smell is so strong with the doors (2 14x16) shut that nobody can even stay in there. Even when the temps are down in the 40s, the smell is present. Significantly worse when its warm.

Anyway, the contractor hired wants to make it right. They have no idea why this happened. Research tells me the mix or application was incorrect. It also looks like this smell won't get any better anytime soon if the mix was bad.

So I think im looking at a complete tear out. I'm ok with this as I want a safe environment for my 2 year old who will be playing out there often.

My questions are:

Go with closed cell after the tear out? Will this have a better chance of not smelling? Paint everything after?

How thick can closed cell be? Some say 2" but I saw others went 3" on here.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Toyomech]

For there to be a smell lingering after the install something went wrong with the ratio or the installation was incorrect. If you post pics sometimes coloration can tell the story if it is on the surface. An experienced foamer should spot an off ratio condition right away before burying it under more foam. I would expect it to be torn out.

We specialize in and prefer closed cell but I wouldnt blame this on open cell as theyre both processed the same way. Closed cell max thickness can be anything you want depending on manufacturer but has a diminishing return after a certain thickness. See this chart...

 

[mepstein]

Its a know issue in people’s homes. Either mix was wrong or put on too heavy, too fast or all three. Probably needs to come out.

 

[Titan1]

Thanks for the info. Looks like 2-3" will be good enough either way. Right now the I beams and purlins are not totally covered, so I would probably gain more if they make sure and cover all those up.

I have been all over the walls and ceiling looking for certain areas that smell worse. I can't really tell any difference.

I have a different foam contractor coming out to check out the work done. If they first company tears it out, I'm not sure I even want them doing the re-spray.

Ill work on getting some pics.

I also spoke with a tech from the manufacturer. He is aware of the situation from the company who sprayed it. He was very vague on his answers. He told me to cover it up but wouldn't specify if he means paint it or if he is talking about a sealed covering like drywall. That convo made me even more uneasy about the existing foam and I am leaning more towards tearing it out.

 

[MrSurly]

I had mine foamed July '17. (see my build link below) There was an odor at first but it went away in days. I had both open and closed sprayed at the same time. I did a TON of research before doing it and even looked into the many DIY systems. Because of the many stories of gassing if done wrong, I elected to hire one of the long-established companies for fear that if *I* did it I could get it wrong. Clearly a lot of learning-curve involved and I didn't want to take a chance on MY abilities or the new kid on the block. Is your guy new to this?

 

[Titan1]

The company I chose is fairly large, with locations all around TX and even in NM and LA. I got 5-6 quotes and they were in the middle.

They should know what they were doing, but they say they have never run into anything like this. That's the outfit as a whole at least, the person who actually did the spraying...I'm not sure.

There's no way I could even be in that building a few days after they sprayed. As soon as I shut those doors the odor was pretty stout.

I feel like I have a fairly sensitive nose, so I had a few other people come in to make sure I wasn't crazy.

 

[karoc]

Its post like this that we all can learn from. I watch a Youtube where a house had the same problem which required them to completely remove the roof so that they could get to all of it. The company said the same thing,never happen before. Which I believe that the mix has to be just right and the temperature has to be above 70.

 

[dcg9381]

Anyway, the contractor hired wants to make it right. They have no idea why this happened. Research tells me the mix or application was incorrect. It also looks like this smell won't get any better anytime soon if the mix was bad.

I've had 2 homes and 1 shop done in open cell. It does have a smell at first, but not so bad that you can't deal with it. Something is WAAY off. If possible, the best source of what's wrong is likely the manufacturer of the foam itself. Do you know who made it or have you tried to contact them?

It seems like mix being off would show in problems of expansion and not curing, but I dunno..

I don't see how you get around removal and re-install for remediation.

 

[Titan1]

A new contractor came by a few minutes ago to check it out. I wanted to get his opinion since he uses the same manufacturer as well as see if I want to try and use him for the respray.

He immediately pointed out multiple issues. First thing was the texture of the foam, its way off. Looks like it was too low of a spray temp (actual chemical) as well as the substrate being too cold. The foam has very large air pockets throughout and is more of a crunchy pumice stone type texture. Compared to the open cell foam in my house, it is wayyyy different.

