Metal-cutting chop saw - question

[mark-NJ]

I'm just thinking out loud...feel free to poke holes in this idea:

I have a Makita 14" abrasive cut-off saw. It spins at 3800RPM. And like all such tools, it makes a freakin' mess. That's just the nature of the tool...

I would love to have a similar 14" saw but with a carbide-toothed blade. Basically the same tool as my Makita, however, such saws spin much, much slower...around 1500RPM. They're a bit cleaner to use, but they're expensive, and I can't justify the purchase.

Here's my thought: I have one of these. Could I put a carbide blade on my Makita and use this speed controller to slow it down to 1500RPM? Would that work? Would it be safe? It seems doable, but I'm sure I'm overlooking something. Thoughts?

 

[lis2323]

I don’t know the answer and don’t need to do what you want to accomplish but I am interested in the replies. [emoji41]


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[swavescatter]

Search around YouTube. There was a guy that was doing something similar but showed that the torque output from motors designed for higher RPM just wasn't great. I think he ended up finding and swapping a motor to a miter saw that worked.

I just bit the bullet and ordered an Evo 14" metal saw myself. I've been using their 10" metal miter saw and it's fine, but the newer models seem to do much better at keeping metal chips out of my neck/arms.

 

[Whitworth]

If you want to cut steel, forget about it. Still far too fast for that. Cold saws, (if that's what you're thinking of) move at 50 to 200 rpm and use coolant.
Plus the torque issue as well.

 

[slowtwitch73]

The newer metal cutting saws cut steel no problem, no coolant.

 

[R_Holiday]

Not worth the effort. I think you might be able to use a smaller blade that can handle the higher rpm but you’d lose some cutting depth. That’s what I surmise at least. I’m in the market for a dry cut saw as well. The makita lc1230 gets great reviews. I’m leaning towards the skilsaw SPT62MTC-22. It gets good reviews as well, is a little cheaper, and comes with a nice Diablo blade.

 

[lis2323]

The newer metal cutting saws cut steel no problem, no coolant.

Cold saws require coolant. Dry cut saws do not.


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[mark-NJ]

Dry cut blades spin at 1500RPM, and I suspect I can slow to that number....but you're right: I'm going to lose a lot of torque...

 

[lis2323]

Not worth the effort. I think you might be able to use a smaller blade that can handle the higher rpm but you’d lose some cutting depth. That’s what I surmise at least. I’m in the market for a dry cut saw as well. The makita lc1230 gets great reviews. I’m leaning towards the skilsaw SPT62MTC-22. It gets good reviews as well, is a little cheaper, and comes with a nice Diablo blade.

I suspect you would be happy with the Makita dry cut saw. I'm really pleased with mine.




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[mark-NJ]

I'm certain I could be very happy with that saw! But it's just not in the budget...

 

[R_Holiday]

I suspect you would be happy with the Makita dry cut saw. I'm really pleased with mine.

I’m sure I would. It’s more than $200 more than the skilsaw dry cut though.

 

[vanapplebomb]

Dry cut blades spin at 1500RPM, and I suspect I can slow to that number....but you're right: I'm going to lose a lot of torque...

Your shooting yourself in the foot, twice. One, the gear ratio on the abrasive saw motor is wrong, so you have half the torque To the blade as a dry cut saw. Two, dialing back the speed with the universal motor speed controller has the side effect of dialing back power.

If you want to run a 14” carbide dry cut blade, you “could” with that set up, but don’t expect it to chew through material at anywhere near the same rate as you would with a proper dry cut saw which has the proper gear ratio. I doubt it would match the cut rate as the abrasive saw. You would have to go slow to keep it from bogging down. Then you spent all that money to retrofit a chop saw for no benefit apart from no abrasive grit.

I would personally save up for a dedicated dry cut saw. The Evolution dry cut saws are a pretty good bang for the buck, and can be had for less than $300.

 

[4miller1]

Hey Mark if your makita saw is the 2414b ive been looking for one. Shoot me a pm if your interested in selling.
Thanks. Jeff

 

[Ign]

Search around YouTube. There was a guy that was doing something similar but showed that the torque output from motors designed for higher RPM just wasn't great. I think he ended up finding and swapping a motor to a miter saw that worked.