The other issue looks like contamination from closed cell foam getting in the mix. They initially sprayed some close cell on one wall and then realized they were supposed to do open cell. Looks like they did not switch over correctly. So the foam has cured at different rates (or not at all in places). There are large places where the foam is almost stringy, like cotton candy. A quick search shows that if a small amount from one type of foam gets mixed, the foam will not cure properly and smell for a long time. Not to mention the loss in R-value and future shrinkage.

Both of these issues should have been noticed immediately by both the sprayer and the guys who came out to see what was wrong.

Either way, the foam is coming out. Now I have to see what the original contractor is willing to do. I doubt he will be immediately willing to tear out the foam plus refund so I can hire a new person.

They do this all day every day, so they should be capable of doing this right. But to me it is kind of like a quick oil change place who doesn't replace your drain plug...do you go back again?

 

[jhelrey]

Keep us updated.

 

[brianpgriset]

Thats a bummer. Had mine done recently in closed cell and smell was gone the next day. No issues since and multiple people in it.

 

[mepstein]

If you use the same company to respray, make sure they send their most experienced crew, not the new guys. Ask the guy in charge to be their to inspect or a manufacture rep who knows what they are doing. Chances are they will do it correctly the second time around.

 

[Titan1]

Yeah, I am definitely going to request different guys to spray and their newest spray equipment.

You are right, chances of another failure would be low. As I type this, I am thinking about all the stuff they will most likely ruin as they pull out the old foam.

Even just the extra pieces of c purlin that the garage door openers will probably need to be replaced. The open cell expanded up and behind those, the closed cell won't be able to cover it.

I appreciate all the help and guidance. I will keep everyone updated as I go.

 

[dcg9381]

Either way, the foam is coming out. Now I have to see what the original contractor is willing to do. I doubt he will be immediately willing to tear out the foam plus refund so I can hire a new person.

Wow.. Stay on that contractor. We've found that many contractors are running multiple crews and that it often pays to ask for the "experienced crew" - even when it means waiting weeks / a month.

I'll be curious to see how they can remediate. If it's all cured, it can be pulled out - so that's a big plus. The labor involved in getting it all off, disposing of the waste, etc - big job, I hope the contractor comes through. I'd likely also start writing down license plates just in case these guys decide not to come through... Are these contractors licensed in your state? Around here, they don't have to be...

 

[Titan1]

Yes, they are licensed and a large enough company that this should not be any sort of major financial issue for them.

Right now I am confident the contractor will do everything they can to make it right. I'm just not sure that will be what I was expecting by the end.

 

[Titan1]

We are 3 days into the tear out. Unfortunately, holes were poked in the metal roof in multiple places so now those panels will need replacing. I will also need to replace some wood framing that had the closed cell surrounding it. This has turned out to be quite a mess.

The foam is 80% torn out. They have mentioned pressure washing the rest off. While it does sound like a good way to get that last junk out, what will happen with the runoff? I am a little concerned it will wash that smell down and then soak into the concrete. Maybe I am overthinking that.

I won't have it sprayed until at least next week. I want to get in there after its totally clean and make sure no smell lingers. At that point I am thinking 2" closed cell everywhere. Hopefully that will create a total vapor barrier and if anything is left it will be sealed up.

 

[Toyomech]

Glad its getting addressed. Jobs like these are what have given spray foam a bad wrap when a company doesn’t quickly address issues or goes out of business after a bad install. Pressure washing is pretty much industry standard for cleaning and prep of metal before foam.

 

[Titan1]

Thanks Toyomech. Yeah, this is why I used a large company to begin with - the worst case scenario. I think this is actually worse than I imagined could happen, ha.

You see any issue pressure washing the rest of the foam off? I said they should shop vac the water up

 

[Toyomech]

Large company is good because they have the finances to eat something like this. Large can also mean they need tons of installers, so you get guys with 3 days or less of training thrown into the field who haven't learned to "read" the foam as its being applied.

I can tell you that an experienced spray foam installer can spot off ratio foam almost instantly. Things like pattern, color, cream time, speed of rise are constantly being observed while you spray.

The A side component in spray foam can crystallize in hoses in as little as a week if you don't circulate material or spray with that rig. Then screens get plugged and you get resin rich and have issues like this. Just like any industry you get some bad apples who are lazy or just wanna finish and get out of there and not stop for 30 mins to address an issue whether thats cleaning a gun or whatever.