I just bit the bullet and ordered an Evo 14" metal saw myself. I've been using their 10" metal miter saw and it's fine, but the newer models seem to do much better at keeping metal chips out of my neck/arms.

This

 

[tarbellb]

It's been tried before, typically with poor results.

With the cost of these blades you will be better off just saving up for a dedicated saw. The 14" metal only Evo is a excellent saw for the price, or consider getting a bench top band saw like Northern Klutch 49466 <$300.

 

[Renegade1LI]

I have a dewalt dw872 it spins at 1500 rpm gives a really nice finish on the cut, if I were to buy another I would try the makita lc1230, the base is much nicer than the dewalt. A decent cold cut saw like the grizzly t28366 seems like a good value for the price or the HF 4 x 6 band saw with the right blade cuts a lot of different metals. The draw back to a metal cut off saw is you generally can't cut anything harder than 42rc or you'll kill the blade. Trying to slow a single phase motor greatly reduces power, you could look into a 110 volt single phase vfd but I would be skeptical on a saw.

 

[swavescatter]

I'm waiting on my Evo order.

 

[vanapplebomb]

you could look into a 110 volt single phase vfd but I would be skeptical on a saw.

This will not work. These saws use universal motors. VFDs will only work with Induction motors.

Universal motors don’t care what kind of current you throw at them. AC or DC, it’s all the same. They maintain opposing magnetic fields by using the commutator to switch which windings on the rotor are energized. Because the stator and the rotor are fed from the same source, that opposition will always remain constant, no matter what direction the electrical flow is. That is why they are just as happy to run on AC as they are DC, and why a VFD is of no use.

Induction motors are a different animal entirely, because the rotors magnetic field is generated by eddy currents induced into the rotor core by the alternating magnetic field from AC current in the stator windings. The AC frequency drives the speed of the motor. The higher the frequency, the faster the rotor has to spin to follow the alternating stator field. In reality, the rotor must “slip” just a little bit to generate torque. If it were to match the speed of the alternating fields there would be zero torque generated. That’s why we see 1725rpm motors for 60HZ four poll induction motors rather than 1800rpm, or 3450rpm rather than 3600 rpm single poll induction motors.

 

[mark-NJ]

^^^^ Excellent explanation of universal vs. induction motors!

Aside from that, you've all convinced me: save up and get a cold chop saw.

Thanks guys!

 

[mark-NJ]

Hey Mark if your makita saw is the 2414b ive been looking for one. Shoot me a pm if your interested in selling.
Thanks. Jeff

To keep the story simple, I said that "I" have a Makita. Truth be told, it belongs to a friend who has loaned it to me on a semi-permanent basis. It was his dad's, the dad passed, my friend inherited it....but doesn't do any metalwork, so it's in my possession. Bottom line: It's not mine to sell.

Sorry...

 

[Bogie1632]

In a pinch Diablo makes a very nice 48 tooth blade that works in circular and table saws. Might get you by until you can afford a dedicated saw. I've cut 1/4" plate and 1/4" wall tubing with nice, clean cuts using a battery circular saw although it claims to cut up to 1/2".

Between that blade and my 14" dry cut I've not needed anything else.

Just a thought anyway.

V/R
Bogie

 

[mark-NJ]

That's an interesting idea. I have tablesaw....not an ideal situation, but it might get me through an upcoming project...

 

[strength_and_power]

I’ve had:
an abrasive chop saw
A dry cut saw
Scotchman 350mm cold saw
Import 7x12 band saw
USA made 9x12 band saw

Chop saw was the first to go, too messy, inaccurate and loud
Dry cut saw was ok, cut fast, reasonably accurate. Downside: very loud and the chips it throws go everywhere. Blades had decent life but once you lost a tooth, they went downhill really fast.Sold it, should have kept it for general use.
Cold saw: most accurate, also the most expensive machine, most expensive blades, multiple tooth count blades for different wall thicknesses. Requires coolant that gets everywhere. Blades can be resharpened infinitely at a reasonable cost if there isn’t and stripped teeth. If teeth are stripped, the blade has to be ground down until the lowest spot is now the highest spot. At that point you can have a different number of teeth from original ground. 3 phase power or converter required. Mitering head made cutting angles and returning to 90* a breeze. Gave this saw to a buddy with a big shop and have decent access to it when needed.
I’m currently using the import 7x12 which is decent. A good blade and care adjusting the down feed rate gives a straight cut that works well with a MIG gun with .035 and some decent squares and clamps
Downside: angle cut require moving the fence and resquaring when returning to 90*. This downside is shared by the dry cut saws as well. Doing this a few times and you start looking at ways to complete your project and not use angle cuts
The 9x12 is in storage, pretty much the same as the 7x12, just higher capacity.