In your case they are taking care of it and thats great and a big relief. This story could have went totally differently if they hadn't. Out of the hundreds of jobs we do a year I can't tell you how many customers ask me about the youtube video of a horrible spray foam install that ruined a house. That video has millions of views. The contractor disappeared/went out of business and didn't have insurance. Bad stories spread like wildfire and it stinks for our industry. An analogy on this forum I have seen are some very unfortunate concrete jobs. In the end it doesn't mean concrete is a terrible product, it means someone did a terrible mix or install job, or cut some corner with prep etc.

Sorry that was long winded but things like this really bother me. As a spray foam contractor we are always on the defensive because of these bad jobs by others. Im just glad it is getting resolved and you can finally enjoy your building soon.

As far as pressure washing that is what we would do to make sure its completely gone. Then get rid of the water, make sure its dry with a moisture meter before installation. You can buy your own if you wanna check them or have them check while you watch. Below 15% on wood is best even if you have to wait for it to dry out more.

 

[karoc]

What makes GJ awesome, its when someone who knows shares information. And individual who also shares their problems but does give a contractor a chance to make it right, Good job guys, learned lot here.

 

[Titan1]

I REALLY appreciate that. Yes, I absolutely agree this could have been avoided if the guy spraying took the time to stop and fix stuff. The other contractor who came in said that portions did look like the B side of the mix was high.

I actually haven't even seen that video about the house. But another guy did mention that video. Luckily, any wood that it touched is removable, so its mostly just steel. We don't have moisture problems here either.

I do plan to try and preheat the building before they come in to spray again. I have a 80,000 btu propane heater and well as a few electric heaters.

I haven't posted pics here or given quite all the details, just in case the situation went way south on me.

I do have a quick question for those much smarter than me - after scraping and everything, quite a bit of the interior side of the sheet metal paint has been scraped off. Exterior is bricked. Will closed cell be enough to encapsulate that and prevent major rust? Or should it be primed first (then will foam stick)?

 

[Toyomech]

You can prime if you want. Primer is generally not needed except on some aluminum. Foam will adhere to the surface layer so if surface is flaking or loose it needs to be addressed.

Heat is good but watch for moisture introduced by propane heater. Im not in your climate zone so I dont know your temperatures but if the building starts condensating it can’t be sprayed until dry.

 

[dcg9381]

If you're using closed cell, that should prevent rust as it seals... Given that most of the places that sell building steel want to sell insulation the rumor is that they'll deny warranty on any foam insulated building, but in reality, I've NEVER seen one that had a claim. Lots of buildings here in the 10-20 year old range.

> I do plan to try and preheat the building before they come in to spray again. I have a 80,000 btu propane heater and well as a few electric heaters.

This may help, but the real detail is in the pre-heating of tanks of foam. When I had my building done, they dropped off two huge drums of the stuff, maybe you could let that sit (heated) for 12-24 hours? But again, they should be the ones handling this.

 

[Toyomech]

This may help, but the real detail is in the pre-heating of tanks of foam. When I had my building done, they dropped off two huge drums of the stuff, maybe you could let that sit (heated) for 12-24 hours? But again, they should be the ones handling this.

Oh man. This is absolutely the responsibility of the installer and should never be put on the customer.

 

[jhelrey]

How did they poke holes in the roof? Sawzall with a scraper blade?!

 

[Titan1]

I know the prep shouldn't be my concern. But I figure if there is anything I can do that is cheap and easy to make sure this goes perfect, I'll do it.

They used a variety of scrapers, some were thin and wide like a big drywall knife, some like a concrete scraper, and apparently one must have been using Aquaman's trident. It must have taken some serious oomph for a few of those holes.

Another question - I have 36 LED 4ft fixtures on the ceiling (costco linkables). 3 rows of 12. On the two outside rows I just sent a self tapping screw through the fixture into the purlin to mount it. I had planned on having them envelop all the purlins with the closed cell foam, but that will mean I am removing all those lights. That isn't much of a problem, but I'm not sure on reinstalling them over foam. Can those lights just mount right on the foam with some longer screws? Or would I need them to shave that bottom side to expose the metal again?