Not knowing your project or the frequency you do metalwork, I’d look for a small bandsaw. It will be slower and probably less accurate than a dry cut saw but replacement blades are about 1/4 the price of a dry cut blade and are much more forgiving. Chips are much more contained than the dry cut saw and so much quieter.

Dry cut saws roll the chip and all the heat goes into the chip and gets flung. The hot chips will embed themselves in the soles of your shoes/boots. Gloves, eye protection( tight fitting goggles work best), and ear protection are an absolute must, long sleeves aren’t a bad idea.


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[lis2323]

I found a trashed Ellis bandsaw which I refurbished. It's nice for miters...




For the Makita dry cut saw I made a swivel base to enhance use of the miter function





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[swavescatter]

That's an interesting idea. I have tablesaw....not an ideal situation, but it might get me through an upcoming project...

In a pinch I would definitely go with a thin cut-off wheel on an angle grinder over a table saw with metal blade. It's hard enough to get accurate cuts with a purpose built Evo saw. For just a few cuts, angle grinder works great.

 

[Ign]

I’ve had:
an abrasive chop saw
A dry cut saw
Scotchman 350mm cold saw
Import 7x12 band saw
USA made 9x12 band saw

Chop saw was the first to go, too messy, inaccurate and loud
Dry cut saw was ok, cut fast, reasonably accurate. Downside: very loud and the chips it throws go everywhere. Blades had decent life but once you lost a tooth, they went downhill really fast.Sold it, should have kept it for general use.
Cold saw: most accurate, also the most expensive machine, most expensive blades, multiple tooth count blades for different wall thicknesses. Requires coolant that gets everywhere. Blades can be resharpened infinitely at a reasonable cost if there isn’t and stripped teeth. If teeth are stripped, the blade has to be ground down until the lowest spot is now the highest spot. At that point you can have a different number of teeth from original ground. 3 phase power or converter required. Mitering head made cutting angles and returning to 90* a breeze. Gave this saw to a buddy with a big shop and have decent access to it when needed.
I’m currently using the import 7x12 which is decent. A good blade and care adjusting the down feed rate gives a straight cut that works well with a MIG gun with .035 and some decent squares and clamps
Downside: angle cut require moving the fence and resquaring when returning to 90*. This downside is shared by the dry cut saws as well. Doing this a few times and you start looking at ways to complete your project and not use angle cuts
The 9x12 is in storage, pretty much the same as the 7x12, just higher capacity.

Not knowing your project or the frequency you do metalwork, I’d look for a small bandsaw. It will be slower and probably less accurate than a dry cut saw but replacement blades are about 1/4 the price of a dry cut blade and are much more forgiving. Chips are much more contained than the dry cut saw and so much quieter.

Dry cut saws roll the chip and all the heat goes into the chip and gets flung. The hot chips will embed themselves in the soles of your shoes/boots. Gloves, eye protection( tight fitting goggles work best), and ear protection are an absolute must, long sleeves aren’t a bad idea.

Similar path for me....but I have the Grizzly 5x6" swivel head bandsaw I now use for miter cuts whenever possible, that way the trusty 7x12" stays at 90

The Grizzly is small enough I just shove it against the wall when not in use. Granted, capacity ain't great, especially when the head is swiveled, but it's enough for a lot of fab unless you're into heavy industry.

Perhaps the best of both worlds would be a fixed 7x12 and a swivel head 7x12, if budget and space allow.

Beyond that I'm always intrigued at the lengths people will go trying to find creative, expensive and unreliable means to cut steel, when ultimately they settle on a bandsaw (as you and I have) as being the best mix of economy, accuracy, reliability and accessibility (ie 110V AC good enough at least up through 7x12).....oh and versatility as they'll cut anything but hardened material

 

[mark-NJ]

hmmm......bandsaw. Hadn't thought about that option. I have access to a big one at work that I often use, but it's old, abused & worn out. It can cut, but the trueness of the cuts is so-so.

I don't do all that much metal work, but when I do, I need my cuts to be true, especially 45 cuts for making good, true 90 welds. Maybe a small bench model might be the answer...

 

[strength_and_power]

hmmm......bandsaw. Hadn't thought about that option. I have access to a big one at work that I often use, but it's old, abused & worn out. It can cut, but the trueness of the cuts is so-so.

I don't do all that much metal work, but when I do, I need my cuts to be true, especially 45 cuts for making good, true 90 welds. Maybe a small bench model might be the answer...

This is in the same price range as an evolution dry cut saw. No actual experience with this saw but overall my experience with Grizzly products have good


https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-5-portable-metal-cutting-bandsaw/g0885


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[mark-NJ]

I like Grizzly, too.

That said, I found a 5" WEN on craigslist for cheap with very little use on it. Comes with spare (new) bi-metal blades, as well. I'm going to look at it this afternoon. Comparing specs, it look to be virtually identical to the Grizzly in your link above. If it's as advertised, I'll be bringing it home.

News at 11....

 

[Renegade1LI]

I’ll be honest since i got this grizzly g0613 mitering bandsaw i haven’t used the cut off saw since, cuts are true and repeatable with the right blade the cut quality is very good.

 

[tarmy]

I have the DeWalt 14” cut off saw with the carbide blade. Used it for years and served me well. As noted, it is 400 something bucks, loud, messy, effective...and loud!

Bought this a few years ago and I am pretty sure I have not used the cut off since...




Anybody want a good deal on the DeWalt?

 

[larry4406]

I have the DeWalt 14” cut off saw with the carbide blade. Used it for years and served me well. As noted, it is 400 something bucks, loud, messy, effective...and loud!

Bought this a few years ago and I am pretty sure I have not used the cut off since...




Anybody want a good deal on the DeWalt?

Yikes! That HEM saw NG160 is $2k!

 

[tarmy]

Yikes! That HEM saw NG160 is $2k!

No way...I bought it new a few years ago for under 1k...where the hell is that for 2k?

I will say that it is very accurate and quiet...

 

[lis2323]

Trick Tools advertises it for $2K


Awesome saw for $1K !!! Only miters to one side, correct?


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[tarmy]

Trick Tools advertises it for $2K


Awesome saw for $1K !!! Only miters to one side, correct?


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I bought it from them...geez...they sure went up a lot...

Yes, on the miter. Hasn’t been an issue thus far. I really wanted the Ellis1600...but just did not have the room. This is a great saw...it get used a lot.

 

[PugetDude]

I bought a 14" Evolution Cold Saw direct from the Manufacturer
Factory refurbished
$180
$75 shipping (ouch)

Replaced my anemic 14" Dewalt Abrasive Cutoff saw.
So far I love it.

 

[Steve_P]

I have the Morse Metal Devil and like it. It uses a heavy cast base, not stamped steel, and the blade speed is 1300 RPM. It is more $ than a lot of the competition, but they also get complaints about the stamped bases, crappy vises, etc. I don't use it enough to have an idea of long term durability, I'm still on my first blade, but it is well made and cuts beautifully. The blades are expensive. You will still need your abrasive chop saw if you want to cut something hard, but that should be rare or never. Since I didn't really need this, I put it in my saved for later on Amazon and bought it on a price drop. I also bought the v-blocks for the vise (recommended)

 

[mark-NJ]

SCORE! I just got the WEN that I mentioned in post #29, above. $150, great shape, extra blades....very happy!

I've only done a handful of test cuts, but I'm already wondering if I'll ever use the abrasive chop saw ever again!

 

[4miller1]

Wow nice saw. At a great price.

 

[strength_and_power]

SCORE! I just got the WEN that I mentioned in post #29, above. $150, great shape, extra blades....very happy!

I've only done a handful of test cuts, but I'm already wondering if I'll ever use the abrasive chop saw ever again!

Nice score. Since the allotted budget was around $400, sounds like you got $250 leftover to pick up some squares, clamps or something else.


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